Should I have started this caper with an analogue bike?

[brw0513]

I'm 52 years old and only moderately fit but making an improvement. Never had a mountain bike before. Never even ridden on gravel. But I bought a used Merdia e160 900e and love it.

I commute to work twice a week - around 48km round trip. It's a blast even in trail mode. The bike is de-restricted to 32km/h but I still get passed by fitter people and a gazillion electric scooters.

Three weeks ago I had my first taste of trails. I'm still smiling. The surprising thing was that I thought I wanted to ride the open, faster flowing trails where visibility was high. But surprisingly, it was the tighter, slower trails I really enjoyed. So much so, I want to learn the skills to glide over obstacles rather than bash through them.

So I've started practicing slow riding and wheelies. I'm rubbish. I thought I was progressing, so got the wife to take some videos. It was worse than rubbish. I looked like a Tele-Tubbie forced do something unnatural.

I'm wondering if I should just use the Merida to get to work for a few months and get a lighter analogue MTB for developing skills and learning tricks. Would I progress quicker?

I would still need to ride an eMTB on the trails to keep my mates in sight. They are 20 years younger than me and have been riding MTBs forever.

The Merida is just so damn heavy. I can't really feel the difference between lifting the wheel 6 inches and looping out when trying to wheelie.

Any suggestions?

 

[Jackware]

Even if you can't wheelie yet at least you've given your wife a laugh

 

[brw0513]

Even if you can't wheelie yet at least you've given your wife a laugh

Not really. My wife doesn't see the point.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Not really. My wife doesn't see the point.

She probably thinks the same about horizontal jogging, but I'm sure that's never put you off

 

[B1rdie]

Yes, a light bike will be a lot easyer to learn on. Ryan Leech sells a 30 days wheelie course that is the most detailed I have seen, but you need some patience because he is maybe too detailed.
Feathering the brakes is the key skill to wheelie the ebike because controlling the power through the pedals envolves motor unpredictability.

 

[Gary]

Feathering the brakes is the key skill to wheelie the ebike because controlling the power through the pedals envolves motor unpredictability.

hmmm... Sort of agree with you here, sort of don't. it's definitely how most folk will wheelie an Emtb but it's not "key"
I barely ever touch my brakes when I wheelie or manual as that's how I learned back in the 70s and I've never bothered to learn to feather or brake drag to hold the balance point on a bike at all and simply don't have that fine motor skill.
When I first got Ebikes the disconnection from actual pedal pressure to what is delivered through the crank made wheelying pretty sketchy and a bit of a fight to stay balanced but I've now got it pretty dialled continuing to ignore my rear brake. Not quite to the same level as on normal bikes, which I can hold a wheelie on for miles with far less concentration and thought. as such my body position needs more adjustment than a brake dragger would. But nowhere near as much as brakeless manualling my BMX. I can manual downhill for ages brakeless but can't coaser wheelie downhill very far without standing back up into manuals as it's far too scary to stay sat down with practically no rear brake dragging skill.

But yes @brw0513 . Buying a normal mtb to learn slow speed handling skills, hopping and jumping is a good idea. A cheap hardtail will do. infact if you manage to learn all the fundamentals to a decent level on a hardtail it will make you a far better all round rider. a shorter (wheelbase, reach & chainstays) bike with more standover is way easier and more fun to learn trailsy moves, tricks and jumping and hopping and way easier to raise the front wheel to wheelie/manual but contrary to popular beilef is actually HARDER to hold at balance point.
I commute a fair bit on my Emtb too despite having a nice roadbike that'd take a similar duration there and back mainly as the Emtb allows me to also have play on the way in and home, wheelying and manualling through traffic and hopping stuff etc.

 

[B1rdie]

I can barely only lift my front wheel to place it up something that shows on the trail and then hop on top of it.
How high? A sheep, not a cow…

 

[Gary]

Don't worry about it. The internet is full of folk handing out advice on how to perform tasks they can't actually manage themselves

 

[Zed]

The Merida is just so damn heavy. I can't really feel the difference between lifting the wheel 6 inches and looping out when trying to wheelie.

