Shimano/SRAM 12 speed compatibility [now a 10 speed thread]

[DrStupid]

I just bolted on a 12sp slx (RD-7100-sgs) long cage derailleur to my Trance e+ Pro1 Eagle system... and it works fine. I'm not gonna say its better than the GX/NX (yet) as I've only been on a few short rides, but it is at least as good as any of the three NX/Gx I've been fighting.


I also purchased the XT 12sp shifter but wanted to verify compatibility of the derailleur with existing system first.

I'm not trying to sell anybody on anything, I'm just saying it bolted up and shifts gears pretty much like it supposed to.

I'm gonna keep swapping parts towards the shimano 12 speed spec until I'm happy with the performance. If I can't get it to my liking, I will convert it all to an 11 sp. I know I like the two 11 speed setups I have, but could not find a lasting sweet spot with the eagle 12 speed.

 

[DrStupid]

Yesterday, I fitted the XT shifter having already determined that the sram eagle and shimano 12 speed mechs, shifters, and cassettes apparently interchange. NOT that the various hub drivers are compatible, but that a Shimano derailleur will work with a sram shifter on a sram cassette etc...

The XT shifter is a hoot, and seems to me the easiest way possible to add a little speed to your riding.

I'm still getting a little over shift when shifting to higher gears. This was one of my biggest complaints before, and while it's better with new kit installed, but I want to know what's causing it, and I'm gonna try a sunrace cassette to see if it's the pg-1230's cog profile or not. I've read reports of sunrace cassettes shifting better, worse, same over the PG 1230. I've read reports of sunrace cassettes lasting only 100s of miles or still going strong after 1000s and 1000s of miles. I'm gonna blow some hard earned cash and find out for myself. Ive read so much crazy shit that I dont know what to think. My KHS came fitted with a sunrace and its hands down the best shifting bike I've ridden .

I figured if it's good enough for an $8399 Orbea Wild FD-LTD and can be bought for $60 with Amazon Prime, I'll give it a spin.
CASSETTE Sun Race CSMZ80 11-51t 12-Speed Metalic E-bike

SunRace FH CASS CSMZ80 11-50 M-SL 12s
If it dont produce better shifting, I'm going full hyperglide plus micro spline whatever and if that doesn't sell me. It will be converted to 11 speed pronto.

 

[DrStupid]

About minute 8:10 of the video above you will see the reason some of our eagles work better after getting bent. And... likely why I find the shimano derailleurs shifts better.

Not bent. This is factory alignment.

Or it might amount to nothing?

 

[DrStupid]

Today after much knashing of teeth, and countless f-bombs. I discovered that some of my shifting woes were coming from my brand new PG-1230 cassette that had a bent spider. I noticed about 1mm of lateral runout on the big cogs.

I put the old cassette back on, and for one ride its shifting nicely.

I must be cursed to become an expert in 12 speeds (by some cruel twist of fate) or these things (1×12) are just not ready for me yet. Lol. Took my wife 18 years to get ready.

 

[DrStupid]

The sunrace cassette showed up, and I do think it shifts a little better than the PG-1230, but not enough for me to ever say it's the cure for a finicky Eagle or Shimano 12 Speed. So currently I have the SLX 12 speed derailleur, XT 12 speed shifter, Sunrace CSMZ80 cassette. I still say it's shit compared to the XT 11 Speed/sunrace combo, or the SLX 11 speed stuff.

I am waiting on the Shimano XT chain to arrive in hopes that it is the end all solution to my 12 speed troubles.

If the chain doesn't make the thing shift to my liking, I have to decide to go full micro-spline Shimano 12 speed cassette, in hopes that all the internet propaganda = TRUTH, or ditch all 12 speed hope, and pick up another XT 11 speed shifter. I am leaning towards the 11 speed as I already have cassettes and would need only a shifter.

I am fine with the 11-46 range on the 11 speed. It's just that the Trance came with a 12 speed, and I've been determined to make it work nicely.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

I am fine with the 11-46 range on the 11 speed. It's just that the Trance came with a 12 speed, and I've been determined to make it work nicely.

You may have already seen some of my posts where I think that even my 10 speed is already too much for how I ride. I'm still contemplating moving down to 9 or 8 speed. However, I'm gonna leave it alone for a while and give it more mileage and some more thought.

