Upgrading 2018 Pike to 2020 Lyric Ultimate - Is it worth it

Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
Author
Subscriber
Mar 29, 2018
10,496
10,702
the internet
@khorn
I don't actually agree with @R120's thoughts on measuring dynamic sag.
Dynamic sag doesn't mean the bike has to be moving. it means the bike has to be loaded (rider on board)
Sag should be set after compressing suspension a few times and measured where it settles
what's actually important is replicating the same body position each time while measuring.
If I understand what he's saying properly and he's asking you to roll along while settling the bike (and setting the sag O-ring) you will struggle to replicate this and measure accurately.

There's no reason any bike would settle further into it's sag point while rolling (vs stationary) whatever it weighs. unless the rider is not centred (in which case sag would increase at one end and decrease at the other). There is a pretty big chance of getting a poor (inaccurate) reading though.

[edit] Also. sharing personal sag % numbers online is not really all that useful. Without also knowing the method used and exact rider position on the bike they won't really be accurately comparable to everyone elses.
I'm not actually asking for this information. Just making you aware of how difficult it is to comment on a strangers set-up shared online.
 
Last edited:

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
@khorn
I don't actually agree with @R120's thoughts on measuring dynamic sag.
Dynamic sag doesn't mean the bike has to be moving. it means the bike has to be loaded (rider on board)
Sag should be set after compressing suspension a few times and measured where it settles
what's actually important is replicating the same body position each time while measuring.
If I understand what he's saying properly and he's asking you to roll along while settling the bike (and setting the sag O-ring) you will struggle to replicate this and measure accurately.

There's no reason any bike would settle further into it's sag point while rolling (vs stationary) whatever it weighs. unless the rider is not centred (in which case sag would increase at one end and decrease at the other). There is a pretty big chance of getting a poor (inaccurate) reading though.

[edit] Also. sharing personal sag % numbers online is not really all that useful. Without also knowing the method used and exact rider position on the bike they won't really be accurately comparable to everyone elses.
I'm not actually asking for this information. Just making you aware of how difficult it is to comment on a strangers set-up shared online.
To be honest on totally flat asphalt road I saw at least 5% more compression of the fork by gently riding down the street so for sure there is difference between dynamic and static sag. Not that it changes anything but for sure riding further into the travel.

Karsten
 

R120

Moderator
Subscriber
Apr 13, 2018
7,819
9,190
Surrey
@Gary I dont think we are necessarily talking at cross purposes - essentially what I am getting at, and I may not use the correct terminology because I am not an expert in this area, is that the real world sag when you are riding the bike will always be slightly deeper than that measured at standstill, and as you say cycling the suspension before measuring sag is critical.

I would agree that no two peoples perfect sag or suspension set up will be the same, but I do think that its critical to get the right starting point before tweaking everything else.

What I am saying is that in an ideal world I will set my sag rolling down a very gentle incline at walking pace, without having to put a pedal stroke in. What I tend to do is set up the static sag, then go to a local car park that has such an incline, do a lap of it throwing in some bunny hops etc, then set the o-rings in position, mount the bike holding on to a wall, let go of the wall and gently roll about 10 meters. I then check the sag.
 

Zimmerframe

MUPPET
Subscriber
Jun 12, 2019
13,999
20,749
Brittany, France
Upgrading 2018 Pike to 2020 Lyric Ultimate - Is it worth it
.

To go back to the original question and simplify things :

YES. It's a nicer, better fork and I'm sure we'd all like a nicer better fork. You have the advantage though of a 2 for 1 win. You can use your existing fork to upgrade the wife's levo, where she'll notice an even bigger improvement and you can justify the change as a present for the wife.

Happy wife = Happy life.

