Wheelies

[Wheelie_King]

Did somebody say "Wheelie"

 

[Mikerb]

Do you have the means to video yourself? Find some level ground and set up a gopro or phone on a tripod. My guess is your body position/technique is in reality very different to your perception. Video can help you analyse and hopefully correct. If your arms are bent and chest low when your front wheel is at the highest you can get it you can see why it slams back down.

 

[Gary]

On the pedal bike, I simply don't produce enough torque to get the front wheel up more than a foot on level ground

That's where gearing comes in.
I find it hard to believe on a modern bike you don't have low enough gearing to produce the torque to raise the front wheel.

even when my timing is spot on

it probably (definitely)isn't. Not pedalling AND weight shift anyway. One (or both) are way off.

When it isn't, the front wheel barely leaves the ground at all. In all cases, the wheel is on the ground again by the bottom of the first pedal stroke.

Pretty much proven by the above statement.

My problem is most likely timing on the emtb, since the assist should be able to make up for my lack of torque.

your problem is DEFINITELY timing AND weight shift.
With both of these sorted you shouldn't even need the motor to be switched on to raise the front wheel to balance point.

That assist on my bike is provided through a clutch, which introduces a delay if I coast up to the point where I want to start the wheelie. Compensating for the clutch delay has proven very difficult. Only way around that is to pedal just enough to keep the clutch engaged instead of coasting. But then I get going too fast, and can't get any lift from pedaling.

You're massively overthinking this part. spend time (on ANY bike) gaining the timing and weight shift technique required. Once you have it locked in it'll then be transferrable to absolutely any bike (Barring tandems) there's pretty much no bike i can't wheelie.
- If you read back through this very thread I previously described the technique.

Assisted or not, I get no front wheel lift from pedaling at speeds much over 3 MPH.

and?
There's absolutlely nothing wrong with beginning to raise your front wheel while travelling at at 3mph. infact. Slow wheelie practice will improve your balance and ability to maintain balance point far more than higher speed wheelying will.

 

[andytiedye]

Do you have the means to video yourself

I did video myself on the old (non-e) hardtail. My arms are fully extended at the zenith and remain fully extended as the bike pulls me forward and down.

That's where gearing comes in.
I find it hard to believe on a modern bike you don't have low enough gearing to produce the torque to raise the front wheel.

In the low gears it acts more like I'm in too low a gear (spin out), in the higher gears it acts more like I'm in too high a gear, but I get the symptoms of both in varying degrees in every gear.

even when my timing is spot on

it probably (definitely)isn't. Not pedalling AND weight shift anyway. One (or both) are way off.
Pretty much proven by the above statement.
your problem is DEFINITELY timing AND weight shift.
With both of these sorted you shouldn't even need the motor to be switched on to raise the front wheel to balance point.

The problem with the weight shift is that I am short, so I can't shift my weight as far as you can.

That assist on my bike is provided through a clutch, which introduces a delay if I coast up to the point where I want to start the wheelie. Compensating for the clutch delay has proven very difficult. Only way around that is to pedal just enough to keep the clutch engaged instead of coasting. But then I get going too fast, and can't get any lift from pedaling.

You're massively overthinking this part. spend time (on ANY bike) gaining the timing and weight shift technique required. Once you have it locked in it'll then be transferrable to absolutely any bike (Barring tandems) there's pretty much no bike i can't wheelie.

Obviously power does come into it somewhere or you'd be able to do tandems too.
There are others who can wheelie a BMX bike but not anything bigger.

- If you read back through this very thread I previously described the technique.

That technique is what I am attempting to do. The clutch most certainly is screwing around with my timing since it introduces a delay before the assist kicks in. How would you compensate for that if you were not strong enough to wheelie a heavy ebike without any help from the assist? For that matter, if you are strong enough to get the wheel up unassisted, would you loop out when the assist cut in 1/2 second later?

Assisted or not, I get no front wheel lift from pedaling at speeds much over 3 MPH.

There's absolutlely nothing wrong with beginning to raise your front wheel while travelling at at 3mph. infact. Slow wheelie practice will improve your balance and ability to maintain balance point far more than higher speed wheelying will.

But my speed doesn't stay under 3 MPH for long, and once it exceeds that, pedaling no longer lifts the front wheel and down it goes.