This is one of the main reasons that has kept me going back to an analog bike, and it probably will again one day - manuals, getting light over things, jumping over sections. A full fat 25kg eMtb, especially with longer travel like mine and yours, just wants to stick to the ground. I've kind of just accepted it and focus on segment speed instead... I just bash through and over most things, sometimes bunny hopping things that will slow me down a lot but not in anyway riding playfully like I would on an analog bike.

FWIW, the last truly playful bike I really had was a 27.5 Knolly Endorphin and I miss it. All the newer 29er bikes I've had never wanted to be on the backwheel everywhere like that thing did. That sort of bike is a dying breed - smaller wheels and shorter reach. I do wonder about the Santa Cruz 5010 though.

Great idea to have an analog bike to learn this stuff and play around, hardtail will be easiest, shorter travel FS next. But only if you really want to learn it. I'm not sure how much will ever really transfer to a full-fat ebike. Low powered ebike maybe, I don't know. You could just Enduro style plough through and over everything though, there's no law against it Especially if you're trying to learn to keep with guys much faster than you.

Wheelies are different I guess, there's power to bring the front up. Don't see it being a particular useful thing attacking a trail at speed.

Get your suspension settings sorted, pick your lines well, the 900e should be plenty capable at steamrolling everything

 

[RustyIron]

So I've started practicing slow riding and wheelies. I'm rubbish. I thought I was progressing, so got the wife to take some videos. It was worse than rubbish. I looked like a Tele-Tubbie forced do something unnatural.

I wouldn't get to wound up about not being able to jump like Danny MacAskill or ride wheelies like your whippersnapper friends. Ride for yourself. Progress at whatever rate you progress. Take the camera away from your wife so you won't have to see videos of what you look like. There's nothing you can do that won't make you look like a leprechaun or a douche bag... it's just the way mountain bikers dress.

To answer your question, an acoustic bike will make you stronger quicker. The acoustic will help you master some skills more quickly. And the eMTB will help you master other skills more quickly.

Relax, don't worry, have a good ride.

 

[apac]

I lost the ability to wheelie when wheel sizes went up from 26. Muscle memory doesn't seem to cut it wirh bigger wheels.

 

[Zed]

I would also add, learn to compress the bike into the ground and use it like a pogo stick. Just sink your weight hard into the pedals, and time it so the rebound is when you want to get light (or off the lip). It will help you get light over bits of rock garden roots etc, and doing it into little rises and ramps can get you off the ground. Then, progress to doing that into the front of small jumps, you can get a lot more air that way, all from the same little bit of technique that doesn't involve hoisting the front and is economical effort wise.

 

[Gary]

You're simplifying the idea of preloading, pumping and unweghting. Ie. It's not done just through the pedals. Anyone who has learned how to do all those things well can attest to all those skills being completely transferable to a heavy Ebike. These are also the same basic skills which will make raising the front of a heavy Ebike a lot less effort.
Take your time and learn to manual from the pump /preload and you'll be able to raise the front at will no matter the terrain. It's a timing weightshift thing as much as anything. Although you do need to preload harder with a heavier bike. And weightshift further with a longer bike
#physics

 

[Zed]

You're simplifying the idea of preloading, pumping and unweghting. Ie. It's not done just through the pedals. Anyone who has learned how to do all those things well can attest to all those skills being completely transferable to a heavy Ebike. They also make raising the front of a heavy Ebike a lot less effort.
Take your time and learn to manual from the pump /preload and you'll be able to raise the front at will no matter the terrain. It's a timing weightshift thing as much as anything. Although you do need to preload harder with a heavier bike #physics

That's all good but in the context of the OP:

Three weeks ago I had my first taste of trails ....
I want to learn the skills to glide over obstacles rather than bash through them ....
need to ride an eMTB on the trails to keep my mates in sight. They are 20 years younger than me and have been riding MTBs forever.

