Should I have started this caper with an analogue bike?

[Zed]

All good mate. It's been a tense thread lol

 

[Gary]

I had assumed Zed had sand in his pants all along but didn't for a second imagine he was wiping his head with them while reading my replys.

PS.
@apac after (rightly) saying not to intentionally bunny hop or pull on the take off Pilgs does actually mention that to unweight its just a tiny hop. Unweghting a bike in an even and controlled manner is not done through simply pushing down through the pedals alone and waiting for the bike to rebound as Zed keeps saying it is.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

 

[Zed]

A full video from the Don about preloading.
(7) How To Preload On Your MTB & When To Use It | Mountain Bike Skills - YouTube
at 2:55 in the same video, using the same technique over a rooty section. This is exactly what I was talking about.

More jumpy orientated, but it's where the technique goes
(7) Practice Like a Pro #25: Steep-Faced Jumps | MTB Skills - YouTube
From 1:50:
Q: "Is this all driven through my feet?"
A: "Yes, all of our pressure is in our feet"

 

[brw0513]

Hi all. Thanks for the replies. Things sure can get toasty warm around here at times

The earlier reference to sex has me thinking. Just like wheelies, I'm not much good at that either. But I have three daughters and still have fun doing it. So the absolute basics must be ok.

In overall summary, I think I need to moderate my expectations. Progress, not perfection. Load the front end, extend arms when moving rearwards and use my generous momentum to try to lob the front end. Cover the rear brake always to the point of applying it when not actualy needed. Practice until tired, then drink beer.

I could be into worse things. Like electric scooters that can do 40km/h.

Thanks all.

 

[Mountainebiker]

Wheel lift Vs manual (I think that is what the above argument was about) is explained really well in this Trail Boss video.

Ryan Leech does a baseline basics online course which, if you've never mountain biked before, I'd suggest would be a great starting place before learning more advanced skills.

I have debated with others whether to learn skills on an emtb or learn them first on an MTB and then switch to emtb. For me, I don't ride another bike and therefore I prefer to just learn the skills on the emtb from the start in order that I can use them on the same bike in the trails.

 

[Zed]

after (rightly) saying not to intentionally bunny hop or pull on the take off Pilgs does actually mention that to unweight its just a tiny hop. Unweghting a bike in an even and controlled manner is not done through simply pushing down through the pedals alone and waiting for the bike to rebound as Zed keeps saying it is.

I don't know why I'm trying. I'm seriously a glutton for punishment.
But I'm actually really curious to read your rebuttal on this one.
What do you think about what Neil's saying in this one? The whole video.
(10) How To Preload On Your MTB & When To Use It | Mountain Bike Skills - YouTube
Bu especially at 2:55 in the same video, using the same technique over a rooty section. This is what I was talking about. "All I'm doing there, is preloading super hard".
Neil is most definitely saying pushing down through the pedals. I'm not saying there is absolutely no other action involved. I never said jam the bike down and then fully dead sailor it thereafter until landing. I said compress the bike through the pedals, use the rebound for lift. And that's what Neil is saying in this video, and not much more.
When you first pulled me up, I should have found and posted this video, and walked away. Because it's 100% what I was trying to convey.

 

[emtbPhil]

I've been trying to learn to manual my emtb but not had much success
Was literally sat on the boot of my car with a mate after riding yesterday saying I'm not sure how easy it is due to the weight of the battery in the frame etc...
Then a guy pulls up in a VW van - unloads 3 bikes, gets on his cube stereo - exactly the same bike as mine - manuals the full length of the car park and up a kerb....... DOH!

I think it's very much technique rather than the weight of the bike

 

[Gary]

I'm actually really curious to read your rebuttal on this one.

In every video you've linked to or quoted almost straight after the part you've fixated on the presenter/teacher/coach/pro rider/youtuber has either gone on to also say they're "performing a small hop", "it's like a hop" or in the case of the bloke with the girl actually tried to demonstrate a push through the pedals on camera while actually quite clearly also pushing/preloading through the bars.

2:55 in the same video, using the same technique over a rooty section. This is what I was talking about. "All I'm doing there, is preloading super hard".

