Mission Control Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0

[Specialized Rider Care]

Thanks for the reply. I have a 2019 Levo and the slider is at 100% for shuttle mode. I just can feel any difference between level 3 and shuttle, even with level 3 tuned down to 60/80%.

Maybe I have to take it back to the shop to see what I’m doing wrong.

Aha. It is possible that the retailer never updated your bike firmware, for a few months after Levo production started the default firmware didn't support shuttle mode. Retailers were told at launch and reminded to update bikes before handing over to riders but it is possible this didn't happen in your case. Will PM you and ask for your SN to check, but definitely going to the retailer and asking them to check your bike is up to date will not hurt.

 

[Mikerb]

Given that Levo has both cadence sensor and torque sensor...…...and assuming the software algorithm uses a combination of both with shuttle turned down to 0%...….is shuttle mode determining motor support based only on cadence, or perhaps giving greater priority to cadence over torque? A 3rd option would be for the algorithm to prioritise torque at slower bike speed ( e.g starting off) but to give greater focus to cadence with increasing speed. If any or all of those assumptions are correct then the reason for the OPs observation may be riding with too low a cadence.

 

[Specialized Rider Care]

Given that Levo has both cadence sensor and torque sensor...…...and assuming the software algorithm uses a combination of both with shuttle turned down to 0%...….is shuttle mode determining motor support based only on cadence, or perhaps giving greater priority to cadence over torque? A 3rd option would be for the algorithm to prioritise torque at slower bike speed ( e.g starting off) but to give greater focus to cadence with increasing speed. If any or all of those assumptions are correct then the reason for the OPs observation may be riding with too low a cadence.

@Mikerb - the Brose Drive S Mag motor has a new feature from Brose that they call 'Flex Power Mode', essentially power delivery is controlled according to pedal force (torque - as per our previous gen Levo bikes) and also now cadence. This is hardware related - it's unique to this new motor on the 2019 Levo FSR. As a result, you get a significantly faster response from a standing start and thus the new Levo is much quicker when pulling away or starting up a steep hill compared to most other bikes. Mission Control "sees" that a new Levo is connected and displays Shuttle mode, enabling you to slide between 0% support (fully torque controlled) and 100% (overall power controlled, which is a combination of torque and cadence). The slider position determines the blend of torque and cadence as you mention above.

 

[Moochier]

Aha. It is possible that the retailer never updated your bike firmware, for a few months after Levo production started the default firmware didn't support shuttle mode. Retailers were told at launch and reminded to update bikes before handing over to riders but it is possible this didn't happen in your case. Will PM you and ask for your SN to check, but definitely going to the retailer and asking them to check your bike is up to date will not hurt.

I took the bike in today and yes, the shop has updated firmware and I believe shuttle mode is now working. It was just a Carpark test but it definitely felt like there was more power now when in shuttle mode! Yay, Will proper test on ride this weekend.

 

[Andy A]

I have shuttle set to zero and acceleration on 40% for normal road and off road riding does that make sense as these two settings do confuse me somewhat ?

 

[Mikerb]

I still do not fully understand the pedal assist setting. My settings are still as the shop set them and currently I see no reason to change Eco 10/40 Trail 60/100 Boost 100/100. Acc and shuttle both on zero. What I do not understand is if the software allows progressively more power ....up to the max power set....the greater the torque and cadence input from the rider, what impact does the pedal assist setting have? If it is in fact setting the MINIMUM % of pedal assist regardless of torque/ cadence supplied by the rider, then it makes sense to me. It also would mean that there is a far more meaningful and understandable way to describe that setting since the% measure is confusing.Can someone tell me if I am on the wrong track here...and put me right?

 

[Mikerb]

Anyone?

 

[Mcharza]

Anyone?

Did you read post nro 4

 

[Mikerb]

Did you read post nro 4

Yes....I think I understand it now! Ta

 

[hailo]

mind blown!!

pick up the bike today and lost...lol

 

[wrayb]

So...what is the final verdict...is Turbo set at 100/100 the same as shuttle at 100?