I'm not talking about manualling, I'm suggesting simply starting with compressing the bike, learning to time it, and using it to glide over obstacles - it seems to me like a great place to start. He's 52 and he's been riding 3 weeks and is just trying to keep up with his mates. Going from zero to manualling a full fat e-Mtb at high speed on trails seems like a big jump to me.

 

[Gary]

I was talking in the context of the OP. (I'm his age). There's little point in learning poor technique only to have to unlearn it again.

Ive taught 60yr old+ complete beginners to bunny hop properly. (J-hops). And to do so you first need to be able to preload into a manual. Age and inexperience are not that big a hurdle if taught correctly and you show willing to practice and put in the effort
I'm not talking about manualling a set distance (which is def more advanced and will take most riders a long time to master). I'm talking about the technique to pop the front up at will from the preload, kick and weightshift. And for that matter, the technique to pop the rear at will too. Just stabbing down at the pedals hoping the rebound raises the bike is good enough to show a rider how the physics works but it's really not a great technique to rely on on the trail. Especially doing it approaching (even small) rises/kickers on the trail as you suggest.

 

[7869hodgy]

A normal bike will help with fitness and may help your desire to wheelie.

 

[Zed]

I was talking in the context of the OP. (I'm his age). There's little point in learning poor technique only to have to unlearn it again.

Ive taught 60yr old+ complete beginners to bunny hop properly. (J-hops). And to do so you first need to be able to preload into a manual. Age and inexperience are not that big a hurdle if taught correctly and you show willing to practice and put in the effort
I'm not talking about manualling a set distance (which is def more advanced and will take most riders a long time to master). I'm talking about the technique to pop the front up at will from the preload, kick and weightshift. And for that matter, the technique to pop the rear at will too. Just stabbing down at the pedals hoping the rebound raises the bike is good enough to show a rider how the physics works but it's really not a great technique to rely on on the trail. Especially doing it approaching (even small) rises/kickers on the trail as you suggest.

First, I can do what you suggest. I'll just make that clear.

Preloading and uncompressing the bike works for me on many occasions doing speed runs down fast, rocky & rooty black trails, to get light over chunky sections. There's a lot of situations I use exactly that, that I simply cannot see doing as you suggest being more suitable - like boosting off a the ramp of a small jump (I would just go vertical). Or at high speed where I need the wheels on the ground urgently to take a corner. Hoisting the front wheel, no matter how elegantly, severely impacts ones ability to turn the bike.

And I disagree with the suggestion that leaving your weight on the back wheel is going to be better in all situations than just getting light.

Now if one needs to get the front lifted onto a 1 foot or more higher obstacle, then doing as you suggest would make more sense to me.

Watch any Enduro or DH race and do you see them doing as you say, or just getting light over sections because it's all happening so fast? I'm not talking about "look at me" bike review type videos with constant manuals and whips, but just going fast.

It seems to me giving a new rider more than one suggestion and more than one viewpoint is OK. That giving a new rider something they can start to use on their next ride, along with something they can aspire to longer term, is OK.

EDIT: Check out this, iconic run that I like to watch from time to time. Watch it, and let me know the instances you can spot Sam preload, kick and weightshift. Have a look also at the times you can see him get light. Which technique would you say he used at the 0:53 second mark?

Sam Hill 3rd, Val di Sole, 2008 - World Championship - YouTube

Hey, maybe he was doing it wrong. Maybe there's a thing or two you could teach him Gary?

 

[Gary]

At 0.53 Sam uses a classic front wheel lifted first J-hop prejump onto the backside of the next downslope. He subtly unweights and weights his front wheel the entire run

Get your eyes tested FFS and stop making up shit I didn't say

SIMPLY STABBING DOWNWARDS ON THE PEDALS HOPING THE REBOUND UN WEIGHTS YOU PERFECTLY AT THAT SPEED WOULD BE IDIOTIC (as you have far less control over the bike while in the air and placing it down again in doing so) .

