Mission Control Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0

[McInner1]

...does that mean rider input Watt?

Yes, TCU delivers rider power via ANT+ to your Edge.

 

[Karl]

My 2 cents on using Smart Control. I personally want to be able to replicate "me" on an analog bike or "MaybeNot" , I get to pick!!!! I tune my ride based on watts/hr. I had a power meter on my analog bike, I use an ERG trainer in the winter plus I have a bunch of strava segment data so I have allot of data points.. I base everything on what is relative to me, what feels good if I'm working hard etc. For me , If I'm burning 400caleries/hr typically it's usually a nice ride and I'm just out having a fun. If I'm feeling good and am riding more aggressively the cal/hr burn rate can run into the 500 or 600cal/hour range, for me, I'm going to get tired. If i'm taking a break and just on the motor I'll burn 100cal/hr very quickly! I have found a 5/15 Support/PeakPower setting will pretty much gets me in the ball park for an analog duplicate setting. If you have PowerMeter numbers not calculated number from Strava, you can you can use Strava segments to compare ebike/analog known efforts to verify. For an easy fun day with some effort 10/25 and to run around with little effort 20/40. Battery life is pretty good with these setting too!

 

[Foggydiver]

Same for me: on a 2018 Levo, 10% support and 20% PP is the setting I use to hang around with my friends with analog bikes, and follow their pace with (more or less) the same effort.

Ahhh that makes sense now , I wondered why someone would buy an ebike then try to make it feel like an analog bike (just stick with an analog version) but that’s a great idea when out with other lads on analog’s as I always feel it’s a waste of time even when set in eco at 30/35 but will try lowering it a bit too 15/20 and see if that works better

 

[wolfbane1967]

Hi
My friend bought a used Levo from end of 2019, when connected to mission Control he can't se serial number and hardware on Moror information. , it says only Firmware 41.3.6 ?

Anybody knows why its so

 

[oettam20]

Hi, If Peak Power setting is 100% for all modes, it all comes down to level of support you choose and your own effort.
10% support require 1366watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
30% support require 455watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
60% support require 228watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
80% support require 171watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
100% support require 137watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
It is explained by Spesialized Rider Care here: Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0 - EMTB Forums

Also take a look at this document...If you want the native spreadsheet file, just tell me.

Hi, thank you for the great work! Would it be possible to have the spreadsheet to simulate the SL motor with Peak at 240 watt and 2x assitence?
Thank you!

 

[Mikerb]

Hi, thank you for the great work! Would it be possible to have the spreadsheet to simulate the SL motor with Peak at 240 watt and 2x assitence?
Thank you!

Except the power delivery from the motor is not linear and the controlling software takes a ccount of cadence as well as torque. Add to that the fact that unlike road bikes, travelling on a pretty uniform surface, with predictable rates of climb or descent, an EMTB offroad is invariable meeting a constantly changing terrain. By far the best practise is to forget about watts and experiment with the settings on all 3 modes until you feel happy with the response in conditions you ride.

 

[Bike Gorilla]

Good question - firstly - here's a link to the User Guide. Secondly, below is more detailed clarification that may help some.

Support = the multiplier of rider power added by the motor
Peak Power = maximum electrical power available to supply the motor

In terms of support, each e-Bike motor is slightly different. 100% on the slider means 4.1x rider power for 2019 Levo (2.1 motor), 3.8x for 2018 Levo (1.3 motor) and 3.2x for older Levo (1.2)

When you talk about motor power, bear in mind that two types of power regularly get confused when discussing e-bikes:

a) Electrical input power (battery power that the motor consumes)
b) Mechanical output power (motor power that is added to rider power at the crank)

Mission Control (+ all other apps using ANT data) measure the electrical input power to the motor (Battery Voltage x Current). This is what you see if you view the stats page whilst riding, and it's what you limit when you reduce peak power - if you reduce peak power to 50% you're effectively limiting the motor to draw up to 50% of maximum permitted battery current. Reducing peak power therefore helps you to preserve battery life/range.

In the real world, what you actually care about/feel is the mechanical output power of the motor. Motors are not 100% efficient, some power is lost to heat so let's use 75% efficiency as an arbitrary estimate. In this example, for every 100W of electrical power the battery supplies to the motor you'd get 75W mechanical power at the crank.

However there are two other things to bear in mind - YOU are not 100% efficient either, often riding in the wrong gear and asking the motor to do all the hard work - PLUS the motor is happiest when you ride in the right gear at a good cadence - let's say 70-90 rpm. So when you're riding in optimum gear and around 80rpm, you're turning 75% of the electrical power consumed into mechanical power - but when you're riding in the wrong gear at 40rpm uphill don't expect the same results!