I wouldn't be surprised if you wouldn't miss out on anything if you went down to an 11 speed. I don't know if you noticed on the Nico Quere video that he changed to an 11 speed because he kept breaking 12 speed chains. If he can win an e-Enduro championship with one less gear, then whatever that missing gear was is obviously not disadvantageous to an eBike. I can only imagine an 11s would have less shifting dramas.

 

[DrStupid]

You may have already seen some of my posts where I think that even my 10 speed is already too much for how I ride. I'm still contemplating moving down to 9 or 8 speed. However, I'm gonna leave it alone for a while and give it more mileage and some more thought.

I wouldn't be surprised if you wouldn't miss out on anything if you went down to an 11 speed. I don't know if you noticed on the Nico Quere video that he changed to an 11 speed because he kept breaking 12 speed chains. If he can win an e-Enduro championship with one less gear, then whatever that missing gear was is obviously not disadvantageous to an eBike. I can only imagine an 11s would have less shifting dramas.

Yes. I noticed Nico using 11 also, and it has effected my mindset.

I'm almost done with 12 speeds. I've got one more thing to try, and then I'll be satisfied that I've tried everything within reason, and 12 speeds is just not for me.

One of the LBS guru's has told me he dont run a 12 speed fir basically the same trouble I'm having. Nice when it works... but.

I agree about all of what you say concerning the lesser gears. I am however pleased with my 11 speed setups, and have a decent selection of spares already so I'll likely stick with 11 sp.

Thanks for the help!

 

[DrStupid]

The $47 dollar shimano XT chain is absolulty no better for shifting than the $18 kmc chain.

The 12 speed shimano shifts about as well as the sram. I mean once it decides to shift, it not as clunky as a sram, but it still basically does what it wants, when it wants, depending on the weather, the time of day, the phase of the moon.... who knows. Its like schrodinger's cat, there is a probability formulation that will state your chances for a good shift, based on any number of possible initial conditions.

It seems to all come down to cable repeatability, and I believe there is enough variation in push versus pull versus the various positions of the rear suspension, that I'll never be happy with it.

I'm gonna skip 11 speed and go straight to 10 just becuase.

 

[andykent]

I have 12 speed xtr on my e bike and it works a treat, never had problem set up same way you set a 11 speed shimano and it works fine and dandy. Changing my normal bike to AXS when it arrives, when i had a shot of it at eurobike i thought the overall feel of it slightly nicer and crisper than xtr. Interesting to see how they compare.

I would agree that the cheaper sram eagle stuff can be a total dick to setup properly.

 

[Trail-Niels]

I think you may have damaged something in your drivetran @MrTeno2U or something is misaligned. My Eagle X01drivetrain still performs flawlessly after +7000 km running a cycle of 4 chains, and the cassette barely looks used, chains are barely stretched. The Eagle X01 virtually runs forever as far as I've experienced, and for now I'd never go for anything but the Eagle. I ride 12 months a year, whereof a majority is in wet and muddy conditions.

 

[DrStupid]

I'm totally at a loss. One day its ok. The next its terrible. I've tried all the normal stuff and some of the not so normal stuff. I might change everything from one of my 11 speeds to the trance, wheel included and see what happens.

I would rather believe that it's me, and my setup, than that all 12 speeds are just this bad! At the same time... I'm really tired of working on and just want to ride. Lol

 

[steve_sordy]

I had Eagle X01 and it was great at first but then I started with all sorts of hard to fix problems. The cure was buying a mech hanger alignment tool* and spending time getting it spot on, not "near enough" like the bike shops do. No further problems for thousands of miles.

* Like this one: Park Tool Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge DAG2.2 | Chain Reaction Cycles

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

I'm totally at a loss. One day its ok. The next its terrible. I've tried all the normal stuff and some of the not so normal stuff. I might change everything from one of my 11 speeds to the trance, wheel included and see what happens.

I would rather believe that it's me, and my setup, than that all 12 speeds are just this bad! At the same time... I'm really tired of working on and just want to ride. Lol

Check if crud got up your shifter cable. The inner metal cable might be seizing intermittently.

Also check the pivot points on your derailleur and maybe lube them with thin oil.

 

[DrStupid]

Will do. I'm gonna go over it all with a fine tooth comb one last time. I've got a hanger tool. New derailleurs, almost new cassettes, new cables and shifters. A spare rear wheel complete.

I would really like to understand what's happening.

It actually shifts well if I use the multi shift and multi release. It only remains stubborn on single shifts.

