Vitus E-Sommet VR

[Gary]

Agree what you say about the Decoy as stock. However I intend to raise the Decoy's forks to 180mm and then run 2x 27.5x2.5-6 wheels on it which will keep a similar head angle, but lower the BB.

Yeah. I discussed doing the same in the YT thread.

Can stick it in High mode if its too low.

it won't be. it'll be quite a bit higher than the E-sommet.

The sus curve of the Decoy is supposed to be very progressive, so it will suit a coil, where as the e-sommet is very linear

The E-sommet LC is not linear.
but i agree with you about the YT being based on the Capra should be very progressive, just don't know by how much. Do you have figures or a graph of the Decoy LC?

Here's the E-sommet's LC

you can see straight away why a couple of tokens are fitted as stock

So I'm guessing/hoping the decoy is 1/2 way between a esommet and kenevo.

I still don't think it will be. IMO It'll actually be closer to an E-sommet with a coil shock with a good supportive custom tune.
I'd like to hear what tune Brayton has on his. particuarly whether the Ohlins has anything non spec.

Rob said that the decoy pro race felt a lot like the e-sommet.

yeah. I'd expect it to. Especially in Rob sizes

I have a feeling* the Kenevo's LC is actually going to look quite similar to the E-sommets.
do you have any info on it to compare?

* it's just a feeling though. partly from riding one, and partly from specializeds' history with the enduro and Demo platform

 

[Richt20000]

The E-sommet LC is not linear.
but i agree with you about the YT being based on the Capra should be very progressive, just don't know by how much. Do you have figures or a graph of the Decoy LC?

Here's the E-sommet's LC

you can see straight away why a couple of tokens are fitted as stock

....

I have a feeling* the Kenevo's LC is actually going to look quite similar to the E-sommets.
do you have any info on it to compare?

* it's just a feeling though. partly from riding one, and partly from specializeds' history with the enduro and Demo platform

No I don't have any graphs. I said the e-sommet is linear because I seem to blow through the travel quickly even with all the tocken. Plus Vitus said that the frame doesn't suit a coil due to how linear the design was. I stand corrected

Only way to find out I guess is wait until mid may until its possible to ride a decoy.

Lets keep one thing straight through - this is a first world problem - the E-Sommet is an incredible bike (even more so for the money). as is the kenevo and I am sure (based on my 2014 and 2018 capra and 2016 jeffsy ownership) the decoy will be too.

 

[Gary]

I said the e-sommet is linear because I seem to blow through the travel quickly even with all the tocken.

what (stood over the BB axle) sag % were you running?

I found 27% sag optimum for me (playful/poppy/supportive preference over soft n plowy)
2 tokens
Felt far from linear. didn't ever blow through midstroke.
Zero trapdooring.

I run far more sag on all my coil suspended DH bikes.
(also set-up pretty playfully)

 

[Gary]

Plus Vitus said that the frame doesn't suit a coil due to how linear the design was. I stand corrected

no. Vitus are correct
it isn't a very progressive curve.
look at the numbers ^^

 

[Gary]

Lets keep one thing straight through - this is a first world problem

Hahah

massively

but they're our toys!
they NEED discussed in minutae

 

[Richt20000]

what (stood over the BB axle) sag % were you running?

I found 27% sag optimum for me (playful/poppy/supportive preference over soft n plowy)
2 tokens
Felt far from linear. didn't ever blow through midstroke.
Zero trapdooring.

I run far more sag on all my coil suspended DH bikes.
(also set-up pretty playfully)

Was running about 30%
Down to the mm is pretty tricky to measure due to where the shock is.

I’m not complaining - it wasn’t tooo linear, just more linear than other bike / shock combos I’ve ridden.

 

[Gary]

Yeah I probably started off initially around 30%
and went firmer in search of more support/pop.

Oddly I run my Capra at very similar % sag
Monarch+ rather than SDeluxe and no tokens though.
it's the poppiest bike I've ever owned.

There was a time not so long ago (early 00s) I wouldn't have considered an air shock at all and even ran coil on a 115mm travel bike.
Things have moved on drastically since. WC DHs are won on air shocks these days.

it's all choice though. choice is good.!

 

[Burnsie]

Yes, I have heard great things. Did you end up running a lot heavier spring? I'm on a 502lb spring which is perfect, and Chris@berkshire recommended I overweight to a 600 or 625 Simon spring. Quite happy with the stock spring at the moment so didn't upgrade...

I’m 118kg with all my kit on, running the 700 spring, loving the bike even more now!!

 

[Doomanic]

@Gary where do you get the leverage graphs?