FFS! Watch the FULL video. What does Neil say AFTER the part you've quoted?

Neil also clearly pulls as he launches off the small kicker he mentions before the roots to get the height to clear them and make the downlope cleanly.

What do you think

I think...

• You've wasted mine, your own and the OP's time here massively by obsessing over me picking up on the (not very good) advice you'd given and then refusing to believe the simple fact that control of a bike weighted or not is NEVER only through pedal input.
• You are a little unhinged with all the tantrums, slurs, blocking, un blocking, deleting and un-deleating of posts. Not to mention the massive U-turn in your last post
• You spend far too much time trawling youtube looking for skills videos without actually understanding what you are watching.
• Your self awareness and awareness of what is happening between you and your bike as you ride is lacking.

But it doesn't really matter what I "Think". I'd just like to move past this car crash and be on my way.

 

[Gary]

I've been trying to learn to manual my emtb but not had much success
Was literally sat on the boot of my car with a mate after riding yesterday saying I'm not sure how easy it is due to the weight of the battery in the frame etc...
Then a guy pulls up in a VW van - unloads 3 bikes, gets on his cube stereo - exactly the same bike as mine - manuals the full length of the car park and up a kerb....... DOH!

I think it's very much technique rather than the weight of the bike

Dude. You're correct. The technique is the same on a normal mtb as it is on an Emtb. But there is a subtle difference with much heavier bikes in exactly the same way there is with very long (wheelbase) bikes.
If you can manual a normal bike (you didn't mention this?) the process to raise the front wheel of a heavier or longer bike just means you need to exagerate the initial preload and weight shift movements. Much like it does between an FS bike and a hardtail only more so. With a long heavy FS Emtb the process needs to be exagerated a LOT. Probably more than you ever have before.
well timed kick through your legs pushing the rear wheel forwards also helps massively in pivoting the bike on the rear. Starting to think of the manual as a pivot off the rear axle should also help you visualise what you are trying to do.
Although manaulling (as in across the full length of a car park etc.) an Emtb takes more initial effort. once you are comfortably at the balance point it's actually easier and less involved holding it than it is on a lighter shorter bike.

 

[Zed]

FFS! Watch the FULL video. What does Neil say AFTER the part you've quoted?

He says preload is the start of a bunny hop. And then it basically becomes a bunny hop. But in saying how to execute it, he only talks about compressing the bike into the rise.

Neil also clearly pulls as he launches off the small kicker he mentions before the roots to get the height to clear them and make the downlope cleanly.

I'm not sure it's clear. He's literally behind a tree. Maybe he does. Even if he does, in this recent instructional video from a prominent channel he doesn't feel the need to mention it.

I think...

• You've wasted mine, your own and the OP's time here massively by obsessing over me picking up on the (not very good) advice you'd given and then refusing to believe the simple fact that control of a bike weighted or not is NEVER only through pedal input.

I never said, "control of a bike weighted or not is only through pedal input" or that I refused to believe differently. Please provide quotes or post numbers. That would be a ridiculous suggestion, I would never say that. I mean, there's handlebars and a seat.

• You are a little unhinged with all the tantrums, slurs, blocking, un blocking, deleting and un-deleating of posts. Not to mention the massive U-turn in your last post

A little unhinged. Yeah, ok, fair. Tantrums? I disagree - please provide post numbers/quotes. Slurs? You're referring to the autism suggestion, and that was stab at your rudeness, mainly inflamed from the other thread where you said I'd never been fit. I apologise. Other members have communicated you're actually nice in real life despite communicating poorly in forums. I believe them.
Blocking, un blocking, deleting is true, I'll wear it. It hasn't been my best moment.
If by U-turn you mean unblocking you, well, I've realised forcing myself to deal with difficult people presents opportunity for growth.

• You spend far too much time trawling youtube looking for skills videos without actually understanding what you are watching.