 

[Mikerb]

You can set turbo however you want for both pedal assist and max .

 

[Mikerb]

The shuttle setting enables access to .otor power levels based more on cadence than torque. It means minimal pedal effort required by you provided you maintain a high cadence. So for example riding back up in a trail centre rather than using the centres shuttle service is one occasion when shuttle mode could be useful.

 

[jbrinsfi]

Hi Specialized
I have a 2019 Turbo Levo. I'm wanting clarification of Support vs Peak Power plse. Have read forum answers where I can and I think I've established that at 100% Support and 100% Peak Power, with a 500w battery, say rider input of 100 watts then bike will deliver 320w (3.2 x rider input). If rider puts in say 200w then (because motor max's at 500w and 3.2x 200w is more than 500w) bike will deliver 200 + 500 = 700w.
Lets hope I've got that right!!

OK so firstly, lets say Support is set at 10%, Peak Power is 100% and rider input is 100w, does this mean bike will deliver 32w ie. 132w will be total output.
Again if Support is say, 30%, Peak Power is 100% and Rider input is 100w then bike will deliver 96w
ie. 196w will be total output

Ok assuming I have got the above correct, If I change Peak Power and Support. Say.....
Support 10%, Peak Power 10% and Rider Input 100w does this mean 100w+32w = 132w
but then if I change to say :-
Support 30%, Peak Power 10% and Rider Input 100w does this mean 100w + 50w (being 10% of 500w as opposed to 96w because Peak Power puts a ceiling on the available current of 10%) = 150w

Not sure if that makes sense out loud but that's how I see it, am I correct?
Can you please advise if I have this right and if I haven't quite got it, can you please run the above scenario correctly.


Also, any hope of being able to connect HR device to Mission Control That would make it a one stop shop and no need for any other interfacing devices. At the moment I run Apple Watch for HR recorded within Strava and also Mission Control for each ride.

Thanks heaps for your help
Happy Cycling [/QUOTE

I think I understand how the support and peak power controls function on Mission Control for my 2018 Turbo Levo but I still don't under stand how "Average Support Level" is calculated in the application. For example yesterday I rode 37 miles climbing 3700 feet running in ECO with my "support" level at 10% and my "peak power" at 30% the entire ride. The app reported that I had consumed 291 wh with an "average support level" of 261.64%. With support level set at 10% I would have thought that the maximum average support level I might have seen would be .10 X 3.8 give or take. What am I missing in this?

 

[Mikerb]

You are missing the fact in all of the post above including the part you quoted that whilst the ouright power delivered by the motor is a function of its electrical and mechanical efficiency, the way in which that power is delivered is controlled by software programming. To undrrstand the former you need to refer to the torqur output graph for the motor. To understand the latter you need to know how the software programmer has devised the algorithms that take account of input from the speed torque and cadence sensors.

 

[rsilvers]

At 35% support the motor will give you approx 1.5x what you put in. At 50% it will be over 2x your input (i.e. system power is 300% you)

I think it is less-intuitive that "100% support" is 4.1x rider input and 25% support is matching rider input.
What if it were implemented where the slider goes from 0-410% or perhaps 0-4.1x? Then one would know that setting it to 100% would match rider input, and 410% would be rider input times 4.1.

 

[rsilvers]

I follow how this is working, but wondering why even have the peak power limit? It seems that it's only purpose is to make the added on power be non-linear. Why wouldn't everyone want to always leave PP at 100% and simply only use the percent support slider to control how much boost there was?

 

[rsilvers]

In the example, 25% losses between electrical input and power output was used. I would love the actual value. I suppose it depends on how much power is being input, but is 25% actually a good estimate based on factory test data?

 

[Mikerb]

I think it is less-intuitive that "100% support" is 4.1x rider input and 25% support is matching rider input.
What if it were implemented where the slider goes from 0-410% or perhaps 0-4.1x? Then one would know that setting it to 100% would match rider input, and 410% would be rider input times 4.1.

