Mission Control Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0

[Careyj1]

Used 25% of battery. Never felt the power shut off. If I put XC type tires it would roll much better and average speed would be

 

[MikeInThePeaks]

Good question - firstly - here's a link to the User Guide. Secondly, below is more detailed clarification that may help some.

Support = the multiplier of rider power added by the motor
Peak Power = maximum electrical power available to supply the motor

In terms of support, each e-Bike motor is slightly different. 100% on the slider means 4.1x rider power for 2019 Levo (2.1 motor), 3.8x for 2018 Levo (1.3 motor) and 3.2x for older Levo (1.2)

When you talk about motor power, bear in mind that two types of power regularly get confused when discussing e-bikes:

a) Electrical input power (battery power that the motor consumes)
b) Mechanical output power (motor power that is added to rider power at the crank)

Mission Control (+ all other apps using ANT data) measure the electrical input power to the motor (Battery Voltage x Current). This is what you see if you view the stats page whilst riding, and it's what you limit when you reduce peak power - if you reduce peak power to 50% you're effectively limiting the motor to draw up to 50% of maximum permitted battery current. Reducing peak power therefore helps you to preserve battery life/range.

In the real world, what you actually care about/feel is the mechanical output power of the motor. Motors are not 100% efficient, some power is lost to heat so let's use 75% efficiency as an arbitrary estimate. In this example, for every 100W of electrical power the battery supplies to the motor you'd get 75W mechanical power at the crank.

However there are two other things to bear in mind - YOU are not 100% efficient either, often riding in the wrong gear and asking the motor to do all the hard work - PLUS the motor is happiest when you ride in the right gear at a good cadence - let's say 70-90 rpm. So when you're riding in optimum gear and around 80rpm, you're turning 75% of the electrical power consumed into mechanical power - but when you're riding in the wrong gear at 40rpm uphill don't expect the same results!

Below is a graph (data presented by us but measured/validated by an independent lab) showing how power varies with cadence for a number of motors - you can see that aiming for a constant cadence of around 80-90rpm will not only give you optimum power but also efficiency. Whether you are after power or range, pedaling at the right RPM makes a big difference.

View attachment 11048

To put all of this together, let's talk through the default support settings in Mission Control. You can change these to suit your riding style at any time, but let's use these as an example.

View attachment 11050

In Turbo mode on a 2019 Levo with 4.1x rider support at 100%, you'll only need to put in about 140W rider power for the motor to supply you with the maximum assist of 560W (taken from the graph above), assuming you're spinning at about 80-90 rpm. Lots of fun, also useful to get to the trail but possibly too powerful for steep climbing - especially if the ground covering is loose.

On the same bike with Support set to 35%, you're getting approx 1.5x rider support. This will feel much more natural to ride and you'll use less battery - in Trail mode with 100% peak power the motor will still reach it's maximum assist of 560W but this time you need to put in 390W rider power to get there. You get more of a work out and in practice you'll use far less battery. Aim for this mode to give you the best blend of power and efficiency so that you also have optimum control for trail riding.

In Eco mode with support set to 35% you still have approx 1.5x rider support - however you're now limited to 35% peak power (35% of 560W is approx 200W maximum motor assistance). In practice this means that you'll get linear support from the motor up until you put in about 140W rider power (200W added from the motor), but above 140W rider power you'll still only receive 200W support from the motor. This is great to preserve battery life but if you hit that peak support limit whilst climbing something steep, you have to make up all the extra with your legs.

Note: All power mentioned in this Mission Control example is mechanical power output by the motor. If you look in the stats screen of Mission Control whilst riding you will see electrical power consumed by the motor which will be higher. Re-read this article a few times and if still completely unsure...

For about 10 days I’ve been the very proud owner of a Levo SL and superb it is too.