Using words to describe what I wanted to communicate didn't work, you just didn't seem to comprehend what I was saying. So I tried to find other reputable sources to assist in making my point. If I'd just found that GMBN video immediately we could have put this to bed straight away. So I don't think looking at youtube vids is detrimental, and I really do think I understand them. I feel a youtube video can communicate this sort of thing a lot better than say, forum posts.
You seem to agree with what is said in that GMBN video. Which means we're in agreement about the technique being valid. That means job done here for me. That's all I wanted, an agreement that the technique is valid.

Your self awareness and awareness of what is happening between you and your bike as you ride is lacking.
But it doesn't really matter what I "Think". I'd just like to move past this car crash and be on my way.

Here's what's happening through this all this shemozzle, I get it now, and yeah it's taken embarrassingly long as I got fired up and couldn't see the forest for the trees.

You're coming from the technical perspective of a coach. You're thinking about the minutiae of it all, biomechanics, fine details. That's great and shows a real depth of understanding that I admit I just don't share. But I disagree that it necessarily needs to be thrust on a beginner. If you do and that's how you teach then great. But I think GMBN clearly thought along the same lines as me when they made that video and didn't mention it all.

There should be a sticky thread about technique. Perhaps you could make one. Referencing the best instructional videos, maybe with an advanced section linking to the wordy stuff you like - but properly rounded out. I'm sorry but you can't throw a few posts in a thread like this and expect to communicate all these intricacies clearly. Quantum mechanics won't fit on a postage stamp. What you end up with is a train wreck, like this thread. And don't put it ALL on me. It takes two to tango.

Definitely my initial post was cobbled together far too hurriedly and believe me I would not make that mistake again. In fact, I'd just find a video to communicate about technique.

 

[emtbPhil]

Dude. You're correct. The technique is the same on a normal mtb as it is on an Emtb. But there is a subtle difference with much heavier bikes in exactly the same way there is with very long (wheelbase) bikes.
If you can manual a normal bike (you didn't mention this?) the process to raise the front wheel of a heavier or longer bike just means you need to exagerate the initial preload and weight shift movements. Much like it does between an FS bike and a hardtail only more so. With a long heavy FS Emtb the process needs to be exagerated a LOT. Probably more than you ever have before.
well timed kick through your legs pushing the rear wheel forwards also helps massively in pivoting the bike on the rear. Starting to think of the manual as a pivot off the rear axle should also help you visualise what you are trying to do.
Although manaulling (as in across the full length of a car park etc.) an Emtb takes more initial effort. once you are comfortably at the balance point it's actually easier and less involved holding it than it is on a lighter shorter bike.

Im a late bloomer. Never did much on bikes when I was younger. I played ice hockey

really enjoying learning it now though
Im off to find a car park and practice a bit this week. I struggle to even get the front wheel up high enough. I assumed it was the bike weight and my weight but I might not be preloading enough or not getting back enough

shame this thread got dragged into calling people autistic (you should think about families with autistic kids Zed before slinging that around like an insult) as it’s definitely interesting reading about technique and where to use the skill

 

[Gary]

Forums and Facebook are full of folk who post advice, second hand tips they've read, watched or been told and instructional videos on riding when they don't actually possess the skills themselves. And YouTube is full of instructional videos ranging from absolutely terrible to very good. Just because a skills video is high production and presented by a good rider does not automatically mean the information in it is correct or good.

You are of course correct in realising a few forum posts are not often enough to communicate all the fine points to cover all aspects of each skill. But for that matter neither is a 10 minute youtube video.
Ryan Leech's 30 day wheelie guide is a good example of just how much information and how many steps one basic fundamental skill can be broken down to and written about to cover the mechanics, physics, motor skills and mental process of how to perform it.
Thing is most advanced riders (including Ryan) taught themselves all of those steps without reading a word, watching a video or really discussing it in depth at all. And again. This doesn't mean just because a rider can perform a skill flawlessly they are able to break it down and communicate how to replicate it to others.

I wasn't thrusting anything on the OP. I simply wanted him to realise what you didn't seem to concerning weighting and unweighting his bike.

But let's not go over this any longer.

 

[#mitch]

Here is a fantastic example of a pop off flat to drop Watch this story by Pinkbike on Instagram before it disappears. The story probably will disappear so here it is on YouTube Pink bike story