Because the power delivery is based on an algorithm that uses both torque and cadence (possibly also speed).

 

[Mikerb]

I follow how this is working, but wondering why even have the peak power limit? It seems that it's only purpose is to make the added on power be non-linear. Why wouldn't everyone want to always leave PP at 100% and simply only use the percent support slider to control how much boost there was?

Because you may want limit the amount of power delivered to suit different terrain or different conditions. That would apply in both trail and turbl modes. In eco mode ylu normally want tl limit peak power to preserve battery..

 

[phil taylor]

I have a turbo Levo FSR 2018 and recently blew out the motor and it got replaced under warranty, they also had to replace the battery so guess I got two new firmware revisions with motor and battery. I normally set econo/trail/turbo to 10/40/100 and set peak power on each one to 100. I find now that there is almost no proportional power on any of the settings, i.e. when I start pedalling at all it will kick in pretty much the full power for whatever setting I am on. For instance if I go up a 5% moderate grade in 4th gear and econo and just barely turn the pedals with the power of a butterfly the bike will easily do it. If I turn the power off completely there is no way I can stand on the pedals even and get the bike to move.

Problem I have with this is that it is very tough to get any kind of a workout, a trail that I would normally do in econo and be breathing very hard by the end can now be done with not a lot of effort. Is it possible the software revisions are not compatible, or could my torque sensor not be working properly? If I take it in to where I bought it the mechanic will probably take many months to work it out, if at all.

 

[55plusmxinsanity]

Tune acceleration to zero.

 

[phil taylor]

Tune acceleration to zero.

Don't think I have acceleration, maybe I don't have v2.0 app, or maybe my bike (2018) doesn't support acceleration??? Think I just downloaded the new app but cannot see what rev number it is.

 

[Mikerb]

The default settings are 35/35 35/100 and 100/100. Have you reset them? Maybe try doing a factory reset and then set each mode as required.
That is done on the TCU......1 press and hold the TCU mode button 2. Still holding down the mode button press and release the power button. Leds will light up. 3.keep the mode button pressed for 10 seconds until the leds turn off then turn back on. 4. Release the mode button.
You should now be on factory default settings.

 

[khorn]

The default settings are 35/35 35/100 and 100/100. Have you reset them? Maybe try doing a factory reset and then set each mode as required.
That is done on the TCU......1 press and hold the TCU mode button 2. Still holding down the mode button press and release the power button. Leds will light up. 3.keep the mode button pressed for 10 seconds until the leds turn off then turn back on. 4. Release the mode button.
You should now be on factory default settings.

The 2018 Levo does not have a TCU and is completely different to 2019 and onwards.

Karsten

 

[Mikerb]

Ah...I missed the fact it was 201i model

 

[phil taylor]

The 2018 Levo does not have a TCU and is completely different to 2019 and onwards.

Karsten

Correct I do not have a TCU on the 2018

 

[bronces]

Hi, very useful topic. However, could you precise the following point.

I have a 2020 HARD TRAIL assembled with a 1.3 LEVO motor.

Considering the information above, the support would be 3.8X: in other hand 380% maximum.

However one time, for a short run, the statistics indicate that the assistance were 420% .
What’s mean?

 

[TMS]

Hi, very useful topic. However, could you precise the following point.

I have a 2020 HARD TRAIL assembled with a 1.3 LEVO motor.

Considering the information above, the support would be 3.8X: in other hand 380% maximum.

However one time, for a short run, the statistics indicate that the assistance were 420% .
What’s mean?

If you compare watts taken from battery and biker power then the ratio can be easily over 400% Assistance power is always less because of efficient is not 100%. Also in very low cadences assistance ratio can show high levels. The motor needs a lot of curret/watts to produce desired assistance.
Or at least that's what I'm thinking about this issue.

 

[Galion]

I had 35-100 / 60-100 / 100-100, Acceleration to 100% on my 2017 Levo, never updated battery or motor, Not good for fitness but it was fun! 2020 seems so confusing, too many settings I can’t process.
Could some tell me which setting would be a similar on this new MC?