When will we see a new brose motor

[Rusty]

What cells is he using to get those numbers? The 504Wh batteries are made up of 3500mAh cells already.

Pretty certain he said the batteries in both the Shimano & Brose packs were packed with 2400 or 2500 Mah. He is using Panasonic 3800Mah I believe.
@Mcharza I think he mentioned using 21700s in another battery pack but that one had room to fit the extra 1mm per battery. I think he modified the frame they fitted as the original had a fair bit of space between the cells.
Next time I am up there I will ask if he can take a few pics when he does one.

 

[NGreen]

It's FEAR ! Fear we're not making the right decision, getting the best value for money, the most appropriate bike for us. Marketing gives the impression that every bike is the best bike .. in reality, for most people they're just all really good and it probably doesn't make that much difference and the colour is probably more important in our day to day lives ..

But did I get the right colour .....

so true. I’m guilty of comparing spec sheets though. I have to remind myself that just about every bike out there is capable of so more than I’m able to throw at it. I did the same thing when I bought my first sport bike. I went back and forth between Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, etc.... then when I was honest with myself they all were so far above my skill level it didn’t mater and I just bought the gsxr because I liked the way it looked ?

 

[Doomanic]

Pretty certain he said the batteries in both the Shimano & Brose packs were packed with 2400 or 2500 Mah. He is using Panasonic 3800Mah I believe.
@Mcharza I think he mentioned using 21700s in another battery pack but that one had room to fit the extra 1mm per battery. I think he modified the frame they fitted as the original had a fair bit of space between the cells.
Next time I am up there I will ask if he can take a few pics when he does one.

To get 504Wh out of a 40 cell battery made up of 18650s (like Bosch, Shimano and M1 Spesh) you need to use 3500mAh cells. A pack made up of 3800mAh cells would be 547Wh.
A 21700 is significantly bigger than an 18650. The first two digits are the diameter and the second two digits are the length, so 21mm*70mm compared to 18mm*65mm.

 

[Pat2203]

One just needs to look at the 18650 battery. While most are in the 2000-2600mah range there are some up to 4500mah but they are prone to exploding and have a much higher general failure rate than the lower spec ones. LG has a wonderful 3000mah that is proving to be very reliable.
A local repacker that specialises in power tools has done a few Shimano and Speshy repacks with great success. Has a 50-60% increase in capacity so somewhere in the 700Wh range in the same form factor with virtually no weight penalty.
His biggest bitch is that both the Shimano & Spashy battery packs use well known suppliers such as Hitachi but are using the Chinese sourced cells and not the Japanese ones. Apparently you can tell where they come from based on whether they have a shiny or matte cover. The Chinese cells have a failure rate in the early percentage range - 2-5% I think he said, where the Japanese ones only have a .5% failure rate. The cost difference to him is like 40c per cell but he reckons someone like Shimano would only pay maybe 4c more based on volume.
Even at 40c per cell that is only $16 - on something sold at a price point 3-4 times more than they should be. He is of the opinion they charge so much for replacement battery packs to cover their warranty failures.

So you know where I can get a Shimano battery pack re packed with higher wh ie from 504 to 700 ish ??? Address name phone number etc etc

 

[Doomanic]

Rusty is in NZ so postage might be an issue...

 

[Rusty]

So you know where I can get a Shimano battery pack re packed with higher wh ie from 504 to 700 ish ??? Address name phone number etc etc

Postage probably cost as much as the job.
My sister sent me an item from back home and it was about $10 USD - to return it as it was wrong was going to cost me $45 NZD

You can look locally thought. Find someone that does battery repacks for tradies and they can take a look and advise.

 

[Rusty]

To get 504Wh out of a 40 cell battery made up of 18650s (like Bosch, Shimano and M1 Spesh) you need to use 3500mAh cells. A pack made up of 3800mAh cells would be 547Wh.
A 21700 is significantly bigger than an 18650. The first two digits are the diameter and the second two digits are the length, so 21mm*70mm compared to 18mm*65mm.

There is actually 50 cells in a Shimano battery pack. They are 10 batteries per unit that are wired in series and 5 units that are connected in parallel .