I wonder though if I could make a feature request? The concept of the SL is a little different to the full fat bike, it’s clearly a MTB with e rather than an eMTB. I’ve found myself largely riding it as a standard bike and have used about 0-10% each time I’ve been out (every day in 10 days). There are two distinct types of electric usage for me; a low level of 10-15% to turn the bike into a traditional 13kg mountain bike and something more aligned with the factory settings of 30/60/100 for proper off road trail climbing etc. I therefore find myself endlessly getting my phone out to go from a low level setup to a more standard factory one.

i appreciate it would need a significant addition to what is an excellent and functional app but I wonder if for the Levo SL the option of 5 power settings would be useful (it certainly would for me!), they could be displayed via the TCU using a combination of solid lights as now individual lights e.g. just the 12 o’clock light on for power band 2 out of 5 and then both for band 3 etc. Personally I’d use 10/20/35/60/100.

If the TCU isn’t programmable then I’d be happy to accept it blind as I can feel the assist level in my legs anyway!

Cheers

 

[Lasse]

Hi, I have owned my first Turbo Levo Comp 2020 for 2-3 weeks now, and have read many posts in this forum. Base don the information from Speciaized guides and input here, I've made some charts to describe how I understand the settings "Support" and "Peak Power" affect the ride.
Please feel free to comment it... I am more than happy if anyone can make "corrections" to it.

 

[Martinintirol]

Hi, I have owned my first Turbo Levo Comp 2020 for 2-3 weeks now, and have read many posts in this forum. Base don the information from Speciaized guides and input here, I've made some charts to describe how I understand the settings "Support" and "Peak Power" affect the ride.
Please feel free to comment it... I am more than happy if anyone can make "corrections" to it.

Still coming to terms with it all. But your hard work is fantastic. I maybe able to get a handle on it all now. Well done!

 

[wrayb]

On my bike, you can adjust the acceleration and shuttle for each mode. I have seen a few posts that state that acceleration and shuttle are global but on my app I have different levels for each mode.

What software are you using? As far as I can see on my Mission Control App "Shuttle" is still a global setting. Do I need to update my app?

 

[wrayb]

Support as this is how much power the motor puts out relative to your own efforts. Acceleration is how quickly that power comes in and shuttle means more power is delivered at higher cadences. I almost had a mech written off by a twig, took the hanger and bent the cage up.

I still don't understand Shuttle. So, as long as speed is below 20 mph...if I have shuttle set to 0% then the power delivered by the motor is determined by support, peak, and acceleration settings and rider input (torque). My first question: is cadence included as an input to determine motor output?

Suppose I have a 2019 2.1 Brose motor with 560W peak power and 4.1 max assistance (which I do) and I have shuttle set to 0 and I am putting in 100 W (at any cadence) and I have 100% for all inputs (support, peak, accel.) then I will get my 100W plus (4.1 X 100) 410 W from the motor for a total of 510 W of output. Right? If I have shuttle set to 100% will this output be less at low cadences and higher at high cadences? I guess what I am asking is will the support be effectively MORE than 100% (4.1) for high cadences or does it just get to 4.1 with less torque and more cadence from the rider at 100 shuttle (which is effectively giving more than 4.1 X rider torque)? And if so...does that mean that 100% shuttle would penalize rider output by reducing the 4.1 assist at slower cadences?

 

[wrayb]

Hi, I have owned my first Turbo Levo Comp 2020 for 2-3 weeks now, and have read many posts in this forum. Base don the information from Speciaized guides and input here, I've made some charts to describe how I understand the settings "Support" and "Peak Power" affect the ride.
Please feel free to comment it... I am more than happy if anyone can make "corrections" to it.

Great spreadsheet work but you need to add acceleration and shuttle to get these two inputs into the mix.

 

[Mikerb]

There are 4 potential variables the software programmer had to play with interms of all the various settings on MC. Speed torque cadence and battery watts ( up to the max output from the battery). Each MC setting e.g pedal assist max power acceleration shuttle.....changes the emphasis placed on each variable in order to meet a specific rider need and to be as progressive and natural as possible. So you are trying to second guess software algorithms that took months possibly years to develop. Each setting is explained by Spesh in rider not technical terms.....for a reason. None of the variables are constant .

