Surely that's just like rolling out the red carpet for @Gary to have a perfect comeback about "carpark wankery" ??? ;-)
Upgrading 2018 Pike to 2020 Lyric Ultimate - Is it worth it
- Thread starter khorn
- Start date
Surely that's just like rolling out the red carpet for @Gary to have a perfect comeback about "carpark wankery" ??? ;-)
@khorn
I don't actually agree with @R120's thoughts on measuring dynamic sag.
Dynamic sag doesn't mean the bike has to be moving. it means the bike has to be loaded (rider on board)
Sag should be set after compressing suspension a few times and measured where it settles
what's actually important is replicating the same body position each time while measuring.
If I understand what he's saying properly and he's asking you to roll along while settling the bike (and setting the sag O-ring) you will struggle to replicate this and measure accurately.
There's no reason any bike would settle further into it's sag point while rolling (vs stationary) whatever it weighs. unless the rider is not centred (in which case sag would increase at one end and decrease at the other). There is a pretty big chance of getting a poor (inaccurate) reading though.
[edit] Also. sharing personal sag % numbers online is not really all that useful. Without also knowing the method used and exact rider position on the bike they won't really be accurately comparable to everyone elses.
I'm not actually asking for this information. Just making you aware of how difficult it is to comment on a strangers set-up shared online.
I don't actually agree with @R120's thoughts on measuring dynamic sag.
Dynamic sag doesn't mean the bike has to be moving. it means the bike has to be loaded (rider on board)
Sag should be set after compressing suspension a few times and measured where it settles
what's actually important is replicating the same body position each time while measuring.
If I understand what he's saying properly and he's asking you to roll along while settling the bike (and setting the sag O-ring) you will struggle to replicate this and measure accurately.
There's no reason any bike would settle further into it's sag point while rolling (vs stationary) whatever it weighs. unless the rider is not centred (in which case sag would increase at one end and decrease at the other). There is a pretty big chance of getting a poor (inaccurate) reading though.
[edit] Also. sharing personal sag % numbers online is not really all that useful. Without also knowing the method used and exact rider position on the bike they won't really be accurately comparable to everyone elses.
I'm not actually asking for this information. Just making you aware of how difficult it is to comment on a strangers set-up shared online.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #33
To be honest on totally flat asphalt road I saw at least 5% more compression of the fork by gently riding down the street so for sure there is difference between dynamic and static sag. Not that it changes anything but for sure riding further into the travel.
Karsten
@Gary I dont think we are necessarily talking at cross purposes - essentially what I am getting at, and I may not use the correct terminology because I am not an expert in this area, is that the real world sag when you are riding the bike will always be slightly deeper than that measured at standstill, and as you say cycling the suspension before measuring sag is critical.
I would agree that no two peoples perfect sag or suspension set up will be the same, but I do think that its critical to get the right starting point before tweaking everything else.
What I am saying is that in an ideal world I will set my sag rolling down a very gentle incline at walking pace, without having to put a pedal stroke in. What I tend to do is set up the static sag, then go to a local car park that has such an incline, do a lap of it throwing in some bunny hops etc, then set the o-rings in position, mount the bike holding on to a wall, let go of the wall and gently roll about 10 meters. I then check the sag.
I would agree that no two peoples perfect sag or suspension set up will be the same, but I do think that its critical to get the right starting point before tweaking everything else.
What I am saying is that in an ideal world I will set my sag rolling down a very gentle incline at walking pace, without having to put a pedal stroke in. What I tend to do is set up the static sag, then go to a local car park that has such an incline, do a lap of it throwing in some bunny hops etc, then set the o-rings in position, mount the bike holding on to a wall, let go of the wall and gently roll about 10 meters. I then check the sag.
To go back to the original question and simplify things :
YES. It's a nicer, better fork and I'm sure we'd all like a nicer better fork. You have the advantage though of a 2 for 1 win. You can use your existing fork to upgrade the wife's levo, where she'll notice an even bigger improvement and you can justify the change as a present for the wife.
Happy wife = Happy life.
