Upgrading 2018 Pike to 2020 Lyric Ultimate - Is it worth it

[khorn]

Hello

Just back from 3 weeks of EMTB riding in Poland and my hands are very sore from all the chattering from the frontend, even had issues keeping hands on the bar at times. My present fork is a 2018 Revelation upgraded to Pike with Charger 2.0 and DebonAir. The Polish trails are quite rough and many small bumps that the Pike does not catch. I have tried about everything setup vice but no joy for the subtle feeling I'm after when passing uneven surfaces. I was thinking about getting the Charger 2.1 and maybe together with a Vorsprung kit but on the other hand I might as well buy the new 2020 Lyric Ultimate.

Do anyone have 1. hand experience with the new Lyric Ultimate and maybe even able to compare it up against a Pike?

I have also considered a coil setup but I'm afraid that it will be too linear as i'm a big guy with 110 kg fully kitted and I sometimes land hard(lack of skills )

Karsten

 

[Doomanic]

Is your Charger an RC2 or RCT3?

 

[R120]

I have last years Lyric RC2, and have put about 1000 miles on it - its by far the best fork I have ever had, mainly because its super smooth when set up correctly.

The ultimate is supposedly even smoother, so I would recommend it.

 

[khorn]

Is your Charger an RC2 or RCT3?

It’s a Charger 2 RCT3.

Karsten

 

[CjP]

I just put them on my Kenevo. Haven’t ridden it yet but I’m taking them out in exactly 7 hours so I’ll let you know!

 

[khorn]

I just put them on my Kenevo. Haven’t ridden it yet but I’m taking them out in exactly 7 hours so I’ll let you know!

View attachment 15423

Enjoy your ride and thanks!

Karsten

 

[Gary]

I've fitted and ridden 2x 2020 lyrik ultimates now.
Ive also ridden plenty 2018 Pikes.
What exactly is your bike set up? And what are your preferred suspension set up traits?
(go into detail and I might be able to help)
2018 to 2019 to 2020 Lyrik improvements were subtle.
(I have 2x 2018 and one 2019.
Those subtleties become more (or less) obvious depending on personal set up prefs.
For me they're really not huge and in some circumstances I actually prefer the 2018 fork.

 

[Gary]

If you haven't recently. Do a lower service on your pike.

 

[khorn]

Gary,

What i'm after is a more plush frontend that will handle small bums better in the initial part of the travel. Apart from sag and LSC I cannot see any other adjustments that can influence small bump sensitivity. It is like the initial internal friction is killing the first part of the travel, mid- and top is no issue, it works perfectly. I know how to setup a shock as I have been roadracing for 25 years - Fork was serviced just prior to my Poland trip and I even installed the new SKF low friction seals but to be honest, not much change.

My issue is the fact that, due to my Rheumatic arthritis my, fingers are not very strong(right thumb does not work at all) and sometimes I have a hard time keeping a good connection to the handlebar if the surface is rough as the frontend will chatter as the suspension does not interact at all like the fork is rigid(no movement). As soon as the bumps are becoming bigger, there is no issues as the fork soaks it up beautifully. I have tried to run excess sag like 35-40% and it helps quite a bit but then I loose too much travel and the transition to midrange support is becoming very sketchy. In order for me to achieve around 30% sag I'm running 75 Psi in the fork.

As you have ridden both forks you must be able to say if the new Lyric Ultimate is more plush compared to the 2018 Pike(Charger 2 RCT3)?

Karsten

 

[GZA]

I’ve gone from a 2019 Pike RC2 OEM to a 2020 Lyric Ultimate and it’s shocking how poor the OEM fork is in comparison to the 2020 aftermarket fork. Specialized sell a lot of junk parts on their bikes as stock. My hands went numb on a very bumpy tech trail, changed forks and never looked back. The Lyrik is much better suited to an 22Kg ebike IMO. Charger 2.1 damping vs the OEM charger is like night and day, it is so much better. It’s crazy that you have to spend another £900 to get the bike to work.

 

[Zimmerframe]

My issue is the fact that, due to my Rheumatic arthritis my, fingers are not very strong(right thumb does not work at all) and sometimes I have a hard time keeping a good connection to the handlebar if the surface is rough as the frontend will chatter as the suspension does not interact at all like the fork is rigid(no movement)

I know it's not what you asked, and it requires selling the wife's bike to buy some, but the motion forks seem quite adept at absorbing bumps, though that doesn't mean that they're suitable for all the riding you plan to do.