 

[Zed]

SIMPLY STABBING DOWNWARDS ON THE PEDALS HOPING THE REBOUND UN WEIGHTS YOU PERFECTLY AT THAT SPEED WOULD BE IDIOTIC (as you have far less control over the bike while in the air and placing it down again in doing so) .

"Simply stabbing downwards" are your words, not mine.
I said:

learn to compress the bike into the ground and use it like a pogo stick. Just sink your weight hard into the pedals, and time it so the rebound is when you want to get light (or off the lip)

Starting with that, getting a feel for it, and overtime learning - for a 3 weeks in newbie - still sounds OK to me.

But I'm out. I dunno if you're on the spectrum, a troll, an idiot or some combination therein. My money's on autism. But I'm out. There's just no point trying to participate here if you're going to jump on me, take things far too literal, and cause me stress. It's just too much effort. I'll leave you to ruining the forum for everyone. Bye.

 

[Gary]

Take care

 

[TPEHAK]

I recommend you to learn wheelie on electric bicycle like I did. I learned it on maximum assist level. The first thing I trained learning wheelie is to use the rear brake to land the front wheel on the ground. I slightly popped the front wheel and used the rear brake. I always used it even it was not required to land the front wheel down. The purpose is safety, you really need to develop the reflex to use the rear brake first before you will start bringing the front wheel real high. If you will go straight to the balancing point (like some recommends) without developed reflex of using the rear brake you can set you up on the real f* up day and break your back or your neck or your bicycle. So train the rear brake first just slightly popping the front wheel. I spent about a month training just the rear brake reflex dayly couple times per day for 30 minutes session each time. Then you can start lifting the wheel higher and start looking for balance point and train balance left and right. It went slow for me, but I never crashed the bicycle and withing a few months I was able to ride maybe up to 30 meters on the rear wheel. Then I always practiced wheelie on my commute and after one year I was able to wheelie as long as I want on the straight line uphill or downhill or flat ground and do some shallow turns.

The benefit of ebike for wheelie is it allows you to wheelie at higher speed. When you learn to wheelie you need some speed to bring the front wheel down before the bike will go too slow. On acoustic bicycle you might find you in situation when you lifted the wheel too high and the speed is too slow and you have no energy to bring the front wheel down and you may fall on your back.

 

[Zed]

Oh you proved your point with a funny GIF way to go.

Dude, I will try to explain this before the mods get around to deleting my account

How you explained this:

I'm talking about the technique to pop the front up at will from the preload, kick and weightshift.

Take your time and learn to manual from the pump /preload and you'll be able to raise the front at will no matter the terrain.

To me, how you said that reads a lot more like:

than it does like:

or

From the discussed Sam Hill moment.

I hope you can see how maybe I might suggest the top image isn't a practical technique for high speed riding.

STOP HERE: Actually read the quotes above from you. Look at the images. Which image lines up with your words? Rhetorical question.

I'm sure you know what you're talking about. But maybe how you're talking about it isn't communicating what you know as clearly as you think it is?

He subtly unweights and weights his front wheel the entire run

Of course he does. But is "subtly unweights and weights his front wheel" the same as "preload, kick and weightshift"?

But your total lack of people skills... jeezus mate. You are seriously detracting from the appeal this forum by being so active on it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Hey @Zed reading the thread I can feel your pain. You're just trying to help the OP and pass on ideas.

As a third party reading the posts it doesn't seem like Gary's being particularly difficult, but imagining myself being in the conversation form your end, I'd imagine it just seems frustrating and like he's being a pain in the ass ! ?

It's always difficult with forums trying to relate to what someone is saying and why. Lots is often unsaid and we have to fill those blanks in ourselves, often detrimentally.

In this case, as someone who's somewhat of an expert in trying to find quicker and easier ways to do things on a bike, rather than doing them properly, I can see what Gary's trying to say.

For you, as an experienced rider who probably has good body position and knows how to move and relax, when you "pop" with your weight through the pedals you can probably lift the whole bike quite easily - you're probably also doing more, subconsciously, than you realise with the rest of your body.