 

[Lasse]

Great spreadsheet work but you need to add acceleration and shuttle to get these two inputs into the mix.

Hi, thanks for comment the spreadsheet is not taking into account acceleration etc (thus, also time). The intention of it is only to provide som vizual presentation of how these two settings "Support" and "Peak Performance" affect the bike. The spreadsheet gives an understanding of how much engine support the rider gets at certain static/constant rider efforts, and showing that Peak Performance is the upper treshold you choose for your mode.

 

[Lasse]

There are 4 potential variables the software programmer had to play with interms of all the various settings on MC. Speed torque cadence and battery watts ( up to the max output from the battery). Each MC setting e.g pedal assist max power acceleration shuttle.....changes the emphasis placed on each variable in order to meet a specific rider need and to be as progressive and natural as possible. So you are trying to second guess software algorithms that took months possibly years to develop. Each setting is explained by Spesh in rider not technical terms.....for a reason. None of the variables are constant .

Hi, thanks for comment the spreadsheet is not taking into account acceleration etc (thus, also time). The intention of it is only to provide som vizual presentation of how these two settings "Support" and "Peak Performance" affect the bike. The spreadsheet gives an understanding of how much engine support the rider gets at certain static/constant rider efforts, and showing that Peak Performance is the upper treshold you choose for your mode.

 

[Lasse]

There are 4 potential variables the software programmer had to play with interms of all the various settings on MC. Speed torque cadence and battery watts ( up to the max output from the battery). Each MC setting e.g pedal assist max power acceleration shuttle.....changes the emphasis placed on each variable in order to meet a specific rider need and to be as progressive and natural as possible. So you are trying to second guess software algorithms that took months possibly years to develop. Each setting is explained by Spesh in rider not technical terms.....for a reason. None of the variables are constant .

Hi, thanks for comment the spreadsheet is not taking into account acceleration etc (thus, also time). The intention of it is only to provide som vizual presentation of how these two settings "Support" and "Peak Performance" affect the bike. The spreadsheet gives an understanding of how much engine support the rider gets at certain static/constant rider efforts, and showing that Peak Performance is the upper treshold you choose for your mode.

 

[Lasse]

I still don't understand Shuttle. So, as long as speed is below 20 mph...if I have shuttle set to 0% then the power delivered by the motor is determined by support, peak, and acceleration settings and rider input (torque). My first question: is cadence included as an input to determine motor output?

Suppose I have a 2019 2.1 Brose motor with 560W peak power and 4.1 max assistance (which I do) and I have shuttle set to 0 and I am putting in 100 W (at any cadence) and I have 100% for all inputs (support, peak, accel.) then I will get my 100W plus (4.1 X 100) 410 W from the motor for a total of 510 W of output. Right? If I have shuttle set to 100% will this output be less at low cadences and higher at high cadences? I guess what I am asking is will the support be effectively MORE than 100% (4.1) for high cadences or does it just get to 4.1 with less torque and more cadence from the rider at 100 shuttle (which is effectively giving more than 4.1 X rider torque)? And if so...does that mean that 100% shuttle would penalize rider output by reducing the 4.1 assist at slower cadences?

For higher shuttle it seems like it takes longer time before the engine cuts when you stop pedalling. When running quickly over roots, and your rear wheel loose contact with the ground, you will find your wheel spinning....Have you felt the same?

