Mission Control Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0

[Winger]

Interesting thread and frankly still non the wiser,but as my wife bought a Whyte 150 2 weeks before I bought my Turbo Levo,my experience over the last month the ZX is a stronger motor, hence my enquiry on a Rail 9,but was offered such a monumental kicking money wise I dropped the idea, unless the shop can spirit something up at the 6 week check up.

 

[Mikerb]

The easiest way to think about it is that the Brose is capable of adding just over 4 times your pedal input. The software controlling that motor power obviously delivers that power progressively. You can use MC to create a zone where that power is accessed with less rider input....that is the pedal assist zone. In each of 3 modes you can access max motor power but beyond the pedal assist zone you would have to contribute comparatively more rider input. You can also limit the motor power in each mode by setting peak power less than 100%.
So if you set trail for example at 50% pedal assist and 100% peak power it means you can get the motor to double your input with relatively little rider input. You can still get 4 times motor support added to your input but your input would need to be greater.
Because the MC allows you to configure 3 different modes you can, in combination with the gears, tackle most trail scenarios with minimal rider input. Regardless how you set the modes the greater the motor support you access comlared to your own input the more you draw from the battery. BUT....it is an emtb and you may as well be on an analogue bike if you do not use the motor to its full potential! If you are worried about range get a bigger or second battery.

 

[motoadve]

At 35% support the motor will give you approx 1.5x what you put in. At 50% it will be over 2x your input (i.e. system power is 300% you) - this should feel like a substantial increase. Also note that how that power is delivered on a 2019 Levo does also depend on your Acceleration settings, try dialing this back to 0% (with Shuttle mode also at 0%) and then see if response is more natural.

According to this at 25% in Eco it would be like a regular non E bike Mt bike.
I have Eco on 20% support, 35% peak power, and it is more powerful and faster than my regular Mt bike, just when it gets real steep feels harder than my regular Mt bike.
Battery lasts forever though 6,000ft plus vert, 28 miles , all single track and finish the ride with 30 to 40% left, but I really suffer on steep sections.
Will give it a try at 25% on Eco

 

[AWB]

"According to this at 25% in Eco it would be like a regular non E bike Mt bike".

Last week I rode with a friend, he on his classic Hardtail, me on a Levo.
He is in very good shape at 61, I am no longer.
In Eco at 25%/35% I kept up with him and we did a bog standard bio-bike ride.
Save for some shirt steep ascents, where I switched to Trail with 45%/70% and
he slowed down a bit, we stayed together all the time.
The pace on this ride was significantly different to when I ride alone. It was like
I used to do it 25 years ago. The 25/35 more or less compensates for the time in between.
(When I do this course alone, I ride in Trail mode all the way, save for the flat parts in Eco.)

 

[blacktiger]

If not what is shuttle mode and is it a 2020 thing or my app needs updating .

Shuttle is not a 2020 thing because my 2019 has it.

 

[ah1]

@Specialized Rider Care and others: I've had the bike shop upgrade my firmware and to the latest and greatest (motor 7.3.6 display 26.8.0). Now some mode settings don't get saved for some reason, or they get saved and revert to something different after I switch between modes (e.g. assist on eco will be 15% but if I shift to trail and back, eco turns to 30%).
I've attached a screenshot that shows the preset just saved (there's no "update / reset" button) but for some reason ECO assist still showing 30% even though I've changed to 15%. Any help appreciated, thanks!

 

[Specialized Rider Care]

@Specialized Rider Care and others: I've had the bike shop upgrade my firmware and to the latest and greatest (motor 7.3.6 display 26.8.0). Now some mode settings don't get saved for some reason, or they get saved and revert to something different after I switch between modes (e.g. assist on eco will be 15% but if I shift to trail and back, eco turns to 30%).
I've attached a screenshot that shows the preset just saved (there's no "update / reset" button) but for some reason ECO assist still showing 30% even though I've changed to 15%. Any help appreciated, thanks!