 

[iXi]

I had an NX derailleur and it wasn't bad with the odd dodge shift here and there then it disintegrated just riding along so I bought the GX and it's been flawless. Also bought a KMC x12 gold chain for $99 just to see if spending the extra coin on a quality chain makes a difference. 900kms in and still shifting flawless. Should mention I replaced the cassette, chain ring and shift cable all at the same time.

I posted a question on that ask embn about moving to a 10sp for ebikes and they replied with recommending an 8 speed. Go figure?

 

[Trail-Niels]

Will do. I'm gonna go over it all with a fine tooth comb one last time. I've got a hanger tool. New derailleurs, almost new cassettes, new cables and shifters. A spare rear wheel complete.

I would really like to understand what's happening.

It actually shifts well if I use the multi shift and multi release. It only remains stubborn on single shifts.

12 speed drivetrains are very sensitive, so I always use 100% compatible parts, meaning as I use SRAM, every component in the drivetrain is SRAM - and in my case always X01.
Did you adjust the B-tension screw to get correct distance from upper pulley to cassette?
Did you also change the outer cable casing? - does the cable move freely in the casing?
A hanger alignment tool is essential as @steve_sordy says. If I run into problems this is my go to tool, to see if everything is aligned. Hope you get it working.

 

[DrStupid]

Right now the only thing not Shimano is the cassette.

I can move the cable easy enough, I guess? I would estimate 3 or 4 ounces of pressure, but I've nothing to measures it with. Maybe a need a small fish scale.

The outer jacket is just a few weeks old..I replaced the inner again last night. I'm out of opti slick liners, else I would have changed that again. The trance seems to need the liner at full length no trimming. The ends are factory cut.

I greased the cable with shimanos own special sauce. It made the shifting worse, so I spent the next hour cleaning the grease out

The hanger was nearly straight, but I straightened it more. I have decent alignment tool. It never measures excatly the same twice., but it's less than a millimeter run out.

The b-scew has run gambit and really doesnt help at all with the Shimano. Currently I'm back at the little line that indicates nominal.

What it's doing right now, is indicative of a cable problem in my mind. If I turn the barrel adjuster out enough to shift to the next larger cog, it wont shift to the smaller cog and verse-visa.


There is a really dead spot, at about ninth gear, where I can single click up or down and the chain sits happily on that cog. Then with the next click, now two clicks up or down, the chain happily skips two cogs clickety split.

When I "click," the derailleur seems to move snappy quick. The chain just stays.

It is exactly the same way when I put the eagle shifter back on. I did this last night as a test becuase I thought maybe my new XT shifter was fecked up.

With the XT shifter, becuase of the multi shift capability, I can set it to shift to the smaller cogs cleanly, and then force solid down shifts, by over extending the lever a little past the "click." This is the best I've been able to achieve, and not good enough for me.

This morning, I plan on routing a new cable outside the frame, with super straight routing to test my theory that its all cable pull variation.

If im correct, I will like 12 speeds even less, if that's possible. I'm still messing with this only because I dont want to take apart a perfectly good bike to fix this one. I've ordered everything I need to convert to 11 speed and I am waiting on the shifter.

I've also spent so much money on 11 and 12 speed parts, that I'll have to wait a few weeks before I can order a new 10 speed rig.?.

I will know if its cable in a few hours at most.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

There is a really dead spot, at about ninth gear, where I can single click up or down and the chain sits happily on that cog. Then with the next click, now two clicks up or down, the chain happily skips two cogs clickety split.

When I "click," the derailleur seems to move snappy quick. The chain just stays.
.

Oh man, that’s really strange.
It’s as if that one particular cog doesn’t have up ramps and down ramps cut out of its teeth.

 

[DrStupid]

I've run a brand new standard shimano road bike cable outside the frame, just hanging there to see if the cable is the issue. It is not. It acts excatly to same with super low cable pull.

Maybe later I will try a micro spline cassette to see if it's the solution, but for right now I'm gonna go back to all sram and see if I can get in a ride.

Clearly the Shimano 12 speed doesnt like my sunrace cassette. It didnt really like the pg-1230 either, so no point in trying that one again.

One thing I have learned is the two shifters, the XT 12 speed, and the eagle GX 12 speed, appear to be completely swappable with no noticable change in mech behavior at all, I suppose that's something I've actually vetted.