Or Velcro handlebar grips/palm combination ... Like clipless for your hands..

 

[khorn]

I know it's not what you asked, and it requires selling the wife's bike to buy some, but the motion forks seem quite adept at absorbing bumps, though that doesn't mean that they're suitable for all the riding you plan to do.


Or Velcro handlebar grips/palm combination ... Like clipless for your hands..

Interesting fork set up and as a matter of fact there are a few different new concepts around. One thing I don't like about all of them is all the moving parts/linkages that will not survive a muddy winter in Denmark for sure.

I would not like to be connected to the bike during one of my usual unplanned dismounts.....

Karsten

 

[steve_sordy]

On my clockwork bikes, carbon fibre bars removed massive amounts of trail buzz. I could really feel the difference; it felt like every single rock had had its edge rounded off just for me. I had the Renthal Fatbar Lite. Not felt the need on my Focus Jam2 29er

 

[khorn]

On my clockwork bikes, carbon fibre bars removed massive amounts of trail buzz. I could really feel the difference; it felt like every single rock had had its edge rounded off just for me. I had the Renthal Fatbar Lite. Not felt the need on my Focus Jam2 29er

Steve,

Unfortunately I do already have a Renthal Fatbar 35 mm in carbon but you are right, it was a notable upgrade.

Karsten

 

[Zimmerframe]

Interesting fork set up and as a matter of fact there are a few different new concepts around. One thing I don't like about all of them is all the moving parts/linkages that will not survive a muddy winter in Denmark for sure.

I would not like to be connected to the bike during one of my usual unplanned dismounts.....

I think the trust message fork is more "sealed up", long service times and a lifetime warranty on the bearings. How it would survive in real world is another story though.

I understand your not wanted to be connected to the bike ... I've only just reached "equality" - where I finally get to spend as much time on the bike as on the ground. I wonder if you could use some form of weight lifting strap just to improve your grip, but which still completely and instantly releases when you and the bike decide to go your separate ways.

 

[khorn]

I understand your not wanted to be connected to the bike ... I've only just reached "equality" - where I finally get to spend as much time on the bike as on the ground. I wonder if you could use some form of weight lifting strap just to improve your grip, but which still completely and instantly releases when you and the bike decide to go your separate ways.

It is not that bad yet but on rough uneven surface I do not have a good grip on the handlebar with the fork that I have now as there are a lot of chatter from a fork that basically are rigid unless a bigger hit.

Karsten

 

[outerlimits]

Gary,

What i'm after is a more plush frontend that will handle small bums better in the initial part of the travel. Apart from sag and LSC I cannot see any other adjustments that can influence small bump sensitivity. It is like the initial internal friction is killing the first part of the travel, mid- and top is no issue, it works perfectly. I know how to setup a shock as I have been roadracing for 25 years - Fork was serviced just prior to my Poland trip and I even installed the new SKF low friction seals but to be honest, not much change.

My issue is the fact that, due to my Rheumatic arthritis my, fingers are not very strong(right thumb does not work at all) and sometimes I have a hard time keeping a good connection to the handlebar if the surface is rough as the frontend will chatter as the suspension does not interact at all like the fork is rigid(no movement). As soon as the bumps are becoming bigger, there is no issues as the fork soaks it up beautifully. I have tried to run excess sag like 35-40% and it helps quite a bit but then I loose too much travel and the transition to midrange support is becoming very sketchy. In order for me to achieve around 30% sag I'm running 75 Psi in the fork.

As you have ridden both forks you must be able to say if the new Lyric Ultimate is more plush compared to the 2018 Pike(Charger 2 RCT3)?

Karsten

Sounds like you are not weighting the front enough while riding to get the suspension to work at the normal sag settings. This is probably a factor of your condition and hence why you are finding more comfort with more sag. You are probably blowing through your travel tho running less pressure. The Debonair is a good spring, so no need for a Vorg as they perform much the same task.

You could try a MRP ramp control in your current fork, as this will enable you to tune the air side trail side to be more progressive or liniar. You can then run greater sag and dial it up to take bigger hits.

If you want to shell out for new forks either a Lyrik fitted with a MRP ramp control, or a Yari fitted with with a Yari Up and MRP ramp control.

Keep in mind both of these are stiffer and heavier forks. The stiffness could change the frequency of the vibrations which may or may not be noticeable.