Hi @ah1 - this sounds a little strange. Few questions - will also send you a PM to get your Serial Number.
1) Which Mission Control version are you using? (SETTINGS / CONTACT / see just underneath "Mission Control" on this page for the version)
2) If you click on presets and recall your saved preset can you validate that your settings are saved?
3) If you close the app (fully close) and reopen is the issue still there?

If the problem persists then please share your device type and app version. Equally if anyone else finds this please share.

 

[ah1]

Hi @ah1 - this sounds a little strange. Few questions - will also send you a PM to get your Serial Number.
1) Which Mission Control version are you using? (SETTINGS / CONTACT / see just underneath "Mission Control" on this page for the version)
2) If you click on presets and recall your saved preset can you validate that your settings are saved?
3) If you close the app (fully close) and reopen is the issue still there?

If the problem persists then please share your device type and app version. Equally if anyone else finds this please share.

Thanks! I've replied to your PM
1) 2.3.1 Build 64
2) Yes, if I click they're saved - but then revert back after I toggle through the eco/trail
3) I tried, the issue still persists.
Thanks

 

[KenGPS]

First I hope I'm correct in assuming that an Eco 25% setting for rider support is about 100% support at the pedals. (25% of 4.1X max support=102.5%). So yesterday I went on a 38 mile ride in Eco at 25% Rider support selected. End of the day it showed I had used 370 watts in 2.5 hours. Or about 150 watts per hour. I average about 150 watts myself, so that sounds about right if I have 100% rider support (25% setting in Eco). Battery level seemed correct also at 49% of my 700 watt battery. But the "Average Support Level" seemed to be off by a factor of 2. It said I had average support of 187%. Likewise my expended calories seemed to be half of what I expended. It said I used 695 calories. My Fitbit on the other hand says 1405. I have noticed in the week since I have been riding my new Levo that it has been averaging around 200% rider support while riding off road in steep terrain at an Eco 25% setting. Anyway, as a test I rode two identical laps today. One on Eco 25% support, one on Turbo 100% support. Reported "Average Support level" was 208% and 693%. Unless the reported "Average Support Level" is off by a factor of 2, how is it possible to be getting "693% with a bike only capable of 410% support??

BTW I tried to ride the course at exactly the same speed, cadence, and gear for 25% and 100% settings. One ride was 10:52 minutes, the other was 10:53 minutes. So I'd say they were identical comparisons.

 

[gbergama]

Hiya everyone. The question is: What are the settings for ECO to compensate a 95KG rider+equiment+ 21,5KG on a Levo Expert Carbon 2020? Is it possible to tie these two variables? My sincere apologies if this a repeated question, or one that does not makes any sense at all, but I could not find something like this on the previous threads.
Cheers everyone!

 

[Mikerb]

First I hope I'm correct in assuming that an Eco 25% setting for rider support is about 100% support at the pedals. (25% of 4.1X max support=102.5%). So yesterday I went on a 38 mile ride in Eco at 25% Rider support selected. End of the day it showed I had used 370 watts in 2.5 hours. Or about 150 watts per hour. I average about 150 watts myself, so that sounds about right if I have 100% rider support (25% setting in Eco). Battery level seemed correct also at 49% of my 700 watt battery. But the "Average Support Level" seemed to be off by a factor of 2. It said I had average support of 187%. Likewise my expended calories seemed to be half of what I expended. It said I used 695 calories. My Fitbit on the other hand says 1405. I have noticed in the week since I have been riding my new Levo that it has been averaging around 200% rider support while riding off road in steep terrain at an Eco 25% setting. Anyway, as a test I rode two identical laps today. One on Eco 25% support, one on Turbo 100% support. Reported "Average Support level" was 208% and 693%. Unless the reported "Average Support Level" is off by a factor of 2, how is it possible to be getting "693% with a bike only capable of 410% support??

BTW I tried to ride the course at exactly the same speed, cadence, and gear for 25% and 100% settings. One ride was 10:52 minutes, the other was 10:53 minutes. So I'd say they were identical comparisons.

