Levo Gen 2 Turbo Levo won't roll backwards

[RebornRider]

My bike behaves perfectly normally while I'm riding it. Normal power, normal noises, normal coasting, can pedal backwards as normal. But starting about a week ago, I can't push the bike backwards into its parking slot in the garage. Power on, power off, battery cable unplugged, it doesn't matter. I think the tire would skid if I pushed hard enough. And no, the brake isn't stuck on! It will roll forwards, but not backwards.

It's as if the motor clutch was stuck, but I can coast with the pedals stationary, and run the pedals backwards while coasting and while stopped.

I searched for "backwards" on this forum and didn't see anything that looked like this problem. Anybody else experience this?

I'm on the latest "over the air" firmware, FWIW.

 

[Mabman]

It should be good at starting out on a hill

 

[RebornRider]

It should be good at starting out on a hill

I haven't needed that recently, but good point!

 

[Bigtuna00]

Mine is harder to move backwards, definitely not freely spinning, but not locked up by any means. Back pedaling has nothing to do with the problem you describe. The crank axle is in on a sprag clutch so it can backpedal independent of the spider. When you roll the bike backwards, the chain is turning the spider, which in turn is directly connected to the motor by the belt. I.e. it sounds like your motor won't spin backwards. If I had to guess there's probably another sprag clutch in there somewhere that's gone bad.

None of this really matters as the motor isn't serviceable, so take it to your LBS for replacement.

 

[Rosemount]

Won`t wheel back wards = new motor .

 

[RebornRider]

New motor #2.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Mine was like this a couple of weeks ago after I used it as a submarine.

If you get any moisture in there from submersion, jet wash and so on it will rapidly increase the chance of sprag clutch failure.

Fortunately (for now) .. mine's fixed itself ..

 

[Velo Mangler]

My bike behaves perfectly normally while I'm riding it. Normal power, normal noises, normal coasting, can pedal backwards as normal. But starting about a week ago, I can't push the bike backwards into its parking slot in the garage. Power on, power off, battery cable unplugged, it doesn't matter. I think the tire would skid if I pushed hard enough. And no, the brake isn't stuck on! It will roll forwards, but not backwards.

It's as if the motor clutch was stuck, but I can coast with the pedals stationary, and run the pedals backwards while coasting and while stopped.

I searched for "backwards" on this forum and didn't see anything that looked like this problem. Anybody else experience this?

I'm on the latest "over the air" firmware, FWIW.

Equals new motor in the Specialized hospital waiting room. 2020 Levo comp 3 motors to date.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Equals new motor in the Specialized hospital waiting room. 2020 Levo comp 3 motors to date.

I wish people would be a bit more transparent when they just lay out their statistics about how many motors they've destroyed.

For instance, I'm guessing you use a levociraptor ?

Your Question : Can the Levociraptor firmware be detected on my bike after I remove it for warranty work?

Levociraptor

All orders outstanding will be shipped this week. Looking forward to customers enjoying their bikes fully? Might need a booster battery soon? More speed uses more power?

www.emtbforums.com

I'm sure you love your levo, (only just noticed that levo is an anagram of love ) but you're US based, so you already have a standard 32kph limit as opposed to the Euro 25kph limit, so we have no idea how hard your pushing your motor. If you were honest about it, you'd actually have voided any warranty you had anyway ??

If people were a bit more open about things, we might have more chance to working out why some people seem to have these multiple failures and other people have none at all.

 

[RebornRider]

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

The fault is apparently aggravated or caused by heat. Yesterday, immediately after a 22 mile ride that was not leisurely, the bike did not want to roll backwards. Today, before I started my ride, the bike rolled backwards without any resistance. After the ride, which was the same as yesterday, the bike did not want to roll backwards.

It was not locked up, just very hard to push. I'll chat with my lbs tomorrow.

 

[Rosemount]

I wish people would be a bit more transparent when they just lay out their statistics about how many motors they've destroyed.

For instance, I'm guessing you use a levociraptor ?

Your Question : Can the Levociraptor firmware be detected on my bike after I remove it for warranty work?

Levociraptor

All orders outstanding will be shipped this week. Looking forward to customers enjoying their bikes fully? Might need a booster battery soon? More speed uses more power?

www.emtbforums.com

I'm sure you love your levo, (only just noticed that levo is an anagram of love ) but you're US based, so you already have a standard 32kph limit as opposed to the Euro 25kph limit, so we have no idea how hard your pushing your motor. If you were honest about it, you'd actually have voided any warranty you had anyway ??

