Mission Control Understanding Support vs Peak Power in Mission Control App v2.0

[Lasse]

How this work when the motor is limited to 250w continuous. Peak power is short bursts im guessing?

The principle is the same of how "support" and "peak performance" affect the riding.

Tested Turbo Levo WATT output, surprising results...

We did some testing with my bike, vs some other converted eBikes with powerful mid drives. My friend, owner of Luna Cycle, was SUPER impressed with my Levo, and he was convinced the bike had to be putting out more than the stated 530-watts. Being a shop, he had the Rosenberg connectors and a...

electricbikereview.com

.

 

[Zero]

The principle is the same of how "support" and "peak performance" affect the riding.

Tested Turbo Levo WATT output, surprising results...

We did some testing with my bike, vs some other converted eBikes with powerful mid drives. My friend, owner of Luna Cycle, was SUPER impressed with my Levo, and he was convinced the bike had to be putting out more than the stated 530-watts. Being a shop, he had the Rosenberg connectors and a...

electricbikereview.com

.

It all looks like voodoo.

Probably a good thing given the stupid arbitrary regulations moronic government regulation seems to put on everything.

Makes picking a bike hard though between motor brands.

 

[anandman]

Anyone here know how the support works on a Creo SL?

 

[ThierryGTLTS]

Anyone here know how the support works on a Creo SL?

Like the Levo SL support.

Here is an example below.

Thierry

 

[anandman]

Like the Levo SL support.

Here is an example below.

Thierry

View attachment 33886

It‘s hard to tell from the graph. But from elsewhere, it looks like the motor support is 2x the rider input? With a max of 240W? As an aside, would you be willing to share your spreadsheet?

 

[Zero]

This would be all well and good if someone hadnt put a meter on a level and see it pulling far more watts than the 250w limit

 

[boBE]

This would be all well and good if someone hadnt put a meter on a level and see it pulling far more watts than the 250w limit

Tell me more!

 

[anandman]

Tell me more!

As Specialized Rider Care mentions earlier in the thread, the motor power is actually the electrical input, not the mechanical output that an external power meter might measure. I’m still not sure how the mechanical output is more than the biker plus electrical input as @Zero mentions. I have some vague recollections of high school physics that tell me this is impossible, but maybe Specialized have figured out the secret backdoor to the universe. Or maybe Specialized is really lying about their motors and they are more powerful than they claim.

 

[Zero]

As Specialized Rider Care mentions earlier in the thread, the motor power is actually the electrical input, not the mechanical output that an external power meter might measure. I’m still not sure how the mechanical output is more than the biker plus electrical input as @Zero mentions. I have some vague recollections of high school physics that tell me this is impossible, but maybe Specialized have figured out the secret backdoor to the universe. Or maybe Specialized is really lying about their motors and they are more powerful than they claim.

Someone linked a video where they tested the power draw between battery and motor. It was pulling consistently more.

 

[Mikerb]

Every machine suffers output losses due to friction heat and mechanical transfer. Power ratings rarely translate into anything meaningful performance wise. A 200 bhp car engine sounds impressive but if that max power is only reached at 6k revs not many drivers would ever experience it! A turbo diesel engine rated at half the bhp bjt lroducing max lower at 2.2k revs will be much faster anywhere but on a race track.

 

[Zero]

Every machine suffers output losses due to friction heat and mechanical transfer. Power ratings rarely translate into anything meaningful performance wise. A 200 bhp car engine sounds impressive but if that max power is only reached at 6k revs not many drivers would ever experience it! A turbo diesel engine rated at half the bhp bjt lroducing max lower at 2.2k revs will be much faster anywhere but on a race track.

This was 460 watts.

Also your car analogy is way off the mark. It doesnt even make sense. No engines work the way you explained them.

 

[Zero]

Well I found the video.

700w peak and over 600 continuous.

 

[Mikerb]

This was 460 watts.

Also your car analogy is way off the mark. It doesnt even make sense. No engines work the way you explained them.