So what did you have set as max on ECO? If pedal support was at 25% but max at 50% how do you know how often you went beyond the pedal support area into some or all of max?

 

[Mikerb]

Hiya everyone. The question is: What are the settings for ECO to compensate a 95KG rider+equiment+ 21,5KG on a Levo Expert Carbon 2020? Is it possible to tie these two variables? My sincere apologies if this a repeated question, or one that does not makes any sense at all, but I could not find something like this on the previous threads.
Cheers everyone!

If I understand your question, you are trying to have one ECO setting when it is just you on the bike and another/higher setting when you carry your child ??? with you in a kiddy seat.
Personally I would not bother changing your settings. If things get hard when carrying your child use trail instead of ECO

 

[gbergama]

If I understand your question, you are trying to have one ECO setting when it is just you on the bike and another/higher setting when you carry your child ??? with you in a kiddy seat.
Personally I would not bother changing your settings. If things get hard when carrying your child use trail instead of ECO

Thanks for the reply Mikerb. Not exactly. My combined weight with all riding gear is 95kgs. The bike weight is 21,5kgs (levo expert 2020). My thinking is: what would be the ECO settings to have the motor compensate this weight and make it "feel and pedal" like a non assisted bike. If that is possible...Does this makes sense?

 

[Martinintirol]

In my opinion it depends on the terrain you ride in. I ride in the Alps, only up or down here. So, I use std 35/35 or if I'm feeling not so good 35/50. In the second setting there is no need for any other level of support if I'm being frugal. Typically 1100hm and 30km leaves about 35% in the first instance and 25% in the second. But remember I am taking the 1100hm in support and the return journey pretty much without! Different horses for different courses. 700w battery and I am 95kg plus a few kg for the rucksack.

 

[Martinintirol]

In my opinion it depends on the terrain you ride in. I ride in the Alps, only up or down here. So, I use std 35/35 or if I'm feeling not so good 35/50. In the second setting there is no need for any other level of support if I'm being frugal. Typically 1100hm and 30km leaves about 35% in the first instance and 25% in the second. But remember I am taking the 1100hm in support and the return journey pretty much without! Different horses for different courses. 700w battery and I am 95kg plus a few kg for the rucksack.

Just to add the average level of support is 165% if that helps ...

 

[Mikerb]

Thanks for the reply Mikerb. Not exactly. My combined weight with all riding gear is 95kgs. The bike weight is 21,5kgs (levo expert 2020). My thinking is: what would be the ECO settings to have the motor compensate this weight and make it "feel and pedal" like a non assisted bike. If that is possible...Does this makes sense?

OK..I get it...except I dont!! There is very little point buying an ebike and then trying to emulate rider input for an analogue bike IMHO. The bike weights twice as much as an analogue bike typically which means it requires more power to pedal uphill but has more momentum downhill. The whole point of an EMTB is to use the motor to do the boring stuff and save your energy for the exciting downhill runs or fast singletrack.

 

[ChuckK]

Here's an explanation from Specialized of how it works:

"In Turbo mode on a 2019 Levo with 4.1x rider support at 100%, you'll only need to put in about 140W rider power for the motor to supply you with the maximum assist of 560W (taken from the graph above), assuming you're spinning at about 80-90 rpm. Lots of fun, also useful to get to the trail but possibly too powerful for steep climbing - especially if the ground covering is loose.

On the same bike with Support set to 35%, you're getting approx 1.5x rider support. This will feel much more natural to ride and you'll use less battery - in Trail mode with 100% peak power the motor will still reach its maximum assist of 560W but this time you need to put in 390W rider power to get there. You get more of a work out and in practice you'll use far less battery. Aim for this mode to give you the best blend of power and efficiency so that you also have optimum control for trail riding.

In Eco mode with support set to 35% you still have approx 1.5x rider support - however you're now limited to 35% peak power (35% of 560W is approx 200W maximum motor assistance). In practice this means that you'll get linear support from the motor up until you put in about 140W rider power (200W added from the motor), but above 140W rider power you'll still only receive 200W support from the motor."