 

[Mikerb]

my point was that that the only way you can accurately determine the the power being delivered with different settings etc would be on a test bench where each variable is able to be fully controlled at a constant. When riding you are not able to control any of the factors impacting on the bike. Wind resistance, slight changes in incline, changes in surface resistance, your cadence, your torque input, the action and reaction of the suspension and frame flex. With every slight change to rolling resistance you will likely reduce cadence and increase torque even if momentary and those 2 input variables within the software algorithm will aim to keep things smooth by keeping the wattage drawn smooth. Take for example pedal assist. The objective is to deliver a relatively high level of motor assistance without much rider input. The algorithm will therefore enable a relatively high wattage draw ( adjustable) whilst torque input and cadence are both relatively low. The situation is however very different at start off when toque input is likely to be high and so to avoid a very jerky start more emphasis is placed on cadence which will be low, to avoid that. As the bike gather momentum less torque input is required to maintain progress so torque is given more emphasis. The programmer will have decided for any given mode what the likely optimum comfortable cadence is and when that is used there is an equal balance of emphasis between torque and cadence in terms of determining the wattage drawn. In the real world of course and especially offroad all of the different influences on the momentum of the bike I mentioned earlier will impact on just how that part of the software program performs.

 

[Careyj1]

What software are you using? As far as I can see on my Mission Control App "Shuttle" is still a global setting. Do I need to update my app?

That was my mistake, the shuttle and acceleration are global.

 

[wrayb]

There are 4 potential variables the software programmer had to play with interms of all the various settings on MC. Speed torque cadence and battery watts ( up to the max output from the battery). Each MC setting e.g pedal assist max power acceleration shuttle.....changes the emphasis placed on each variable in order to meet a specific rider need and to be as progressive and natural as possible. So you are trying to second guess software algorithms that took months possibly years to develop. Each setting is explained by Spesh in rider not technical terms.....for a reason. None of the variables are constant .

I have been looking for a definitive explanation by Specialized on what inputs are used in the assistance algorithm...I am not asking about settings for assist, peak, acceleration, and shuttle...I would like to know what rider inputs to the pedals are used. It would also be interesting to know what bike conditions (like speed, motor and battery temp, battery level, etc) are used in the algorithm. I get they are not giving away HOW they use the inputs (their proprietary algorithm) but can you point me to a link where they at least clearly state the inputs used? I have asked about this before (specifically speed) in another post.

You list speed as an input. It seems the speed input is ONLY for a cut off point for motor assist (20 mph here in the US) and nothing more. I do not believe speed will be an input to the algorithm that determines motor assistance (otherwise the deregulation schemes would totally screw up the algorithm).

You also list battery watts as an input. Are you referring to the reduction of assistance when the battery is at 15% or less? Otherwise battery level would not be an input either.

As a rider all I can do to influence motor assistance is pedal...torque and cadence. I would like to know more about how these inputs to the assistance algorithm are affected by the shuttle setting.

 

[Mikerb]

Shuttle reduces the amount of rider torque input influence on power delivery but places more emphasis on cadence. It is a "spinning" mode if you like. It is useful for a tedious uphill gravel road return to the top of a trail. ....hence its name. Acceleration enables greater power delivery when both speed and cadence are low. Personally I have both set to zero since when you become familiar with the modes both can be emulated with the right mode and gear selection clmbined with the right cadence.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

sorry if its already been asked but I have tried new settings today based on how a friend sets his levo up of 20-100 in eco.
I stuck with my settings on trail and turbo, 35-65 and 60-100 respectively but I was sort of expecting to be able to get full power out of that new setup in eco mode but I dont. even if I get out of the seat and grind, the 100% assistance in eco isnt anywhere near as powerful as 100% assistance in turbo.
is that right? are the modes each limited themselves to a max percentage of possible motor power?

 

[Levo Laland]

20 assistance is about 85% of your own power. So to get full motor power you’d have to be putting out 600watts.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

20 assistance is about 85% of your own power. So to get full motor power you’d have to be putting out 600watts.

yes I understand that, the explanation from Specialized was good but if you set eco, trail and turbo to 100% peak each, I dont get the same power output in each mode, is that right?

 

[Mikerb]

As above I think all you are experiencing is the amount of rider input required to go beyond the pedal assist setting. There are not in fact 3 different modes....just the ability to create 3 different selectable presets.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

As above I think all you are experiencing is the amount of rider input required to go beyond the pedal assist setting. There are not in fact 3 different modes....just the ability to create 3 different selectable presets.

so there is a problem? I dont get the same assistance at 100% in eco as I get at 100% in turbo..