Having built from scratch my own race engines I know exactly how to influence the mechanical power input and output for different applications ( race/rally/load carrying) one key element being the resultant torque curve. Measuring power input and output is relatively simple compared to an electrical motor. If you really want to understand the measurement of mechanical power of an electrical motor I suggest you do some studying......you will however probably regret it unless you are well up on your physics and electrical engineering and algebra. Which is why rather simplistic graphs are often used by suppliers like Spesh.
That is why I previously said that for any engine torque over a range of engine revolution speed....or in this case, cadence, is a far more meaningful expression of performance. (Power=torque x speed)

 

[Zero]

Having built from scratch my own race engines I know exactly how to influence the mechanical power input and output for different applications ( race/rally/load carrying) one key element being the resultant torque curve. Measuring power input and output is relatively simple compared to an electrical motor. If you really want to understand the measurement of mechanical power of an electrical motor I suggest you do some studying......you will however probably regret it unless you are well up on your physics and electrical engineering and algebra. Which is why rather simplistic graphs are often used by suppliers like Spesh.
That is why I previously said that for any engine torque over a range of engine revolution speed....or in this case, cadence, is a far more meaningful expression of performance. (Power=torque x speed)

If you want to make this subject massively over complicated then congratulations. By the end of your posts i literally have forgotten what you posted in reply to. The fact you bring up ICE when talking about electric motors has literally nothing to do with what i posted which was about the Brose using more power than claimed.

 

[Mikerb]

If you want to make this subject massively over complicated then congratulations. By the end of your posts i literally have forgotten what you posted in reply to. The fact you bring up ICE when talking about electric motors has literally nothing to do with what i posted which was about the Brose using more power than claimed.

Ah...forgive me...I assumed you understood the basics and was looking for something meaningful to assess the real useful output of the motor. So....the basics.
A 250 watt motor is specified as such because that is the legal limit for import of pedelec ebikes. Manufacturers describe/rate the motor as 250 watt....continuous power. That is, it is capable of delivering 250 watts almost indefinitely without overheating and destroying itself. It is not an expression of PEAK power. If you connect it to a battery at 48v and use a controller to vary current up to 20 amps it will draw 960 watts. Without some form of addktional cooling it would however only be able to do so for short period of time. Temperature sensors on a well designed motor would interact with the amp controller to reduce current before damage occured.
So I have no doubt the motor will draw more than the nominal (continuous) 250w rating.
I thought that was common knowledge!
My point was more about what that means in terms of mechanical output power....but I will leave that for now given your apparent reluctance to learn.

 

[Zero]

Ah...forgive me...I assumed you understood the basics and was looking for something meaningful to assess the real useful output of the motor. So....the basics.
A 250 watt motor is specified as such because that is the legal limit for import of pedelec ebikes. Manufacturers describe/rate the motor as 250 watt....continuous power. That is, it is capable of delivering 250 watts almost indefinitely without overheating and destroying itself. It is not an expression of PEAK power. If you connect it to a battery at 48v and use a controller to vary current up to 20 amps it will draw 960 watts. Without some form of addktional cooling it would however only be able to do so for short period of time. Temperature sensors on a well designed motor would interact with the amp controller to reduce current before damage occured.
So I have no doubt the motor will draw more than the nominal (continuous) 250w rating.
I thought that was common knowledge!
My point was more about what that means in terms of mechanical output power....but I will leave that for now given your apparent reluctance to learn.

Im not reluctant to learn. Far from it, i was merely pointing out that most people think these motors are limited to 250w continuous. I have long believed there is more to it. I have not researched the regulations so i dont know how strict they are. But as you say above, its interesting that these motors can produce much higher output. This makes sense because i often feel that the motor sometimes feels sluggish and other times feels "free" so to speak. Maybe the temperature of the motor is causing the motor to limit its output.

 

[Mikerb]

Im not reluctant to learn. Far from it, i was merely pointing out that most people think these motors are limited to 250w continuous. I have long believed there is more to it. I have not researched the regulations so i dont know how strict they are. But as you say above, its interesting that these motors can produce much higher output. This makes sense because i often feel that the motor sometimes feels sluggish and other times feels "free" so to speak. Maybe the temperature of the motor is causing the motor to limit its output.