I think the problem for a nooby is if you pop like that, you end up off balancing the bike, ending up high up, straight legged, straight armed with all your weight ending up over the bars and then when you hit what you want to pop over, you end up at a perfect attack angle to plough into it, hook up the front and fly over the bars - or at least have the whole bike slam solidly back up into your body through your un-bent arms.

What the grumpy one is saying is that many of us approach the whole thing completely incorrectly from the outset, make it difficult for ourselves to ride and make it even more difficult for ourselves to advance. It takes far longer to change how you do something than it does to learn it correctly from the outset. The bike is moving forwards, not backwards (most of the time....) so the front wheel will need to clear an object before the rear wheel - so logically the movement needs to begin at the front. Ignoring that, as it's not actually relevant to the procedure, you basically need to put energy into raising the front, or accelerating the front upwards, so that energy can be pushed against to bring the back wheel up. It's a bit like some weird eliptical see-saw .. (that's just my weird interpretation of it anyway). I'm sure you have this sussed yourself already, so this part is more for anyone else.

 

[Gary]

course he does. But is "subtly unweights and weights his front wheel" the same as "preload, kick and weightshift"?

Yes. It actually is.
Which is EXACTLY why I suggest every rider learn the less subtle more exaggerated version (you seem to be losing your shit over).

 

[Gary]

you're probably also doing more, subconsciously, than you realise with the rest of your body.

No probably about it. if he's managing to keep the bike level and under control while unweighted and landing it shows a massive lack of understanding and awareness if he thinks he's not also subtly weightshifting, pushing or kicking. Which is AGAIN why I'm suggesting all beginners should learn the more exaggerated procedure.

 

[Gary]

As for calling people "autistic" in a derogatory manner. With your tantrums, stubbornness, need to be right, unwillingness to accept others views and general obsessive behaviour you're not exactly trait free yourself bud
So...

STOP HERE:

?

 

[apac]

start at 3 minutes in. 'Be prepared to fall off the back when learning the pre load'....

 

[Gary]

One last quick question.
How well does your advice to

learn to compress the bike into the ground and use it like a pogo stick. Just sink your weight hard into the pedals, and time it so the rebound is when you want to get light

work with a hardtail?
Preloading the pedals is indeed a fundamental skill to learn.. But it's really not all that useful on its own.

 

[Zed]

start at 3 minutes in. 'Be prepared to fall off the back when learning the pre load'....

I seem to be speaking (typing) something other than English in this thread. I never talked about bunny hopping. I was talking about getting light over rocks and root etc, and preloading into rises and then jumps.

From 2:18
(2) HOW TO JUMP A MOUNTAIN BIKE - YouTube
Keep listening:
"you're not bunny hopping, you're not pulling or anything"
"For beginners, I would suggest just being unweighted at the top is going to be your safest option"

And hilariously:
Same, video, from 3:30
The alternate method... pulling up and doing much as Gary said - with Sam Pilgrim recommending that not for beginners but for people with more experience.

That's all I was talking about. Yes, things got lost in translation. Yes Gary's personality is like sandpaper on my frontal lobe. I've blocked him now. Let's all carry on with our lives.

 

[apac]

I seem to be speaking (typing) something other than English in this thread. I never talked about bunny hopping. I was talking about getting light over rocks and root etc, and preloading into rises and then jumps.

From 2:18
(2) HOW TO JUMP A MOUNTAIN BIKE - YouTube
Keep listening:
"you're not bunny hopping, you're not pulling or anything"
"For beginners, I would suggest just being unweighted at the top is going to be your safest option"

And hilariously:
Same, video, from 3:30
The alternate method... pulling up and doing much as Gary said - with Sam Pilgrim recommending that not for beginners but for people with more experience.

That's all I was talking about. Yes, things got lost in translation. Yes Gary's personality is like sandpaper on my frontal lobe. I've blocked him now. Let's all carry on with our lives.

Sorry?