Now if your total rider + bike weight is 95 kg and on your regular mountain bike it would be, say, 95 -10 = 85 kg, then your total weight increase is 95/85= 1.12 or 12%. So you would only need about 3% support (2.9% x 4.1 = 12%) to compensate for the additional total weight. The actual power the motor puts out would increase in proportion to your effort with increasing steepness to compensate for the added weight you're lifting uphill until the support hits the 560 W motor limit (assuming you have 100% peak power set, which you would want to allow increasing support with increasing steepness). The motor is so powerful that only a small percent of its power (the support level) is needed to compensate for the weight increase. Now there is presumably some additional friction associated with the motor assembly, so you might actually need a bit more than 3% support. I currently have my Eco mode set at 7% (the BLEvo app allows for finer adjustment than Mission Control), and I find that requires less effort than my regular mountain bike. (I use the Eco mode when I want to get into higher heart rate zones.) In other words, I find that 7% support is more than enough to compensate for the additional effort of the e-bike.

 

[Martinintirol]

OK..I get it...except I dont!! There is very little point buying an ebike and then trying to emulate rider input for an analogue bike IMHO. The bike weights twice as much as an analogue bike typically which means it requires more power to pedal uphill but has more momentum downhill. The whole point of an EMTB is to use the motor to do the boring stuff and save your energy for the exciting downhill runs or fast singletrack.

Like the sentiment, but the climbing is very enjoyable with support. That's why I bought emtb. For me, it was just taking too much out of me using a std x country fully. The benefit also is I didn't expect the downhill return to be as fast and more fun! But your right, why buy an ebike if you want to replicate a normal one .... I find my emtb better in both respects. Would love it more if it could cover 100km in battery life!

 

[gbergama]

Like the sentiment, but the climbing is very enjoyable with support. That's why I bought emtb. For me, it was just taking too much out of me using a std x country fully. The benefit also is I didn't expect the downhill return to be as fast and more fun! But your right, why buy an ebike if you want to replicate a normal one .... I find my emtb better in both respects. Would love it more if it could cover 100km in battery life!

Thanks for all the Inputs! Although the sensation of power with assist and peak power set at higher points is awsome, I still enjoy the workout. Also, if riding on flat surfaces and fire roads with a very low ECO setting, will save battery and will not drain your energy. Anyways, it was just a silly thought. Cheers and thanks again

 

[55plusmxinsanity]

I use eco at 15/30 when riding with friends on regular mtb. I set trail at 30/35 and turbo at 35/100.

On my own I use 15/100-25/100-35/100.

there again I like to tinker with settings depending on what recovery I’m in.

I also ride an SL every other day with a universal setting of 15/100, these are harder workouts and good for about 40 miles of single track with a 1000 meters of climbing.

 

[KenGPS]

So what did you have set as max on ECO? If pedal support was at 25% but max at 50% how do you know how often you went beyond the pedal support area into some or all of max?

I ride at 100% max power in all settings. I set rider support at 25/50/100%

 

[DreamensioN]

I ride at 100% max power in all settings. I set rider support at 25/50/100%

Well that explains the numbers you are seeing then.

Your "Eco" mode of 25/100, literally means it will provide you with 25% assistance, up to 100% of the capability of the motor. Re-read the 4th post in this thread and you'll see why your numbers are all over the place on those settings.

 

[KenGPS]

Well that explains the numbers you are seeing then.

Your "Eco" mode of 25/100, literally means it will provide you with 25% assistance, up to 100% of the capability of the motor. Re-read the 4th post in this thread and you'll see why your numbers are all over the place on those settings.

I don't see anything that explains it in post #4. I rode almost 40 miles one day at a nice steady pace at 25% rider support. That means the motor added 102% to my output at the crank. In 2.5 hours I used 370 watts according to mission control. Thats about 148 watts per hour. I usually output 130-150 watts myself. So that seems about right. I put in 150 watts/hour and the motor added 150 watts/hour. The battery was indicating 49% remaining. So far everything adds up. It all indicates it was supporting me with 102% support over the 2.5 hour ride. So why did it indicate 189% average support? The numbers don't add up. And when I did a test at 100% support (4.10X) It indicated 693% support. How is that even possible? The motor cannot supply more than 410% times my output.