 

[R120]

Hmm - I would not put the Vitus in the same category as the YT, for me the YT is far closer to the Levo. I know in Robs review he says it is far more downhill orinetated, but its no where near as DH orientated as a lot of other bikes out there. I think the E-Somett is one of the best descending bikes out there, motor or not, and once you have the suspension dialled in it flies.

I do find a I use the full range of rear suspension, but dont blow through it - I will be trying a coil in the next few moths to see how that feels.

It took me a while to adjust to how fast the bike is - what I found was that I was going way faster on the straights so that when I was getting to sharper corners etc I was slamming on the brakes too hard, and loosing momentum, which actually meant I was slower overall - this also made me think the bike was slow on tech trails - however when it all comes together and you get your braking dialled and understand how the weight of the bike both speeds it up and slows it down, then your gleaming the cube

I would put the YT down as a more playful and fun bike than a Levo, provided you have the skills to ride it as such - I like the idea of it as a more trail orientated bike than the Sommett, bearing in mind on mine I am running mine with 180mm Lyrik up front, so mine really is geared to going fast DH.

 

[Gary]

Just to put the record straight.
I don't think the Decoy would be the bike for me at all in stock form with the 29" front wheel.
With the changes I mentioned it'd be just as capable as the E-sommet albeit with a half inch higher BB and couple of mm shorter stays.

 

[Richt20000]

Hmm - I would not put the Vitus in the same category as the YT, for me the YT is far closer to the Levo. I know in Robs review he says it is far more downhill orinetated, but its no where near as DH orientated as a lot of other bikes out there. I

Just to put the record straight.
I don't think the Decoy would be the bike for me at all in stock form with the 29" front wheel.
With the changes I mentioned it'd be just as capable as the E-sommet albeit with a half inch higher BB and couple of mm shorter stays.

What makes you think the bb would be higher if running 27.5x2.5-6 front and rear ?
Stock decoy testers were complaining of pedal strikes also... (not challenging - I think were on the same idea/page)

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Fun fact: YT would have specced the Decoy with a 170mm Fox 36 if they made an Ebike specific version. But they don’t. So they went with 160.

 

[Gary]

@Richt20000

"What makes you think the bb would be higher if running 27.5x2.5-6 front and rear ?
Stock decoy testers were complaining of pedal strikes also... (not challenging - I think were on the same idea/page) "

I meant the Decoy's BB will be higher than the E-sommet's BB.
it's higher stock on the Decoy by a fair bit.
and it'll remain higher with a 180mm fork and 27.5x2.5 Maxxis DHF/DHRII or 27.5x2.35 Schwalbe MM

Geometry with the fork raised to 180mm, a 27.5" front wheel and those tyres will remain really really close to stock with a 29X2.5 front wheel and the fork at 160mm.
*tiny bit bit slacker and minisculely higher BB.

For numbers check my sums on the actual Decoy thread from back when the bike was announced..

As for the BB height/pedal strike whinging..
most folk (testers and journos included) can't ride low BB bikes. So they tend to blame the BB height rather than actually spending some time getting used to it, looking where they're going, reading the terrain ahead and timing pedal strokes between undulations, ruts, holes and obsticles.
Ebikers in general are really really bad at the above wanting to blindly pedal at stuff because of the assistance. Loads are resorting to fitting extremely short cranks rather than learn how to ride a bike with a decent BB height properly. I'm not your typical Ebike rider. I don't even have one just now. and don't miss it in the slightest.

the Esommet's BB is low... far lower than any other Emtb out there. (and one of the biggest reasons I love the bike). But it's actually nowhere near as low as my 170mm Enduro bike OR either of my two DH bikes. I've been riding bikes this low for over 15 years though so don't really ever get pedal strike and certainly don't whinge about low BB heights or cranks being too long.

Obviously replacing the big 2.8 rear tyre on the Decoy with a far more sensible 2.5/2.35 will lower and slacken the bike as well.
it still won't be as low as the Sommet though.

 

[RocketMagnet]

My E Sommet VR has more pedal clearance than my Santa Cruz HTLt. I did have a few pedal strikes initially on the Sommet but that was the boosts of power catching me out in techy stuff putting my pedal in an unexpected place but once I got used to it the strikes stopped. Basically if your regularly pedal striking on the Sommet it's user error not Crank length or BB height IMO.
We all pedal strike from time to time but like I've said I've never once blamed the bike I was on.

 

[Gary]

My E Sommet VR has more pedal clearance than my Santa Cruz HTLt.