If people were a bit more open about things, we might have more chance to working out why some people seem to have these multiple failures and other people have none at all.

No seals against ingress of water or grit , plastic cages on the sprag bearings .
Some one in the accounting Dept thought that saving a few cents on these details would lead to bigger profits . Sadly this is often the case . Economics over rules engineering .

1 motor couldn`t wheel backwards , sounded like a blender full of ice [ sprag clutch ? ] . Another got sand in the crank bearing made a grinding sound when pedaled backwards .
Upgraded the sprag , crank bearing and added seals with help from The Bearing Man .

 

[Zimmerframe]

No seals against ingress of water or grit , plastic cages on the sprag bearings .
Some one in the accounting Dept thought that saving a few cents on these details would lead to bigger profits . Sadly this is often the case . Economics over rules engineering .

We know about yours And the intrinsic problems. You also forgot to mention the software issue on the 2.1's which caused micro pulses which put additional strain on the sprag/belt - hence the warranty extension on those bikes (and yet still the flat earthers refuse to upgrade their firmware and will then complain when their motor fails).

Yes, water is a motor killer. Get that inside and things start to rust up and kaboom - your motor's shot. Better sealing and stronger sprag bearings would be the dream, and fortunately for us Bearing man makes the dream a reality. Maybe you could argue the motor should be like that as standard, but you could still upgrade your motor with Bearing man without waiting for a fail if you wanted to. Just as some people will extend the breathers and fit a snorkel to their vehicle rather than drowning their engine.

There's a whole host of reasons why. Some people are just unlucky. Some people jet wash and don't care. Some people ride through deep water and pretend it never happened.

The ones that are interesting are the 3/4/5 motor people. The majority of people have no failures, yet some have multiple.

Is this due to the dynamics of how they ride which is somehow incompatible with the way the sprag works ?

Do they have more pedal strikes, or some other form of impact, either because of where or how they ride ?

Is it how they transport their bikes ?

Is it something to do with how they wash it ? Is the motor warm and the air in the motor warm so as it cools with washing, the air contracts creating negative pressure and actually drawing water in ?

Is the bike so loved, it's washed in the bath ?

I'm not saying any of these are what happens, or that any of these people purposefully abuse their bikes or are negligent, but there must be some pattern which is different for multiple motor failure people than for others. It would just be interesting to try to work out what that might be.

If you knew, you could try to avoid what causes the problem. I doubt anyone wants a failed motor.

 

[RebornRider]

I'm hoping this thread can get back to the original issue. I rode the bike over to my lbs today, but it would not misbehave. It rolled backward and forward normally in their parking lot.

Then I did my usual Pleasanton Ridge route that includes a total of 2900 feet of climbing. I stopped after one of the longer steep stretches to test the bike. It did not want to roll backwards. It wasn't locked up, but it was very hard to push. The bike acted completely normal on the ride.

When I got down from the ridge, I rode to the bike shop instead of home. When I got there, of course the bike rolled backward normally. The shop can't fix it if it isn't broken, so I rode home. The backward push into the garage seemed a little stiff, but not bad.

It's tempting to think motor heat might be a factor, but sometimes it rolls backward normally when hot, and sometimes it won't roll backward when it's cool. It seems to be random.

My current plan is to keep riding until it gets worse.

 

[Rosemount]

How many motors have you blown? 2019 levo only

My mission control app is showing that there is an firmware update available and please visit your retailer

www.emtbforums.com

Tedgar said:
Did it fail the same with high pitch squeal or just die?

The pitch is not so high, but it is similar. I can hear that something in the motor is spinning, but the rear wheel is not moving. Also, it is not possible to spin the rear wheel backwards which is exactly what happened before.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I'm hoping this thread can get back to the original issue. I rode the bike over to my lbs today, but it would not misbehave. It rolled backward and forward normally in their parking lot.

Then I did my usual Pleasanton Ridge route that includes a total of 2900 feet of climbing. I stopped after one of the longer steep stretches to test the bike. It did not want to roll backwards. It wasn't locked up, but it was very hard to push. The bike acted completely normal on the ride.