 

[khorn]

Sounds like you are not weighting the front enough while riding to get the suspension to work at the normal sag settings. This is probably a factor of your condition and hence why you are finding more comfort with more sag. You are probably blowing through your travel tho running less pressure. The Debonair is a good spring, so no need for a Vorg as they perform much the same task.

You could try a MRP ramp control in your current fork, as this will enable you to tune the air side trail side to be more progressive or liniar. You can then run greater sag and dial it up to take bigger hits.

If you want to shell out for new forks either a Lyrik fitted with a MRP ramp control, or a Yari fitted with with a Yari Up and MRP ramp control.

Keep in mind both of these are stiffer and heavier forks. The stiffness could change the frequency of the vibrations which may or may not be noticeable.

Interesting theory and it has crossed my mind, as a matter of fact I have tried a longer stem in order to get more weight over the front. Apart from needing more air in the fork it did not change the small bump sensitivity to the better. It still seems like the fork have too much friction in the first part of the travel.

I'm 6'2 with 32" legs so I do have a big torso and that combined with me riding a large2018 Levo FSR, it puts a lot of weight over the front in the first place.

Karsten

 

[Dax]

Have you had the opportunity try any other forks? It's possible you have a bad pair.

I've got '18 lyrics and they're fantastic, a mate had a pair and they were terrible, Sram warrantied them so presumably they put them on the dyno and agreed. Maybe a one off, but they way they took them back suggested there was an issue

 

[R120]

I think there is a danger of over analysing - EMTB's if ridden hard need a burly fork because a more trail orientated fork will flex a lot due to the weight of the bikes, which effects the smoothness of the suspension movement due to the amount of deflection going on.

The Pike is a very good fork, but IMO a strange choice for an EMTB at the aggressive end of the trail or enduro designed bike.

What the top end Lyrics are great at is settling into the mid stroke and operating very well within it. They are very supple for a burly fork, and when riding normal mellow single track take the edge off the chatter like no other fork I have used whilst remain very precise (I have Factory 36's on my other bike).

Of course the dilemma for aggressive riding is you are going to want to compromise suppleness in a fork/suspension for response, which means no matter what suspension your run if you set it up for hard charging you will inevitably loose some suppleness in order to gain support, especially if you like railing turns.

I am 6ft and 90kg kitted up, I run two volume spacers in my Lyric, whereas I wouldn't run any in it on an analog bike. If I wanted it suppler I would add another volume spacer and run a slightly lower psi. I also run more rebound and more HSC than I would on an analog bike.

Its important to remember that on an EMTB the static sag is very different to the active sag due to the weight. What I mean by this is that when the bike is rolling on a smooth surface it will sink into its sag far more than an analog bike, and when setting up your sag I would advise doing it when rolling, rather than static. This means that the static sag will probably be higher that you think. E.G if you set Static sag at 25%, you may actually find its at 35% when rolling, meaning that you are getting into your mid stroke quicker, and blowing though the travel quicker, meaning a harsher ride, when actually out on the trails.

I think a lot of people dont play around enough with volume spacers/tokens when setting up suspension - fiddling around with the PSI isn't going to solve most suspension feel options for most peoples day to day riding.

 

[khorn]

I think there is a danger of over analysing - EMTB's if ridden hard need a burly fork because a more trail orientated fork will flex a lot due to the weight of the bikes, which effects the smoothness of the suspension movement due to the amount of deflection going on.

The Pike is a very good fork, but IMO a strange choice for an EMTB at the aggressive end of the trail or enduro designed bike.

What the top end Lyrics are great at is settling into the mid stroke and operating very well within it. They are very supple for a burly fork, and when riding normal mellow single track take the edge off the chatter like no other fork I have used whilst remain very precise (I have Factory 36's on my other bike).

Of course the dilemma for aggressive riding is you are going to want to compromise suppleness in a fork/suspension for response, which means no matter what suspension your run if you set it up for hard charging you will inevitably loose some suppleness in order to gain support, especially if you like railing turns.

I am 6ft and 90kg kitted up, I run two volume spacers in my Lyric, whereas I wouldn't run any in it on an analog bike. If I wanted it suppler I would add another volume spacer and run a slightly lower psi. I also run more rebound and more HSC than I would on an analog bike.