You know, I've got two other bikes here I could ride and they work great. But, I'm so stupid stubborn, that I absolulty refuse to ride them until I fix this one. I've got some serious issues that need to be addressed... after I fix this fecking bike. Lol

 

[DrStupid]

I have swapped it all back to 100% sram and its excatly the same. The only items not changed are the hub, frame, and motor?.

All I can figure is I have somehow, that is undetectable to me, messed up the hub.

 

[Trail-Niels]

I have swapped it all back to 100% sram and its excatly the same. The only items not changed are the hub, frame, and motor?.

All I can figure is I have somehow, that is undetectable to me, messed up the hub.

Seems odd...
Are you running an NX cassette?
Have you tightened the cassette so it doesn't "wobble"?
Have you set the B-tension adjustment using the SRAM Eagle Chaingap Adjustment Gage SRAM Eagle Chaingap Adjustment Gage
Also check Rear Derailleur Adjustment and Rear Derailleur — Advanced Troubleshooting for guidance

 

[DrStupid]

Yes pg-1230.
Yes all tight.
Yes B-screw, though my own experience (probably screwed up) has taught me to get the b-scew as close as possible without fouling the cassette when shifting to biggest cogs. I have adjusted the b-screw every way imaginable and while it does have a profound effect on shifting with the sram... it doesn't effect this particular problem with the stubborn gears.

I am really gonna have close look at the hub next. All this really weird stuff started about a month ago. At the time I didnt think much of it, but the cassette came loose. I tightened it good amount and it was still loose! I'm thinking now, that when it came loose, the small cog shifted to the wrong spline and maybe I buggered it up when I reefed on it. At that time I had never worked on a cassette before.

It never shifted right after that, so I took it the dealer and they installed a new pg-1230. Later I found that pg-1230 had a bend spider, and it still wouldn't shift. That's when I decided sram was the trouble, and started swapping to shimano, only disappoint follows.

I now think the hub is all that's left in common.

Today its rideable, but still wants to stay in ninth and tenth gears, and requires a double shift to get it to move.

 

[Trail-Niels]

I'd take a closer look at the hub if I was you. It could be that the bearings in the hub are toast.
Once I had a hub come completely apart, with ballbearings dripping out, and a damaged rear axel shaft, the cassette was virtually floating. At another time the shifting startet to be incorrect, and when taking a closer look at the hub it turned out it was worn out (after +8000 km), so a new hub and a readjustment of the derailleur solved it.

 

[DrStupid]

I've looked at the hub and freewheel and it looks great.

I dont know what I'd be looking for in particular, but it is unremarkable in every regard.

It spins true and free on the axle, the free hub clicks one way and locks in the other.

Everything is concentric and the splines are free from deformation. There are small witness marks where the loose cogs have been driving the free hub, but nothing bad.

Put it all back together with an 11 speed cassette, shifter and it still crap? I've got an 11 speed mech (xt) coming in the morning. I will try again just one more time , and if I cant do a simple setup and ride... I'm taking it back to the dealer and trading it all in.

Im a broken man.

 

[The Flying Dutchman]

I'll pray for you @MrTeno2U

I went from 12spd to 11spd and it was a huge improvement. hope your experience is the same

One thing I'd also check is your cable length and that it's not too short. I remember a tie when I cut mine too short and had ghost shifts when I turned hard to the right

 

[tedturbine]

How to set up SRAM Eagle - MBR

are you setting the b tension whilst sat on the bike ? approx 4 min into that video ?

 

[Rusty]

Two words ...............


TEN SPEED

 

[DrStupid]

Two words ...............


TEN SPEED

Parts are on the way. But I will need an 118 link 10 speed chain. Lol. Nothing is easy. This bike, with the long Chainstays, using an 11-46 10 speed cassette, and a 34 tooth chain ring, needs at least 118 links.

Does anybody know who makes the most unbreakable derailleur that can span an 11-46 cassette and be compatible with shimano 10 speed shifters?

So far, every derailleur I have used is made from cheese.

 

[Rusty]

So far, every derailleur I have used is made from cheese.

Try not changing while climbing cliffs in Turbo mode then. I am a fat bastard and constantly forget to pause while shifting and the only ones I have destroyed was when an idle wheel fell off on my 4th or 5th ride & they replaced that under warranty due to shit pre-sale checking.

 

[DrStupid]

Lol. I actually never break them while shifting. Its the creek beds, deer trails and crashing... well falling over.