When I got down from the ridge, I rode to the bike shop instead of home. When I got there, of course the bike rolled backward normally. The shop can't fix it if it isn't broken, so I rode home. The backward push into the garage seemed a little stiff, but not bad.

It's tempting to think motor heat might be a factor, but sometimes it rolls backward normally when hot, and sometimes it won't roll backward when it's cool. It seems to be random.

My current plan is to keep riding until it gets worse.

It does sound like the motor is duff and as you say, heat related ..

But...

You say it's hard to push backwards. If the sprag is seizing, it should also be hard to turn the pedals backwards. Ignoring moving the bike.

Whilst it's massively unlikely, have you tried turning the back wheel backwards when it's like this with the chain pulled away ? Just in case...

When you try to push the bike backwards, do you hold the grip and the funny lever thing at the same time ?

 

[RebornRider]

It does sound like the motor is duff and as you say, heat related ..

But...

You say it's hard to push backwards. If the sprag is seizing, it should also be hard to turn the pedals backwards. Ignoring moving the bike.

Whilst it's massively unlikely, have you tried turning the back wheel backwards when it's like this with the chain pulled away ? Just in case...

When you try to push the bike backwards, do you hold the grip and the funny lever thing at the same time ?

I'm pretty sure the pedals spin backwards with almost zero resistance when the bike is in its 'won't go backwards' mode, but that is worth confirming. I'll also check the wheel with the chain off the next time the bike acts up.

The guy at the bike shop asked if I stopped the bike, got off, and then maybe shifted up or down a few sprockets before trying to roll the bike backward.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Actually, I think I'm having brain fade. The cranks spinning backwards freely doesn't eliminate all the motor possibilities. But it's still worth checking.

 

[Mikerb]

there are 2 sprag bearings. One that transmits power from the motor to the belt pulley and one on the crankshaft which connects the crank to the pedal cranks.

 

[Boracho Muchacho]

We know about yours And the intrinsic problems. You also forgot to mention the software issue on the 2.1's which caused micro pulses which put additional strain on the sprag/belt - hence the warranty extension on those bikes (and yet still the flat earthers refuse to upgrade their firmware and will then complain when their motor fails).

Yes, water is a motor killer. Get that inside and things start to rust up and kaboom - your motor's shot. Better sealing and stronger sprag bearings would be the dream, and fortunately for us Bearing man makes the dream a reality. Maybe you could argue the motor should be like that as standard, but you could still upgrade your motor with Bearing man without waiting for a fail if you wanted to. Just as some people will extend the breathers and fit a snorkel to their vehicle rather than drowning their engine.

There's a whole host of reasons why. Some people are just unlucky. Some people jet wash and don't care. Some people ride through deep water and pretend it never happened.

The ones that are interesting are the 3/4/5 motor people. The majority of people have no failures, yet some have multiple.

Is this due to the dynamics of how they ride which is somehow incompatible with the way the sprag works ?

Do they have more pedal strikes, or some other form of impact, either because of where or how they ride ?

Is it how they transport their bikes ?

Is it something to do with how they wash it ? Is the motor warm and the air in the motor warm so as it cools with washing, the air contracts creating negative pressure and actually drawing water in ?

Is the bike so loved, it's washed in the bath ?

I'm not saying any of these are what happens, or that any of these people purposefully abuse their bikes or are negligent, but there must be some pattern which is different for multiple motor failure people than for others. It would just be interesting to try to work out what that might be.

If you knew, you could try to avoid what causes the problem. I doubt anyone wants a failed motor.

Who is this mythical Bearing Man and how do we find him?

 

[Bearing Man]

Who is this mythical Bearing Man and how do we find him?

He's here ? How can I help?

 

[Boracho Muchacho]

He's here ? How can I help?

Although I live in a drier climate (Colorado) I am interested in better seals for my 2020 Levo expert carbon.

 

[RebornRider]

He's here ? How can I help?

OP here. What do you think is going wrong inside my motor case given these symptoms:

• Bike pedals and coasts normally
• Motor does not make unusual noises while riding
• Sometimes it is *very* hard to push the bike backwards (which turns the chainring)
• Sometimes there is noticeable resistance to the backwards push, but it's not super hard to push
• Most of the times when I check, the bike pushes backwards with no resistance (e.g. at my lbs)
• When the problem occurs, pushing the bike backwards causes a "shhhh" noise from the motor
• Crank clutch spins freely (back pedaling)
• Problem happens with the battery connected and with the battery disconnected

 

[Mikerb]

Whilst you are waiting for the expert to reply, my guess is the resistance you feel is the crank turning the motor over ( the wrong way) meaning the sprag bearing is occasionally failing to release.