 

[Tuckya'in]

Not sure if this is totally accurate but this is how I look at it after 5 years of riding levos....a lot.
I see Support settings as a percentage of 250 Watts, or the nominal output of the motor.
I see Peak settings as a percentage of 506 or 560 (depending on generation) which is the maximum output. When this is triggered is not crystal clear but I believe it to be only when things get really steep, or you are trying to go really fast when it's uphill.

For example, I find that if I put my Levo level at Support 100 and Peak 50, it is very similar to my SL on Support 100 and Peak 100 (which would be 240Watts.

Am I trippin?

 

[DreamensioN]

This guy also explains it... (skip to 3:30 onwards)

Peak Power = "How much of the motors full capacity will I have access to"

Support = "How much the motor will give me, based on what I put in"

So in "theory", in Eco Mode at 10/100, you could still get the full 560w because you are saying "Give me access to 100% of the motors output", even though you're only asking for 10% assistance.

 

[KenGPS]

Whats his point? Yes you can theoretically get 100% peak at 10% support. But you'll need to input 1365 watts of leg power to get the 560 watts of motor power added.

I look at it this way....How much leg power do I have to input to get full 560 watt assist from the motor.
At 30/100 it takes 455 watts. At 60/100 it takes 227 watts. At 100/100 it takes 136 watts.

 

[Manfred]

But you'll need to input 1365 watts of leg power to get the 560 watts of motor power added.

I think, at 10% support you can´t get 560 watts(mech) from motor.
The leg power is only measured/evaluated up to approx. 260Wmech.
Beyond that the motor power does not increase. At least that was the case with the Drive S Alu (1.3). See here number 9 and the table at the bottom:

Specialized - Zusammenfassung zur Levo/Kenevo Akku-Software x.23 (+ MC-App 1.2)

Zusammenfassung zum ausufernden Thema Levo/Kenevo Software x.23 ... , da dort häufig #1 übersehen wurde. Specialized Infos: Ab 12.11.2018: Motorübersicht (alle Modelle, Leistungsangaben und Leistungskurven) Erläuterungen dazu in # 1187 zu x.23 (wurde am 30.10.18 überarbeitet) [MC-App 1.2...

www.pedelecforum.de

I think this is still the case with the S Mag, but you can test it yourself, see there no. 10 - Test 3

Test 3 Determine the measurement limit of the driver performance:
Support30/PeakPower100 - full battery!
Do not drive over 22 km/h, cadence 70-90
Pedal with increasing power (steep uphill or with the brake applied more and more).
Observe when the engine power does not increase further.
Starting from approx. 250-260W driver power the engine power does not increase further on the C972.


(translated with DeepL)

 

[McInner1]

I think this is still the case with the S Mag, but you can test it yourself...

I have tested it month ago with my 2019 S Works Levo (SMag) and it is the same.
All these theoretical considerations of the interaction support-peak power are just grey theory. In practice it looks different.
I asked Rider Care about this on October 5th 2019 in this thread - but I didn't get an answer.

Mission Control - Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0

Question to @Specialized Rider Care : With the setting 20/100 I’ll get a 20% support of the motor, which is about 0.8 times the rider-power. If I ride with 100 Watt the motor gives me another 80 Watt. Is there a rider power limit above which there is no additional motor support? And I don't...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[Canakris]

I have a Garmin/Strava Watts question. On Levo Comp 2020, I log my bike ride on a Garmin Edge 830 with no additional power meter but connected to the TCU's Watts data input. If I check my ride and I see on both Garmin and Strava a Watt of 180W; does that mean rider input Watt?

 

[Manfred]

I asked Rider Care about this on October 5th 2019 in this thread - but I didn't get an answer.

They probably don't know that themselves.
It´s a Brose secret
discovered by pedelecforum.de users in 06/2018