Below is a graph (data presented by us but measured/validated by an independent lab) showing how power varies with cadence for a number of motors - you can see that aiming for a constant cadence of around 80-90rpm will not only give you optimum power but also efficiency. Whether you are after power or range, pedaling at the right RPM makes a big difference.

View attachment 11048

To put all of this together, let's talk through the default support settings in Mission Control. You can change these to suit your riding style at any time, but let's use these as an example.

View attachment 11050

In Turbo mode on a 2019 Levo with 4.1x rider support at 100%, you'll only need to put in about 140W rider power for the motor to supply you with the maximum assist of 560W (taken from the graph above), assuming you're spinning at about 80-90 rpm. Lots of fun, also useful to get to the trail but possibly too powerful for steep climbing - especially if the ground covering is loose.

On the same bike with Support set to 35%, you're getting approx 1.5x rider support. This will feel much more natural to ride and you'll use less battery - in Trail mode with 100% peak power the motor will still reach it's maximum assist of 560W but this time you need to put in 390W rider power to get there. You get more of a work out and in practice you'll use far less battery. Aim for this mode to give you the best blend of power and efficiency so that you also have optimum control for trail riding.

In Eco mode with support set to 35% you still have approx 1.5x rider support - however you're now limited to 35% peak power (35% of 560W is approx 200W maximum motor assistance). In practice this means that you'll get linear support from the motor up until you put in about 140W rider power (200W added from the motor), but above 140W rider power you'll still only receive 200W support from the motor. This is great to preserve battery life but if you hit that peak support limit whilst climbing something steep, you have to make up all the extra with your legs.

Note: All power mentioned in this Mission Control example is mechanical power output by the motor. If you look in the stats screen of Mission Control whilst riding you will see electrical power consumed by the motor which will be higher. Re-read this article a few times and if still completely unsure...

Hi, is it possible to get this translated for the Levo SL so I can make some good evidence based decisions with that bike? Cheers in advance

 

[1TrekGA]

Hi, is it possible to get this translated for the Levo SL so I can make some good evidence based decisions with that bike? Cheers in advance

What is "Adjusted Power" shown in the online Rider Hub/Activity?

 

[boBE]

Hi, is it possible to get this translated for the Levo SL so I can make some good evidence based decisions with that bike? Cheers in advance

The Levo SL is advertised as "2x you", some consider that to mean at 100% the motor puts in 2x as much as the rider. In my riding experience I am more inclined to think it means that 100% is adding as much as you put in (up to 240 watts).
In any event the thread "Mission Control App Ride Summary - Average Support Level" has a nice display of what is maybe happening.

 

[reedm]

Here is also a link if you want to play with the model. Just change the Cyclist input field. Any feedback is welcome
Levo.xlsx

Hello Mihail,

I downloaded the Levo.xlsx spreadsheet, and find that it differs from the hard copy above the link. It show 240 watts and a 200 % multiplier for ECO and Trial rather than the 410% multiplier and 565 watts in the Turbo mode. Looking at the info in the cells, I find that that data is also in the cells. To get the ECO and Trial to work for 410% and 565 watts, I am going to need to edit a bunch of cells. No big deal, I am well experienced with Excel. My question, I guess, is do you have an .xlsx that replicates the sheet you showed that was 410% and 565 watts for all modes and that will allow me to input any desired rider power.

Very useful sheet. It will allow me to determine power and resultant battery life for my Tero when I do metric and regular centuries.

Thanks,
Reed

 

[reedm]

Here is also a link if you want to play with the model. Just change the Cyclist input field. Any feedback is welcome
Levo.xlsx

I adjusted the spreadsheet, and now it is as you published. I have a question about calculating battery life. If I took the battery power of 710 watt hours, and divided that by the motor support watts in rows 5,17, or 29 would that give me an approximation of potential battery life for all other things being equal, which they never are. No wind, no grades, constant cadence in the high 70s or 80s, flat smooth road, no rolling resistance, etc.

Reed

 

[brigcampbell]

Nice writeup with explanations and actually setting modifications.