Heading completely off tangent again, and please politely ignore it if it's stupid as it's the ramblings of someone who doesn't know anything. Have you tried rotating the bars 10 degrees forward ? This gives you a tiny movement forward with your weight but without putting extra strain/discomfort on the lower back as you're going up the same amount at the same time. The bars in theory would also then point your hands slightly more inwards where it would in theory (my theory - so possibly not real) make it easier to keep hold of the bars as even outward pressure would convert to downward grip ? Then play with the brake levers so your hand is in the optimum natural gripping position rather than the most comfortable braking position. For good measure, I will repeat " please politely ignore it if it's stupid".
 

steve_sordy

Wedding Crasher
Nov 5, 2018
8,930
9,269
Lincolnshire, UK
To be honest on totally flat asphalt road I saw at least 5% more compression of the fork by gently riding down the street so for sure there is difference between dynamic and static sag. Not that it changes anything but for sure riding further into the travel.

Karsten
Isn't that just the fork overcoming the static friction from the seals? And maybe the difference between cold damping fluid and warm?

I always set the suspension sag in the same way, and in a way that I believe that I can repeat. Then I ride the bike and usually find that I change the settings to get the feel I'm looking for. I record whatever I end up with. But after several months it has been known for me to start all over again and see what I end up with! Sometimes it's different, but not as often as I would have expected.
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
Isn't that just the fork overcoming the static friction from the seals? And maybe the difference between cold damping fluid and warm?

I always set the suspension sag in the same way, and in a way that I believe that I can repeat. Then I ride the bike and usually find that I change the settings to get the feel I'm looking for. I record whatever I end up with. But after several months it has been known for me to start all over again and see what I end up with! Sometimes it's different, but not as often as I would have expected.
I agree with Gary that it is very important to make changes during as same conditions as possible. Other vice you loose track of where you were and what you are ending up with. However I find it interesting that there is that much difference between setting sag in the shed and moving along on the street.

Karsten
 

Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
Author
Subscriber
Mar 29, 2018
10,496
10,702
the internet
guys guys...

Sag % is simply a reference point
and as such what is important is replicating the same rider position and measurement each time it is measured.

Adding in rolling along to your measurement process is just overcomplicating things and allowing even more chance of error.
Clue: it doesn't actually matter where the fork sits when rolling along compared to the position you measured it at standstill.
Because:
Sag measurement is simply a reference point.

and gently roll about 10 meters. I then check the sag.
If I understand you correctly (maybe I don't) this is only going to cause the sort of inconsistencies I'm talking about.
Braking, and moving off both cause positional load change.

there's no need for this step.

by all means have a pogo around to warm up the fork and break stiction before beginning the measuring procedure against the wall though.
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
To go back to the original question and simplify things :

YES. It's a nicer, better fork and I'm sure we'd all like a nicer better fork. You have the advantage though of a 2 for 1 win. You can use your existing fork to upgrade the wife's levo, where she'll notice an even bigger improvement and you can justify the change as a present for the wife.

Happy wife = Happy life.

Heading completely off tangent again, and please politely ignore it if it's stupid as it's the ramblings of someone who doesn't know anything. Have you tried rotating the bars 10 degrees forward ? This gives you a tiny movement forward with your weight but without putting extra strain/discomfort on the lower back as you're going up the same amount at the same time. The bars in theory would also then point your hands slightly more inwards where it would in theory (my theory - so possibly not real) make it easier to keep hold of the bars as even outward pressure would convert to downward grip ? Then play with the brake levers so your hand is in the optimum natural gripping position rather than the most comfortable braking position. For good measure, I will repeat " please politely ignore it if it's stupid".
Your suggestion is actually rather good regarding the handlebar but I’m already seeing my front axle in front of the handlebar by a good measure so I have plenty weight on the front end.