Heading completely off tangent again, and please politely ignore it if it's stupid as it's the ramblings of someone who doesn't know anything. Have you tried rotating the bars 10 degrees forward ? This gives you a tiny movement forward with your weight but without putting extra strain/discomfort on the lower back as you're going up the same amount at the same time. The bars in theory would also then point your hands slightly more inwards where it would in theory (my theory - so possibly not real) make it easier to keep hold of the bars as even outward pressure would convert to downward grip ? Then play with the brake levers so your hand is in the optimum natural gripping position rather than the most comfortable braking position. For good measure, I will repeat " please politely ignore it if it's stupid".
steve_sordy
Wedding Crasher
Isn't that just the fork overcoming the static friction from the seals? And maybe the difference between cold damping fluid and warm?
I always set the suspension sag in the same way, and in a way that I believe that I can repeat. Then I ride the bike and usually find that I change the settings to get the feel I'm looking for. I record whatever I end up with. But after several months it has been known for me to start all over again and see what I end up with! Sometimes it's different, but not as often as I would have expected.
- Thread starter
- #37
I agree with Gary that it is very important to make changes during as same conditions as possible. Other vice you loose track of where you were and what you are ending up with. However I find it interesting that there is that much difference between setting sag in the shed and moving along on the street.
Karsten
guys guys...
Sag % is simply a reference point
and as such what is important is replicating the same rider position and measurement each time it is measured.
Adding in rolling along to your measurement process is just overcomplicating things and allowing even more chance of error.
Clue: it doesn't actually matter where the fork sits when rolling along compared to the position you measured it at standstill.
Because:
Sag measurement is simply a reference point.
Braking, and moving off both cause positional load change.
there's no need for this step.
by all means have a pogo around to warm up the fork and break stiction before beginning the measuring procedure against the wall though.
Sag % is simply a reference point
and as such what is important is replicating the same rider position and measurement each time it is measured.
Adding in rolling along to your measurement process is just overcomplicating things and allowing even more chance of error.
Clue: it doesn't actually matter where the fork sits when rolling along compared to the position you measured it at standstill.
Because:
Sag measurement is simply a reference point.
If I understand you correctly (maybe I don't) this is only going to cause the sort of inconsistencies I'm talking about.
Braking, and moving off both cause positional load change.
there's no need for this step.
by all means have a pogo around to warm up the fork and break stiction before beginning the measuring procedure against the wall though.
- Thread starter
- #39
Your suggestion is actually rather good regarding the handlebar but I’m already seeing my front axle in front of the handlebar by a good measure so I have plenty weight on the front end.
Wife is already very happy about her Levo(Fox 34 Factory) and I can afford the Lyrik but again, I would not buy if it did not make a difference
Karsten
Don't set up your bar roll/height/stem length for seated riding at all.
and don't listen to any nonsense about axle position while seated either (unless you have a condition that means you must ride seated most of the time)
If you're still seated you're unlikely to be on fast rough technical terrain at all and if you're cornering seated (where you need to weight the front wheel) you're not cornering fast.
and don't listen to any nonsense about axle position while seated either (unless you have a condition that means you must ride seated most of the time)
If you're still seated you're unlikely to be on fast rough technical terrain at all and if you're cornering seated (where you need to weight the front wheel) you're not cornering fast.
Well you might be right @Gary but before my adjustment i spent half the time washing the front wheel out and the other half the time fiddling with my fork. Until a freind who is a pro downhill racer gave me a starting point and since then my wheel doesnt wash out and my fork performs miles better.
So it might be nonsense to you but it was a game changer for me and i dont spend all my time sitting down either
So it might be nonsense to you but it was a game changer for me and i dont spend all my time sitting down either
I can't possibly comment on what your pro DH racer friend did. or why. (TBF sounds like he just set your bar roll to a neutral position)
Bear in mind the axle/bar position advice you're giving would change quite dramatically with a longer/shorter bike higher/lower BB higher/lower saddle height (inseam) and saddle fore and aft position.
Remaining seated while struggling for front wheel grip is bad technique unless you're climbing or also struggling for rear wheel grip on the flat. This is why setting up your bars for stood up riding makes way more sense on an mtb.
@khorn Just a thought. but are you braking a lot when you are finding most hand pain?
Bear in mind the axle/bar position advice you're giving would change quite dramatically with a longer/shorter bike higher/lower BB higher/lower saddle height (inseam) and saddle fore and aft position.
Remaining seated while struggling for front wheel grip is bad technique unless you're climbing or also struggling for rear wheel grip on the flat. This is why setting up your bars for stood up riding makes way more sense on an mtb.
Er. No. It is the other way around. By all means sit on your bike and lean forwards then backwards if you need to.