10 Tuning Tips to get the most out of your Specialized Turbo e-MTB

Whether you own a Specialized Levo, Levo SL or Kenevo SL, there's a load of tuning potential at your fingertips. We dive into the details behind the Mission Control app to show you how to set up your Specialized e-Bike and how to get the most performance out of the motor, and the most range out...

flowmountainbike.com

 

[rzr]

From FIT file downloaded from MissionControl, data look a bit different.
so when I set support to 50% -it's 50% of maximum 400% rider support (so motor gives around 200% of my power?)
look at power, motor_power columns... (curProfileScale(%) - support, curCurrentScale(%) - peak power, currAssist(N/A) - level, 3- turbo)

and 2nd file, 45% support (peak power 75% - 406W from the picture)
225W * 1.8 = 405W ? (45% * 400% = 180%)
Am I thinking right ?

but then, what's the maximum/peak power? 560W ? or 735W - like from FIT file ?

 

[reedm]

From FIT file downloaded from MissionControl, data look a bit different.
so when I set support to 50% -it's 50% of maximum 400% rider support (so motor gives around 200% of my power?)
look at power, motor_power columns... (curProfileScale(%) - support, curCurrentScale(%) - peak power, currAssist(N/A) - level, 3- turbo)

and 2nd file, 45% support (peak power 75% - 406W from the picture)
225W * 1.8 = 405W ? (45% * 400% = 180%)
Am I thinking right ?

View attachment 100591 View attachment 100593

I can see how to download fit files from Mission Control. How do you get the fit file into a readable format-Excel or PDF? What program did you use? I need it.

 

[rzr]

first link from google FIT File Viewer (not perfect, i just use it to check above data, didn't have time to explore other options)

FIT file analyser - Google Search

 

[reedm]

first link from google FIT File Viewer (not perfect, i just use it to check above data, didn't have time to explore other options)

FIT file analyser - Google Search

Fit File Viewer works just fine, and shows both rider and motor power. A fit file application - Fit File Repair Tool - that I used to update the ride data in my Garmin 830 after I did a system reset did not show motor power when I used it to open the Mission Control fit file. Note that the Specialized RIDE app also has a fit file download capability. The file looks to be the same as the MC fit file.

 

[reedm]

Fit File Viewer works just fine, and shows both rider and motor power. A fit file application - Fit File Repair Tool - that I used to update the ride data in my Garmin 830 after I did a system reset did not show motor power when I used it to open the Mission Control fit file. Note that the Specialized RIDE app also has a fit file download capability. The file looks to be the same as the MC fit file.

Could you please send me the .fit file that you are analyzing above. I am seeing some strange numbers in the grade field in the files I am reviewing, and would like to see the results when I analyze your file. Interested in seeing if it is the same as shown above or different.

 

[Sutol]

Hi, most of you seem to have grasped the concept of 'average support level' as shown on the ride results on Mission Control but I haven't! When my wife and I go for a ride we compare results, her average spport level is always a higher percentage than mine. The question is who's putting most effort in?? Or am I completely missing the point. I try to keep the cadence in the green and rarely come out of Eco whereas my wife occasionally goes into Sport.

 

[ah1]

Hi, most of you seem to have grasped the concept of 'average support level' as shown on the ride results on Mission Control but I haven't! When my wife and I go for a ride we compare results, her average spport level is always a higher percentage than mine. The question is who's putting most effort in?? Or am I completely missing the point. I try to keep the cadence in the green and rarely come out of Eco whereas my wife occasionally goes into Sport.

It's not necessarily who's putting in more work, but if her avg support level is higher then she is getting more help from the motor. It's entirely possible to be getting more support AND be putting in more work (wattage) - think about one rider meandering nice and easy on eco barely getting something from motor but also barely working, while another rider can be hammering their hearts out on 50% support.
If you two ride more or less together same pace and she's getting more support, she's most likely putting less effort in. If you record the ride on Mission Control, I think it will actually tell you how much wattage the rider put in so that way you have a more apples-to-apples comparison. HTH

 

[Sutol]

Thanks ah1 much appreciated. I suppose if we were the same size, sex etc that would be more representative. The calories used by me is always greater than hers, however the energy used by the bike is greater for me than hers. I must admit, despite everyone's explanations I'm struggling with the correlation.

 

[ah1]

Thanks ah1 much appreciated. I suppose if we were the same size, sex etc that would be more representative. The calories used by me is always greater than hers, however the energy used by the bike is greater for me than hers. I must admit, despite everyone's explanations I'm struggling with the correlation.

It actually makes sense (again not apples-apples) but if you're using more calories you might be expending more energy, which goes to reduce the energy needed from the ebike, or the opposite - the more energy ebike gives you , the less energy you need to put in to move at same pace. I suggest you record the ride on both bikes then go to Specialized website to analyze all the data. It will give you how much power you've each put in (watts) w/o taking the bike power into consideration.