Wife is already very happy about her Levo(Fox 34 Factory) and I can afford the Lyrik but again, I would not buy if it did not make a difference ;)

Karsten
 

ccrdave

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Founding Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,421
1,125
uk
Er axle in front of handlebars means you are back not forward, axle behind bars means you are forward.
I always aim for axle below the bars ( cant see axle) when im riding seated
Well seems to work for me
 

Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
Author
Subscriber
Mar 29, 2018
10,496
10,702
the internet
Don't set up your bar roll/height/stem length for seated riding at all.
and don't listen to any nonsense about axle position while seated either (unless you have a condition that means you must ride seated most of the time)
If you're still seated you're unlikely to be on fast rough technical terrain at all and if you're cornering seated (where you need to weight the front wheel) you're not cornering fast.
 

R120

Moderator
Subscriber
Apr 13, 2018
7,819
9,190
Surrey
Set the bar degree to the same as your HA degree as a starting point then work from there.
 

ccrdave

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Founding Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,421
1,125
uk
Well you might be right @Gary but before my adjustment i spent half the time washing the front wheel out and the other half the time fiddling with my fork. Until a freind who is a pro downhill racer gave me a starting point and since then my wheel doesnt wash out and my fork performs miles better.
So it might be nonsense to you but it was a game changer for me and i dont spend all my time sitting down either
 

Gary

Old Tartan Bollocks
Author
Subscriber
Mar 29, 2018
10,496
10,702
the internet
I can't possibly comment on what your pro DH racer friend did. or why. (TBF sounds like he just set your bar roll to a neutral position)
Bear in mind the axle/bar position advice you're giving would change quite dramatically with a longer/shorter bike higher/lower BB higher/lower saddle height (inseam) and saddle fore and aft position.
Remaining seated while struggling for front wheel grip is bad technique unless you're climbing or also struggling for rear wheel grip on the flat. This is why setting up your bars for stood up riding makes way more sense on an mtb.

Er axle in front of handlebars means you are back not forward, axle behind bars means you are forward.
Er. No. It is the other way around. By all means sit on your bike and lean forwards then backwards if you need to. ;)

@khorn Just a thought. but are you braking a lot when you are finding most hand pain?
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
Er axle in front of handlebars means you are back not forward, axle behind bars means you are forward.
I always aim for axle below the bars ( cant see axle) when im riding seated
Well seems to work for me
image.jpg


Dave,

This is how I see axle, if behind bar I have to literally sit on the rear wheel. The more you move to the front, the more the axle will be ahead from my perspective. When in attack position my axle is just under the bar.

Karsten
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
I can't possibly comment on what your pro DH racer friend did. or why. (TBF sounds like he just set your bar roll to a neutral position)
Bear in mind the axle/bar position advice you're giving would change quite dramatically with a longer/shorter bike higher/lower BB higher/lower saddle height (inseam) and saddle fore and aft position.
Remaining seated while struggling for front wheel grip is bad technique unless you're climbing or also struggling for rear wheel grip on the flat. This is why setting up your bars for stood up riding makes way more sense on an mtb.


Er. No. It is the other way around. By all means sit on your bike and lean forwards then backwards if you need to. ;)

@khorn Just a thought. but are you braking a lot when you are finding most hand pain?
Gary,

No pain while braking, the Hayes brakes are so powerful that it is strictly a 1 finger brake with perfect modulation and btw I use the front more than the back unless too fast into corners. My core is still strong so I stand up a lot.

Karsten
 

Swissrob

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2018
327
298
Switzerland
Pity we don't have Rockshox represented here by some company rep. If dyno testing was a possibility then ruling out some individual tech fault for your forks would be a good starting point. More than a few of us here are following these threads to try and (individually) value internal upgrades available.
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
Did a small video during a ride today with focus on the fork. In the video one can clearly hear the chatter when riding on a rough surface and at the same time not much reaction from fork. Bigger bumps it handles perfectly. Am I over sensitive or is there indeed an issue?