Have you lowered the Hightower? (Genuine interest in Geo/travel modifications)
Not disputing you (as geometry charts aren't always correct) but on the SC geometry chart it's BB 10mm higher than my E-Sommet (327mm) and has less travel f & r..
BB drop is greater. But that's because BB drop is measured from wheel axle height.
the fact it bottoms out 10mm earlier will also mean it rides higher.

 

[RocketMagnet]

Have you lowered the Hightower? (Genuine interest in Geo/travel modifications)
Not disputing you (as geometry charts aren't always correct) but on the SC geometry chart it's BB 10mm higher than my E-Sommet (327mm) and has less travel f & r..
BB drop is greater. But that's because BB drop is measured from wheel axle height.
the fact it bottoms out 10mm earlier will also mean it rides higher.

No it's standard.. I was measuring from the crank arm to the ground for pedal clearance not bb height.. obviously 165 vs 175 cranks. I've got the SC in bits atm servicing shock/fork but the SC crank was definitely closer to the ground. When I get it back together (too hungover to finish it off today) i'll note the measurements down BB + crank clearance.

 

[R120]

Fun fact: YT would have specced the Decoy with a 170mm Fox 36 if they made an Ebike specific version. But they don’t. So they went with 160.

Tom Cardy has a 170mm EBike Specific Fox 36 on his Haibike?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Tom Cardy has a 170mm EBike Specific Fox 36 on his Haibike?

Is it a 27?

 

[R120]

Is it a 27?

 

[R120]

Though I really don't get the point in getting the E-Specific fork over the normal one

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Though I really don't get the point in getting the E-Specific fork over the normal one

Fox say that the Ebike forks have a 2mm thicker stanchion over the regular 36 and a thicker steerer.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

View attachment 12936

Can’t see a 170mm listed anywhere.

 

[Gary]

I like Tom Cardy
But 26kilos?
no fanx

E bike specific beefed up chassis' is kind of a gimick.
Just like overly tough siedwall tyres and overly agressive treads and super soft compounds.
unless of course you are doing more mental/faster riding than the best DH/SS/FR/duro riders in the world are managing on normal Lyriks/36s

 

[Gary]

2mm thicker stanchion

that's actually crazy thick

 

[R120]

Can’t see a 170mm listed anywhere.

No neither can I, but it may be he has a tweaked fork from Silverfish, as he is sponsored by Fox.

 

[RocketMagnet]

Mixed marketing messages I feel, on one hand were told that the expensive (generally lighter) forks are just as strong or even stronger than the cheaper variants. We are told they are more expensive because of more expensive materials, tolerances and extra machining to reduce weight (makes sense more complex machining massively increases the cost). Now were told they need extra beef to deal with and extra 7-10 kg bike weight?

Another marketing thing I've observed recently is .. we put a cheap fork on because its actually better as it's thicker/heavier so stronger... yet the high end versions are all festooned with Kashima etc

I've broken just about everything on a bike, snapped a couple of frames but never have I ever snapped a fork but I've seen it happen to be fair... but snapping or lots of twang on a "standard" Lyrik or a Fox36 .. really?

Running the stock Lyrik and it's been fantastic, I still need to add a volume spacer according to the shockwiz but it's really well behaved and having High and low speed compression has really helped me dial it in.. what I'm getting at is modern forks are very adjustable so E-Bike specific seems a bit unnecessary to me... but if companies can value add they will.

 

[R120]

I have 180MM Lyric RC2's on my Sommett, and 150MM Fox Factory 36's on the Sentier, and have flung the bike down the hill pretty hard both with and without me on it and never thought about needing a burlier fork. The 36 on the hardtail takes a proper hammering too, I regularly use most of the travel.

 

[Gary]

the stanchion wall thickness of a 2002 Marzochi monster T (pretty much the stiffest most overbuilt DH race/Freeride/hucking fork ever produced) was just 2mm.
I still have a set. The fork is 170mm and weighs 9lb

I don't know what the wall thickness of a standard 36 is but even if it's in the region of 1.25-1.5mm adding 2mm to that upping it to over 3.5mm is massively overkill.

Has anyone even broken a fork chassis on an Emtb yet?

 

[AdrianWindo]

Has anybody got one or ridden one of these? They look remarkably good value with BC discount from Chain Reaction.

Vitus

I agree they look awesome value however and I might have been unlucky, dealing with Wiggle is a nightmare. They delivered the wrong bike, courier didn’t show for bike return and you have to stay in all day, no bike replacement until is back in their warehouse, etc. Getting things sorted through a chat facility isn’t ideal. Just go into it with your eyes open......