No...not CAN produce higher power....they of course all do. A motor restricted to 250 w max would be pretty feeble. Power drawn does not however equate to mechanical power output due to a number of losses and those are not linear. Then of course there is the software that governs power output in accordance with both the parameters set out in the software program as measured by speed torque and cadence sensors and the torque characteristics of the motor. None of that information is available to you as a user so there is little point trying to second guess it. What you can do....and this applies equally to ICE, is learn how to maximise the performance through use. That includes getting a feel for when use turns to abuse....a common reason for motor failures....some of which would not happen if indeed the motor was limited to 250w max.

 

[Zero]

No...not CAN produce higher power....they of course all do. A motor restricted to 250 w max would be pretty feeble. Power drawn does not however equate to mechanical power output due to a number of losses and those are not linear. Then of course there is the software that governs power output in accordance with both the parameters set out in the software program as measured by speed torque and cadence sensors and the torque characteristics of the motor. None of that information is available to you as a user so there is little point trying to second guess it. What you can do....and this applies equally to ICE, is learn how to maximise the performance through use. That includes getting a feel for when use turns to abuse....a common reason for motor failures....some of which would not happen if indeed the motor was limited to 250w max.

I know they can, peak power is rated at 560w i think, The video shows the bike hitting 700w+

I changed from Shimano because i felt the motor was underpowered. Im pretty sure the Brose is significantly more powerful as i fly up fire roads past Shimano bikes now and also a Trek Rail with the Bosch.

Im pretty impressed with this motor so far, as well as the 700wh battery

 

[Mikerb]

I know they can, peak power is rated at 560w i think, The video shows the bike hitting 700w+

I changed from Shimano because i felt the motor was underpowered. Im pretty sure the Brose is significantly more powerful as i fly up fire roads past Shimano bikes now and also a Trek Rail with the Bosch.

Im pretty impressed with this motor so far, as well as the 700wh battery

Peak power is not specified. Brose delivers 90nm as opposed to c 70 for Shimano and it delivers its torque curve over a wider cadence range....so yes it is significantly more powerful.

 

[Zero]

Peak power is not specified. Brose delivers 90nm as opposed to c 70 for Shimano and it delivers its torque curve over a wider cadence range....so yes it is significantly more powerful.

I think it is specified. Brose confirmed it somewhere but I'd need to dig that figure out.

 

[Mikerb]

I think it is specified. Brose confirmed it somewhere but I'd need to dig that figure out.

The assistance level is quoted as 410%. The Bosch gen 4 is 340% for comparison. That gives a clue for peak power but depends on what Spesh assume to be a reasonable peak rider input. A pro rider can inlut up to 400 watts but an average Joe is probably around 160. So 4 times that is 640 watts.

 

[Mikerb]

That also tells you that if you input more than their assumed max rider torque you do not access any further motor assistance than if you eased off a little.

 

[dfgomez]

Good question - firstly - here's a link to the User Guide. Secondly, below is more detailed clarification that may help some.

Support = the multiplier of rider power added by the motor
Peak Power = maximum electrical power available to supply the motor

In terms of support, each e-Bike motor is slightly different. 100% on the slider means 4.1x rider power for 2019 Levo (2.1 motor), 3.8x for 2018 Levo (1.3 motor) and 3.2x for older Levo (1.2)

When you talk about motor power, bear in mind that two types of power regularly get confused when discussing e-bikes:

a) Electrical input power (battery power that the motor consumes)
b) Mechanical output power (motor power that is added to rider power at the crank)

Mission Control (+ all other apps using ANT data) measure the electrical input power to the motor (Battery Voltage x Current). This is what you see if you view the stats page whilst riding, and it's what you limit when you reduce peak power - if you reduce peak power to 50% you're effectively limiting the motor to draw up to 50% of maximum permitted battery current. Reducing peak power therefore helps you to preserve battery life/range.

In the real world, what you actually care about/feel is the mechanical output power of the motor. Motors are not 100% efficient, some power is lost to heat so let's use 75% efficiency as an arbitrary estimate. In this example, for every 100W of electrical power the battery supplies to the motor you'd get 75W mechanical power at the crank.

However there are two other things to bear in mind - YOU are not 100% efficient either, often riding in the wrong gear and asking the motor to do all the hard work - PLUS the motor is happiest when you ride in the right gear at a good cadence - let's say 70-90 rpm. So when you're riding in optimum gear and around 80rpm, you're turning 75% of the electrical power consumed into mechanical power - but when you're riding in the wrong gear at 40rpm uphill don't expect the same results!