Its important to remember that on an EMTB the static sag is very different to the active sag due to the weight. What I mean by this is that when the bike is rolling on a smooth surface it will sink into its sag far more than an analog bike, and when setting up your sag I would advise doing it when rolling, rather than static. This means that the static sag will probably be higher that you think. E.G if you set Static sag at 25%, you may actually find its at 35% when rolling, meaning that you are getting into your mid stroke quicker, and blowing though the travel quicker, meaning a harsher ride, when actually out on the trails.

I think a lot of people dont play around enough with volume spacers/tokens when setting up suspension - fiddling around with the PSI isn't going to solve most suspension feel options for most peoples day to day riding.

Thanks for the feedback and I think that you are on to something here, I’m running 3 spacers to compensate for the lower pressure. I will go for a ride now and check the dynamic sag to see where I actually am, static sag just checked and 28%.

Karsten

 

[tedturbine]

Going on a bit of a tangent here but something like the revgrips bar grips may help ?

 

[ccrdave]

My bike sags 10% before i even get on it.
For what its worth i have both pike and lyric 2018 and small bump sensitivity on the lyric is miles better. I was getting hand pain from the pike riding very rooty trails. With the lyric on the same trails i get no pain. Both forks are rct3 and debonair

 

[tedturbine]

Good fork review / comparison / info here:

 

[Zimmerframe]

And another tangent and adding more complexity without addressing the initial problem .. not even sure if it would fit on a mountain bike and could possibly make it very weird to ride ?? - Suspension Stem .

Gravel Gear: Stafast Brings Back the Suspension Stem, Adds Air Shock, Angle Adjustment

or 27.5+++++ tyres at 0.5 bar or a twheel ... before you know it, you'll be riding a space hopper instead.. ;-)

 

[Gary]

Gary,

What i'm after is a more plush frontend that will handle small bums better in the initial part of the travel. Apart from sag and LSC I cannot see any other adjustments that can influence small bump sensitivity. It is like the initial internal friction is killing the first part of the travel, mid- and top is no issue, it works perfectly. I know how to setup a shock as I have been roadracing for 25 years - Fork was serviced just prior to my Poland trip and I even installed the new SKF low friction seals but to be honest, not much change.

Ok. Cheers for adding more detail.
Firstly. Yes. The Lyrik ultimate is a smoother fork (than both previous Lyriks and Pikes)
(I'm not going to use the word "plush" as it describe nothing and is of no use other than car park wankery chat)
The main improvements with the latest Lyrik is that the internals now have less friction and the damping circuits are smoother. The seals have been upgraded to lower friction SKF items and RS have switched seal grease from SRAM butter to RS dynamic seal assembly grease and changed lubricating oil.
This is where the forks improved smoothness and control comes from.
The seals and lubes you could do yourself easily to any fork.
compression damping now has high and low speed adjustment which if used wisely will increase small bump performance.
Chassis stiffness is pretty much unchanged.
The air spring curve was tweaked (to give better small bump) on the 2019 Lyrik and I believe this has remained unchanged for the ultimate. This is where in certain circumstances I actually prefer the old Lyrik's spring curve. I simply prefer a stiffer more linear fork with less sag even if it is to the detriment of small bump performance.

Your biggest problem with regard to small bump performance is your weight .(I'm not light myself, and this is in no way a slight on you). being a heavier rider it is increasingly more difficult to set up any fork (even coil) to be ultra sensitive on small hits/ripples etc. and still remain supportive in the midstroke. many riders fill their fork with tokens to allow a softer sag point but this comes with a horrible (IMO) ramp up deeper in the travel.

I hate to say it but a better way to gain an increase in small bump comfort may actually be to run larger (plus) tryes at lower pressures

My issue is the fact that, due to my Rheumatic arthritis my, fingers are not very strong(right thumb does not work at all) and sometimes I have a hard time keeping a good connection to the handlebar if the surface is rough as the frontend will chatter as the suspension does not interact at all like the fork is rigid(no movement). As soon as the bumps are becoming bigger, there is no issues as the fork soaks it up beautifully.

Rev grips might actually be useful for a rider like you. I've sold many pairs and not one customer hasn't liked them. I personally don't. but I don't ever really complain of sore hands even riding a 100mm DJ bike down rough DH/Enduro tracks

I have tried to run excess sag like 35-40% and it helps quite a bit but then I loose too much travel and the transition to midrange support is becoming very sketchy.

Yeah. that is excessive. don't do this. I think I sort of covered why earlier.