@khorn Just a thought. but are you braking a lot when you are finding most hand pain?
- Thread starter
- #45
Dave,
This is how I see axle, if behind bar I have to literally sit on the rear wheel. The more you move to the front, the more the axle will be ahead from my perspective. When in attack position my axle is just under the bar.
Karsten
- Thread starter
- #46
Gary,I can't possibly comment on what your pro DH racer friend did. or why. (TBF sounds like he just set your bar roll to a neutral position)
Bear in mind the axle/bar position advice you're giving would change quite dramatically with a longer/shorter bike higher/lower BB higher/lower saddle height (inseam) and saddle fore and aft position.
Remaining seated while struggling for front wheel grip is bad technique unless you're climbing or also struggling for rear wheel grip on the flat. This is why setting up your bars for stood up riding makes way more sense on an mtb.
Er. No. It is the other way around. By all means sit on your bike and lean forwards then backwards if you need to.
@khorn Just a thought. but are you braking a lot when you are finding most hand pain?
No pain while braking, the Hayes brakes are so powerful that it is strictly a 1 finger brake with perfect modulation and btw I use the front more than the back unless too fast into corners. My core is still strong so I stand up a lot.
Karsten
Yes sorry you are correct my bad
Swissrob
Well-known member
Pity we don't have Rockshox represented here by some company rep. If dyno testing was a possibility then ruling out some individual tech fault for your forks would be a good starting point. More than a few of us here are following these threads to try and (individually) value internal upgrades available.
- Thread starter
- #49
Did a small video during a ride today with focus on the fork. In the video one can clearly hear the chatter when riding on a rough surface and at the same time not much reaction from fork. Bigger bumps it handles perfectly. Am I over sensitive or is there indeed an issue?
Karsten
Karsten
- Thread starter
- #51
Everything is perfect, the rattling sound is basically the whole bike vibrating violently at a high frequency as the fork is not absorbing the smaller bumps. It is exactly like riding with a rigid fork and trust me, those vibrations are also in the handlebar and that is my issue.
Karsten
watching the fork it does look like its tracking ok but difficult to tell, have you tried swapping another fork in just to be sure its not something else?
I assume you have checked your motor bolts are tight?
I assume you have checked your motor bolts are tight?
- Thread starter
- #53
Everything is tight and btw the GoPro make it sounds a lot worse than it is. It is simply everything on the bike, Garmin, cables, frontend that shakes violently. As soon as bumps get bigger and I go into the mid-stroke, its dead silent again. Its like I having a rigid frontend until bumps gets bigger/deeper.
Karsten
- Thread starter
- #55
Yes I have Dave and I never had issues with it being sucked down. I have a 200 hours service kit underway and will do a complete service on Friday. If that doesn’t help I will buy a Lyric Ultimate 170 mm and will run a little extra sag.
Karsten
hope you get it sorted, all I can say is my lyric is superb at small bump sensitivity, I suffer from hand pain (arthritis) and the lyric fitted with a debonair spring certainly fixed it for me but it still needed some careful setting up and changing tyre pressure meant I had to tweak the fork a bit to keep the silky smooth ride.
Its probably not your problem but I found some carbon bars (and some ali ones) were too stiff and that would cause a loss of the small bump sensitivity, at least it did for me, for instance, some 35mm bars were really horrid
Its probably not your problem but I found some carbon bars (and some ali ones) were too stiff and that would cause a loss of the small bump sensitivity, at least it did for me, for instance, some 35mm bars were really horrid
- Thread starter
- #57
Thanks Dave, the Renthal carbon bar is actually rather flexible and much better than the Specialized one that came with the bike.
Karsten
- Thread starter
- #59
It’s like watching me on a slow Sunday ride
- Thread starter
- #60
I think I nailed it finally, yesterday I did a 200 hours service on the fork and was anal about everything from bleeding the Charger damper to clean all the small bits and pieces. I also used the new low friction oil that also comes in the 2.1 damper as well as bought some frigging expensive SKF low friction seals separately(they have a green colour). Took the bike for a ride today and even it was only small changes it changed the characteristics of the fork completely, butter smooth and very responsive. As a matter of fact I removed 1 of the tokens(1 left) and upped the pressure another 5 Psi too and I guess the result is a combination of everything - I did another video from a better angle where one can see both handlebar/hands as well as the fork - @Gary what do you say, it it tracking ok now from your perspective or can it be even better?
Karsten
Karsten
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