 

[Mikerb]

No...as I said the modes are not "hard wired". It is in effect one mode which you can set up in 3 different ways and then select which one you need.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

No...as I said the modes are not "hard wired". It is in effect one mode which you can set up in 3 different ways and then select which one you need.

ok, so there is a problem with the bike..

 

[wrayb]

ok, so there is a problem with the bike..

Do you have the "Eco Mode" (designated by only 1 green light) set to 100% assist AND 100 peak?

 

[ThierryGTLTS]

ok, so there is a problem with the bike..

No, just have a look at the drawing.
X axis is input rider, Y axis is power deliverered by the motor.
So with ECO 25/100 you need more input power to have all the motor power, compared to Turbo 100/100!
Refer to the graph for future settings, it will help you.
Have a Nice Day.
Thierry

 

[wrayb]

sorry if its already been asked but I have tried new settings today based on how a friend sets his levo up of 20-100 in eco.
I stuck with my settings on trail and turbo, 35-65 and 60-100 respectively but I was sort of expecting to be able to get full power out of that new setup in eco mode but I dont. even if I get out of the seat and grind, the 100% assistance in eco isnt anywhere near as powerful as 100% assistance in turbo.
is that right? are the modes each limited themselves to a max percentage of possible motor power?

Dobby...you wrote "I tried new setting....of 20-100 in eco." Then you wrote "even if I get out of the seat and grind, the 100% assistance in eco...".

So...there seems to be contradicting information in your original post. 20-100 typically means 20% Support (Assistance) and 100% Peak Power. So you are NOT at 100% assistance (as you wrote) in at this setting...only 20% assistance which is why you are not getting the full power of the bike as others have explained.

I believe the confusion is the term "Eco". Which really has NO MEANING other than the default setting from the factory for the first level (only 1 green light). So if you set the first level (what I believe you are desinating ECO mode) at 100% assistance AND 100% peak power it should be the same as the default Turbo mode. No problem with the bike!

 

[Lasse]

sorry if its already been asked but I have tried new settings today based on how a friend sets his levo up of 20-100 in eco.
I stuck with my settings on trail and turbo, 35-65 and 60-100 respectively but I was sort of expecting to be able to get full power out of that new setup in eco mode but I dont. even if I get out of the seat and grind, the 100% assistance in eco isnt anywhere near as powerful as 100% assistance in turbo.
is that right? are the modes each limited themselves to a max percentage of possible motor power?

Hi, you are correct. With 20% Support almost 700 rider watts are required if you want full engine assistance. With 20% support, every 100watt you pedal will be awarded with 80watt engine assist...

 

[Lasse]

This is legit and explains why specialized hinted the best is at 30/100 For the Levo SL. Pretty awesome graph, thanks for your time turning this in to a visual!
?

I just had to make something like this to visualize how it adds up....Glad it may help others as well!

 

[Lasse]

yes I understand that, the explanation from Specialized was good but if you set eco, trail and turbo to 100% peak each, I dont get the same power output in each mode, is that right?

Hi, If Peak Power setting is 100% for all modes, it all comes down to level of support you choose and your own effort.
10% support require 1366watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
30% support require 455watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
60% support require 228watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
80% support require 171watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
100% support require 137watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
It is explained by Spesialized Rider Care here: Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0 - EMTB Forums

Also take a look at this document...If you want the native spreadsheet file, just tell me.

 

[Zero]

Hi, If Peak Power setting is 100% for all modes, it all comes down to level of support you choose and your own effort.
10% support require 1366watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
30% support require 455watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
60% support require 228watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
80% support require 171watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
100% support require 137watt from you in order to get 560watt from the engine
It is explained by Spesialized Rider Care here: Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0 - EMTB Forums

Also take a look at this document...If you want the native spreadsheet file, just tell me.

How this work when the motor is limited to 250w continuous. Peak power is short bursts im guessing?