In order for me to achieve around 30% sag I'm running 75 Psi in the fork.

sorry. I don't know what that relates to. the pike is a different fork. FWIW there's no way I could run anywhere close to that low in a Lyrik and I'm 20kg lighter
[Edit] none of the Pikes I've ridden were my own so I don't actually remember air pressures

As you have ridden both forks you must be able to say if the new Lyric Ultimate is more plush compared to the 2018 Pike(Charger 2 RCT3)?

Karsten

I hope the above answered this question slightly better than some carpark wankery

 

[Dax]

I hope the above answered this question slightly better than some carpark wankery

Sorry mate, still jerking off in the car park, what were you saying?

 

[Barryjm]

Have to give a vote to the focus on tyres and pressure. I love a low pressure tyre set up to absorb the small bumps, trade off comes with the tyres squirming in the corners. I am lighter at around 85kg ish loaded up. I upgraded my tyres to Spesh black diamond on my 2019 Turbo Levo with stiffer side walls so I could run 17/18 PSI. Huge difference! A better fork and tyre combination might well improve things even more but that’s another level in terms of spending!!! Clearly if heavier you would have to increase pressures which might negate the benefits, so fatter tyres kind of make sense. Good luck with the upgrades which ever route you go down!

 

[Swissrob]

Have to give a vote to the focus on tyres and pressure. I love a low pressure tyre set up to absorb the small bumps, trade off comes with the tyres squirming in the corners. I am lighter at around 85kg ish loaded up. I upgraded my tyres to Spesh black diamond on my 2019 Turbo Levo with stiffer side walls so I could run 17/18 PSI. Huge difference! A better fork and tyre combination might well improve things even more but that’s another level in terms of spending!!! Clearly if heavier you would have to increase pressures which might negate the benefits, so fatter tyres kind of make sense. Good luck with the upgrades which ever route you go down!

Finally got around to getting a digital tyre pressure gauge and was running about 18psi in the front thinking it's more and debating replacement tyres to get a better feel and steering. Now at 24 steering is much improved but my hands are paying the price! So maybe lower pressure with cushcore (I have only watched videos about it) might take enough edge off to help but it is a battle between comfort and losing performance when you drop pressures.

 

[khorn]

Ok. Cheers for adding more detail.
Firstly. Yes. The Lyrik ultimate is a smoother fork (than both previous Lyriks and Pikes)
(I'm not going to use the word "plush" as it describe nothing and is of no use other than car park wankery chat)
The main improvements with the latest Lyrik is that the internals now have less friction and the damping circuits are smoother. The seals have been upgraded to lower friction SKF items and RS have switched seal grease from SRAM butter to RS dynamic seal assembly grease and changed lubricating oil.
This is where the forks improved smoothness and control comes from.
The seals and lubes you could do yourself easily to any fork.
compression damping now has high and low speed adjustment which if used wisely will increase small bump performance.
Chassis stiffness is pretty much unchanged.
The air spring curve was tweaked (to give better small bump) on the 2019 Lyrik and I believe this has remained unchanged for the ultimate. This is where in certain circumstances I actually prefer the old Lyrik's spring curve. I simply prefer a stiffer more linear fork with less sag even if it is to the detriment of small bump performance.

Your biggest problem with regard to small bump performance is your weight .(I'm not light myself, and this is in no way a slight on you). being a heavier rider it is increasingly more difficult to set up any fork (even coil) to be ultra sensitive on small hits/ripples etc. and still remain supportive in the midstroke. many riders fill their fork with tokens to allow a softer sag point but this comes with a horrible (IMO) ramp up deeper in the travel.

I hate to say it but a better way to gain an increase in small bump comfort may actually be to run larger (plus) tryes at lower pressures


Rev grips might actually be useful for a rider like you. I've sold many pairs and not one customer hasn't liked them. I personally don't. but I don't ever really complain of sore hands even riding a 100mm DJ bike down rough DH/Enduro tracks

Yeah. that is excessive. don't do this. I think I sort of covered why earlier.

sorry. I don't know what that relates to. the pike is a different fork. FWIW there's no way I could run anywhere close to that low in a Lyrik and I'm 20kg lighter
[Edit] none of the Pikes I've ridden were my own so I don't actually remember air pressures


I hope the above answered this question slightly better than some carpark wankery

You certainly have Gary and many thanks for the comprehensive answer. Now it’s decision time if I go the Lyric route or play a little more with the setup, it seems like the general consensus is that the Lyrik provides a better small bump sensitivity. Btw my dynamic sag today was above 35% so basically my starting point is in the mid stroke.

Karsten