Below is a graph (data presented by us but measured/validated by an independent lab) showing how power varies with cadence for a number of motors - you can see that aiming for a constant cadence of around 80-90rpm will not only give you optimum power but also efficiency. Whether you are after power or range, pedaling at the right RPM makes a big difference.

View attachment 11048

To put all of this together, let's talk through the default support settings in Mission Control. You can change these to suit your riding style at any time, but let's use these as an example.

View attachment 11050

In Turbo mode on a 2019 Levo with 4.1x rider support at 100%, you'll only need to put in about 140W rider power for the motor to supply you with the maximum assist of 560W (taken from the graph above), assuming you're spinning at about 80-90 rpm. Lots of fun, also useful to get to the trail but possibly too powerful for steep climbing - especially if the ground covering is loose.

On the same bike with Support set to 35%, you're getting approx 1.5x rider support. This will feel much more natural to ride and you'll use less battery - in Trail mode with 100% peak power the motor will still reach it's maximum assist of 560W but this time you need to put in 390W rider power to get there. You get more of a work out and in practice you'll use far less battery. Aim for this mode to give you the best blend of power and efficiency so that you also have optimum control for trail riding.

In Eco mode with support set to 35% you still have approx 1.5x rider support - however you're now limited to 35% peak power (35% of 560W is approx 200W maximum motor assistance). In practice this means that you'll get linear support from the motor up until you put in about 140W rider power (200W added from the motor), but above 140W rider power you'll still only receive 200W support from the motor. This is great to preserve battery life but if you hit that peak support limit whilst climbing something steep, you have to make up all the extra with your legs.

Note: All power mentioned in this Mission Control example is mechanical power output by the motor. If you look in the stats screen of Mission Control whilst riding you will see electrical power consumed by the motor which will be higher. Re-read this article a few times and if still completely unsure...

I'm using a Wahoo Bolt with my Levo SL. The power reading seems to be quite high. Is this the sum of rider power and motor power or how do I interpret it? I don't want to sych this to my Training Peaks as it shows high power output with low heart rate = falsely inflated fitness level. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dfgomez]

Good question - firstly - here's a link to the User Guide. Secondly, below is more detailed clarification that may help some.

Support = the multiplier of rider power added by the motor
Peak Power = maximum electrical power available to supply the motor

In terms of support, each e-Bike motor is slightly different. 100% on the slider means 4.1x rider power for 2019 Levo (2.1 motor), 3.8x for 2018 Levo (1.3 motor) and 3.2x for older Levo (1.2)

When you talk about motor power, bear in mind that two types of power regularly get confused when discussing e-bikes:

a) Electrical input power (battery power that the motor consumes)
b) Mechanical output power (motor power that is added to rider power at the crank)

Mission Control (+ all other apps using ANT data) measure the electrical input power to the motor (Battery Voltage x Current). This is what you see if you view the stats page whilst riding, and it's what you limit when you reduce peak power - if you reduce peak power to 50% you're effectively limiting the motor to draw up to 50% of maximum permitted battery current. Reducing peak power therefore helps you to preserve battery life/range.

In the real world, what you actually care about/feel is the mechanical output power of the motor. Motors are not 100% efficient, some power is lost to heat so let's use 75% efficiency as an arbitrary estimate. In this example, for every 100W of electrical power the battery supplies to the motor you'd get 75W mechanical power at the crank.

However there are two other things to bear in mind - YOU are not 100% efficient either, often riding in the wrong gear and asking the motor to do all the hard work - PLUS the motor is happiest when you ride in the right gear at a good cadence - let's say 70-90 rpm. So when you're riding in optimum gear and around 80rpm, you're turning 75% of the electrical power consumed into mechanical power - but when you're riding in the wrong gear at 40rpm uphill don't expect the same results!

Below is a graph (data presented by us but measured/validated by an independent lab) showing how power varies with cadence for a number of motors - you can see that aiming for a constant cadence of around 80-90rpm will not only give you optimum power but also efficiency. Whether you are after power or range, pedaling at the right RPM makes a big difference.