 

[Doomanic]

Really? I can’t find any info to indicate what the cell configuration is but I’ll be amazed if it is 50 cells purely based on the physical size of the battery. To hold 25% more cells than a Bosch battery that is definitely 40 cells it would need to be approximately 25% bigger. It is in fact slightly smaller than the Bosch battery.

 

[Rusty]

Actually a great post here by @Spiff

Shimano Battery construction and issues

Found it just now when I was tryting to find a reference photo for you.

 

[Doomanic]

I was afraid you'd link that. He's just guessing.

I've also done some digging;
An 18650 weighs a minimum of 42g. 50 cells would therefore weigh at least 2.1KG. The pack weight is 2.6KG leaving only 500g for the BMS, plastic case and metal fasteners. IMO that's unlikely but I'm happy to be proven wrong by some reliable data.

 

[Doomanic]

A thought has just occurred to me while I was showering; are you referring to the external frame battery or the old-style internal battery, sometimes referred to as the “Snake”? (Calm down Zimmer)

That has 6 sections and could indeed be 50 cells although I can’t for the life of me imagine why Shimano accepted the weight and cost penalty without taking the opportunity to make it a higher capacity

 

[Rusty]

No idea. The one I seen was not in a case and looked like 50 cells to me.
Found a couple vids a while back when we were discussing this and they look a similar cell layout.
Technically speaking, to get the voltage and Wh required it would have top be a mix of series & parallel.

 

[Pat2203]

Rusty is in NZ so postage might be an issue...

Perhaps he could help with procurement of parts etc for a self build

 

[Pat2203]

Postage probably cost as much as the job.
My sister sent me an item from back home and it was about $10 USD - to return it as it was wrong was going to cost me $45 NZD

You can look locally thought. Find someone that does battery repacks for tradies and they can take a look and advise.

Perhaps a list of parts cell sizes etc and address or website for parts perhaps China I would imagine I have an internal Shimano 504wh battery cheers buddy

 

[Rusty]

Replacing cells is not an easy job to do. There are a lot of issues relating to how delicate the circuitry is and I understand it is real easy to kill cells when reassembling. The crowd I visited use a special spot welder that snap heats the solder then blows some sort of gas to chill things instantly.
He uses Panasonic cells mostly I think and either LG or Hitachi as alternatives. Always uses Japanese sourced cells unless they are not available, where he uses Korean cells. Never uses Chinese ones, even from the manufacturers he sticks with as failure rate is too high.

 

[wepn]

Replacing cells is not an easy job to do.

Designing them to be impossible to replace - that’s difficult but not impossible.

 

[Rusty]

True enough @wepn. I remember doing a few repacks back when the cheap Chinese LED lights started coming on the market. We used a small sandblasting cabinet as our soldering area so we had some protection in case of one going bang.
Buddys hands were numb for an hour or so when one did pop.

 

[wepn]

True enough @wepn. I remember doing a few repacks back when the cheap Chinese LED lights started coming on the market. We used a small sandblasting cabinet as our soldering area so we had some protection in case of one going bang.
Buddys hands were numb for an hour or so when one did pop.

Very good point. There are reasonable safety justifications for designing battery packs that are impossible to repack though cell level diagnostics & no weld replaceable modules would make much more sense - at least to me.

 

[Pat2203]

Replacing cells is not an easy job to do. There are a lot of issues relating to how delicate the circuitry is and I understand it is real easy to kill cells when reassembling. The crowd I visited use a special spot welder that snap heats the solder then blows some sort of gas to chill things instantly.
He uses Panasonic cells mostly I think and either LG or Hitachi as alternatives. Always uses Japanese sourced cells unless they are not available, where he uses Korean cells. Never uses Chinese ones, even from the manufacturers he sticks with as failure rate is too high.

This looks like a good system

 

[Rusty]

Looks good, but definitely bulkier than the spot welded tabs.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Looks good, but definitely bulkier than the spot welded tabs.

Is it me , or does it look like someone combined Lego with mechano ? Lechano ?mechago ?

 

[andiandifly]

I want to change the cells in a Specialized Turbo battery. For the time i take out the cells i have no voltage to the bms. When I put in the New cells i have around 3,6v to the bms again. Does the bms work after chaning the New cells because it knows that the voltage Was for a while 0V so it thinks the battery is dead?