 

[RebornRider]

Whilst you are waiting for the expert to reply, my guess is the resistance you feel is the crank turning the motor over ( the wrong way) meaning the sprag bearing is occasionally failing to release.

I watched the Bearing Man YouTube video on rebuilding our Brose motor/transmission so now I understand about there being two sprag bearings. Now I'm wondering if there is something I can do (that Spesh would not treat as abuse!) that would either prolong sprag life or hasten its final death. As mentioned above, the lbs is not going to fix it if I can't demonstrate the problem to them. So far I have not been able to predict when the bike will misbehave.

 

[salko]

When it happens record it with a smart phone and show the video to LBS. If this not helping, use different LBS or contact Specialized directly.

 

[Rosemount]

I watched the Bearing Man YouTube video on rebuilding our Brose motor/transmission so now I understand about there being two sprag bearings. Now I'm wondering if there is something I can do (that Spesh would not treat as abuse!) that would either prolong sprag life or hasten its final death. As mentioned above, the lbs is not going to fix it if I can't demonstrate the problem to them. So far I have not been able to predict when the bike will misbehave.

Ride it in Turbo ,on a steep gradient, in sauna like heat, using the highest gear , with a cadence like a Clydesdale ,whilst pedal striking at every opportunity . That should help hasten , if not finish er off .

Heat , low cadence and high torque were all named as enemies of Brose motors by Spesh Oz . Pedal strikes is a TBM theory . Extrapolated by Zimmer .

 

[Bearing Man]

Although I live in a drier climate (Colorado) I am interested in better seals for my 2020 Levo expert carbon.

Same for fine dust as it is for water. We see a lot of issues from places like Australia, Texas, California etc. The seals do the same job.

 

[Bearing Man]

OP here. What do you think is going wrong inside my motor case given these symptoms:

• Bike pedals and coasts normally
• Motor does not make unusual noises while riding
• Sometimes it is *very* hard to push the bike backwards (which turns the chainring)
• Sometimes there is noticeable resistance to the backwards push, but it's not super hard to push
• Most of the times when I check, the bike pushes backwards with no resistance (e.g. at my lbs)
• When the problem occurs, pushing the bike backwards causes a "shhhh" noise from the motor
• Crank clutch spins freely (back pedaling)
• Problem happens with the battery connected and with the battery disconnected

Mikerb is right. The only thing that can logically cause the issue you have is a failing sprag bearing in the motor drive pulley. It will eventually fail completely, but unfortunately this my take 5 minutes or 5 months ?‍

 

[Bearing Man]

Ride it in Turbo ,on a steep gradient, in sauna like heat, using the highest gear , with a cadence like a Clydesdale ,whilst pedal striking at every opportunity . That should help hasten , if not finish er off .

Heat , low cadence and high torque were all named as enemies of Brose motors by Spesh Oz . Pedal strikes is a TBM theory . Extrapolated by Zimmer .

Sadly it’s not all pedal strikes, many people we talk to have never suffered a strike or even fallen off. The bearing does just wear and fail in normal use too. High temp won’t hurt the bearing, or low cadence high torque, these are more belt killers. But shock does seem to hasten a bearings demise. I suspect this could also be caused by rough terrain, poor gear changes under load etc. We tend to see crank sprag bearing failure from hard riders and motor pulley sprag failure from more gentle road riders that keep the motor around its restricted cutout limit. Each time you go above 15.5mph the motor cuts for example, then when you drop below this speed the motor kicks in and momentarily has to catch up with the other moving parts, this could put constant small shock loads through the bearing? Just another theory we are working on.

 

[RebornRider]

I wondered about the rough terrain. I have another thread here about switching to a coil shock because there is so much washboard hard pack on my regular trail. Some of it is in high speed sections that must be rough on the bike.

Edit: I'm in the US, and I've learned to stay below the ~20 mph motor cutoff on the flats. I don't think I've had excessive engage/disengage cycles.