View attachment 11048

To put all of this together, let's talk through the default support settings in Mission Control. You can change these to suit your riding style at any time, but let's use these as an example.

View attachment 11050

In Turbo mode on a 2019 Levo with 4.1x rider support at 100%, you'll only need to put in about 140W rider power for the motor to supply you with the maximum assist of 560W (taken from the graph above), assuming you're spinning at about 80-90 rpm. Lots of fun, also useful to get to the trail but possibly too powerful for steep climbing - especially if the ground covering is loose.

On the same bike with Support set to 35%, you're getting approx 1.5x rider support. This will feel much more natural to ride and you'll use less battery - in Trail mode with 100% peak power the motor will still reach it's maximum assist of 560W but this time you need to put in 390W rider power to get there. You get more of a work out and in practice you'll use far less battery. Aim for this mode to give you the best blend of power and efficiency so that you also have optimum control for trail riding.

In Eco mode with support set to 35% you still have approx 1.5x rider support - however you're now limited to 35% peak power (35% of 560W is approx 200W maximum motor assistance). In practice this means that you'll get linear support from the motor up until you put in about 140W rider power (200W added from the motor), but above 140W rider power you'll still only receive 200W support from the motor. This is great to preserve battery life but if you hit that peak support limit whilst climbing something steep, you have to make up all the extra with your legs.

Note: All power mentioned in this Mission Control example is mechanical power output by the motor. If you look in the stats screen of Mission Control whilst riding you will see electrical power consumed by the motor which will be higher. Re-read this article a few times and if still completely unsure...

But which one gets reported to apps like Strava and Training Peaks. If I upload a ride from my SL average power is different on both apps. Help please!

 

[Mikerb]

I think it is specified. Brose confirmed it somewhere but I'd need to dig that figure out.

565 watts peak....on the description of the Turbo Levo on the Specialized.com website.

 

[Adam Thomas]

Great thread . Back story. Im a bigger guy at 95kg 209lb 6ft . I rode with a friend last week on a Norco VLT 2019 he is a 20kg lighter than me his bike is 20kg mine is 25kg so we have a combined 25kg weight difference . Also my Kenevo has a 95NM motor and the Shimano is 75NM im guessing. The combination of the extra weight and the more powerful motor = a greater drain on the battery in comparison. Obviously !! This brings me to the mission control. I watched a you tube clip explaining the difference between support and power. Overall I dropped the support levels across all three maps . I basically made the maps feel like it was changing gears no massive jump in power gains. This change in performance made quit a difference in the amount of battery used in my standard loop . Please help with my app doesn't have the shuttle mode. Is shuttle the same as walk mode ??? If not what is shuttle mode and is it a 2020 thing or my app needs updating . Cheers guys !! Disclaimer pic is from a friends tune which I copied NOT MINE !!

 

[Mikerb]

According to your photo of MC you do have shuttle mode and have it set at 0%. Shuttle mode enables minimal rider torque input to access max power providing you maintain a high cadence. As its name infers it is designed to enable least rider input for running up a long fire road ascent back to the trail head.

 

[Adam Thomas]

According to your photo of MC you do have shuttle mode and have it set at 0%. Shuttle mode enables minimal rider torque input to access max power providing you maintain a high cadence. As its name infers it is designed to enable least rider input for running up a long fire road ascent back to the trail head.

Thats actually a screen shot of another riders set up. I copied his tune and im now getting much better battery life. And yes I don't have the shuttle option on my mission control. I wonder why ?

 

[Nickc1969]

So which colleges are running courses in understanding all this?

I am running standard settings.

what is the best thing to change to get a little better battery life?

Should I reduce eco from 35/35, and trail from 35/100?

what will have the effect on battery life? Support or PP?

 

[Adam Thomas]

In my understanding and I am no authority on this topic. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong . Support means the moment you apply pressure to the pedals. EG if you have 100% support the moment you push on the pedals you will receive 100% . Not ideal on tight technical uphill with start stop. . In its most basic set up the higher the power out put the more juice you will use. This also depends how hard you want to work. You can ride turbo everywhere and chew through the battery I no time flat. To improve battery life lower all your levels across eco and trail and only use 100% on the steepest of climbs . Experiment with it !!