Karsten
 

ccrdave

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Founding Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,421
1,125
uk
is your front hub ok?
is your front brake hose rattling on the fork?
is your mudguard rattling?
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
is your front hub ok?
is your front brake hose rattling on the fork?
is your mudguard rattling?
Everything is perfect, the rattling sound is basically the whole bike vibrating violently at a high frequency as the fork is not absorbing the smaller bumps. It is exactly like riding with a rigid fork and trust me, those vibrations are also in the handlebar and that is my issue.

Karsten
 

ccrdave

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Founding Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,421
1,125
uk
watching the fork it does look like its tracking ok but difficult to tell, have you tried swapping another fork in just to be sure its not something else?
I assume you have checked your motor bolts are tight?
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
watching the fork it does look like its tracking ok but difficult to tell, have you tried swapping another fork in just to be sure its not something else?
I assume you have checked your motor bolts are tight?
Everything is tight and btw the GoPro make it sounds a lot worse than it is. It is simply everything on the bike, Garmin, cables, frontend that shakes violently. As soon as bumps get bigger and I go into the mid-stroke, its dead silent again. Its like I having a rigid frontend until bumps gets bigger/deeper.

Karsten
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
have you tried burping the fork
Yes I have Dave and I never had issues with it being sucked down. I have a 200 hours service kit underway and will do a complete service on Friday. If that doesn’t help I will buy a Lyric Ultimate 170 mm and will run a little extra sag.

Karsten
 

ccrdave

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Founding Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,421
1,125
uk
hope you get it sorted, all I can say is my lyric is superb at small bump sensitivity, I suffer from hand pain (arthritis) and the lyric fitted with a debonair spring certainly fixed it for me but it still needed some careful setting up and changing tyre pressure meant I had to tweak the fork a bit to keep the silky smooth ride.
Its probably not your problem but I found some carbon bars (and some ali ones) were too stiff and that would cause a loss of the small bump sensitivity, at least it did for me, for instance, some 35mm bars were really horrid
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
hope you get it sorted, all I can say is my lyric is superb at small bump sensitivity, I suffer from hand pain (arthritis) and the lyric fitted with a debonair spring certainly fixed it for me but it still needed some careful setting up and changing tyre pressure meant I had to tweak the fork a bit to keep the silky smooth ride.
Its probably not your problem but I found some carbon bars (and some ali ones) were too stiff and that would cause a loss of the small bump sensitivity, at least it did for me, for instance, some 35mm bars were really horrid
Thanks Dave, the Renthal carbon bar is actually rather flexible and much better than the Specialized one that came with the bike.

Karsten
 

Zimmerframe

MUPPET
Subscriber
Jun 12, 2019
13,999
20,749
Brittany, France
@khorn . To the untrained eye it's difficult to tell when you fork is hitting bumps and not moving and when it's hitting larger bumps and moving ..

I think we need a video from the other angle - like this, to establish if you arms and face look like this professionally prepared test example ..

 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
@khorn . To the untrained eye it's difficult to tell when you fork is hitting bumps and not moving and when it's hitting larger bumps and moving ..

I think we need a video from the other angle - like this, to establish if you arms and face look like this professionally prepared test example ..

It’s like watching me on a slow Sunday ride :cool:
 

khorn

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Jul 19, 2018
980
1,055
Denmark
I think I nailed it finally, yesterday I did a 200 hours service on the fork and was anal about everything from bleeding the Charger damper to clean all the small bits and pieces. I also used the new low friction oil that also comes in the 2.1 damper as well as bought some frigging expensive SKF low friction seals separately(they have a green colour). Took the bike for a ride today and even it was only small changes it changed the characteristics of the fork completely, butter smooth and very responsive. As a matter of fact I removed 1 of the tokens(1 left) and upped the pressure another 5 Psi too and I guess the result is a combination of everything - I did another video from a better angle where one can see both handlebar/hands as well as the fork - @Gary what do you say, it it tracking ok now from your perspective or can it be even better?


Karsten
 

EMTB Forums

Since 2018

The World's largest electric mountain bike community.

552K
Messages
27,908
Members
Join Our Community

Latest articles


Top