 

[Wheelie_King]

Try on a hill. Nothing too steep, probably 5%. The gradient does 2 things. First you’re already at an angle so you’ve got a head start, second, the gradient helps stop the bike running away so it’s easier to learn around or just below the balance point. I can wheelie pretty far on the flat, but I can wheelie until I run out of road on a hill.
You can also try using something to help with the pop. Needs to be 3-5cm like a piece of wood, block or very low kerb. You’re back wheel will likely hit what you’re using, don’t worry about that, it will help with the first stage of getting it up.... ooer matron!
And although it may feel like a long way off, get used to having a finger on the back brake ready for when my amazing advice has you falling off the back of the wheelie ?

 

[Wheelie_King]

p.s. think/be like a kid. This sort of thing takes daily practise for weeks and weeks. Kids don’t worry about that, they just try until they can do it. Have fun!

 

[Chubba]

Few vids here, been trying this myself. I think i need to get some flats to not feel so nervous trying this.

 

[Gary]

Manuals aren't the same as wheelies.
By all means learn both though.

 

[Chubba]

Manuals aren't the same as wheelies.
By all means learn both though.

Whoops forgot to add the Wheelie - corrected.

 

[Gary]

Whoops forgot to add the Wheelie - corrected.

I've taught loads of folk wheelies and manuals over the years.
If you can't do either at all I'd almost always recommend trying to learn wheelies first as it's an easier process to learn than a manual and being compitent at wheelies is a massive advantage when learning mannys.
Everyone's different though. Some folk you teach just click with everything you say and need a little encouragement and a few pointers/tips and a little correction to help them on their way while others need far more guidance, every step broken right down to basics and each step drilled and practiced repeatedly otherwise information overload happens and anxiety can causes a mental block. These folk need a long time, patience and plenty breaks from the learning process to get there.

 

[Chubba]

I've taught loads of folk wheelies and manuals over the years.
If you can't do either at all I'd almost always recommend trying to learn wheelies first as it's an easier process to learn than a manual and being compitent at wheelies is a massive advantage when learning mannys.
Everyone's different though. Some folk you teach just click with everything you say and need a little encouragement and a few pointers/tips and a little correction to help them on their way while others need far more guidance, every step broken right down to basics and each step drilled and practiced repeatedly otherwise information overload happens and anxiety can causes a mental block. These folk need a long time, patience and plenty breaks from the learning process to get there.

Thanks, I’ll try the wheelie then. Just doing it on grass now with sneakers as I have clips and don’t want to break anything. At our age takes a long time to heal!

 

[andytiedye]

I thought I could get around the clutch issue by pedaling with the brakes on prior to starting the wheelie attempt, then releasing them. Unfortunately, if I brake hard enough to keep my speed under 3 MPH, the assist cuts in and out randomly, making any start from there highly nondeterministic.

 

[Gary]

Simply use an uphill gradient to keep your speed low.
This also means you have to be less relient on the rear brake to stop you looping out.
Maybe learn wheelies on a regular bike first if the motor assist is too much of a headfuck.

 

[andytiedye]

Simply use an uphill gradient to keep your speed low.
This also means you have to be less relient on the rear brake to stop you looping out.
Maybe learn wheelies on a regular bike first if the motor assist is too much of a headfuck.

I have been doing nearly all my wheelie practice uphill from the start. I can barely get the wheel off the ground going downhill, with all the extra weight on it.

I tried for a long time to do it on regular mountain bikes and failed. The extra power afforded by the ebike is my only hope of doing it at all.

Your bike has the same Shimano STEPS system, so it must have the same clutch. How do you prevent it from messing with your timing?

 

[Gary]

It sounds like you don't have the correct timing or the correct technique or correct weight shift yet. so there's little point looking for a way to blame the motor.
Once you can wheelie a bike competently you can wheelie pretty much any bike with or without a motor because you'll have the timing and weight shift dialled so there's only a slight re-calibration required from bike to bike. The only real differences an Emtb brings are the increased weight and slight disconnection from your pedal stroke to the chain torque that the motor outputs to the rear wheel.
If you can wheelie a regular bike compitently you'll be able to wheelie an Emtb switched off.