Shimano needs more power.

[Zero]

As much as i like this bike i have to say that i really think this motor is lacking.

I dont buy this 300% assistance as anything more than marketing. Cadence range is far to small and power tails off very fast under hard pedalling.

I have mine in the US 20mph mode and clearly at 18.5 it drops off. I think this is because it cannot handle the load and Shimano programmed it this way.

The EU 15.4mph limit hides this problem as the speed limit makes you think its powering up to the limit but in actual fact you can hit that limit after a few hard pedals. The EU limit sucks balls and totally ruins the fun in ebikes. Its very broken and the extra few mph on the US setting makes a massive difference.

We were doing jumps on a short run up and a 2018 kenevo which is a tank of a bike was jumping far higher than my Decoy. Just shows you how badly under powered this motor is. That motor isnt even the brose model which is even more powerful.

70nm isnt enough, 300% assistance i believe is only achieved under limited circumstances and the motor is noisey.

For an aggressive style rider this motor is simply not enough. I live in a very flat area and half my trails are flat and i want to boost my speed to jump off kickers and small trail jumps which makes the whole ride more fun.

I also have a feeling the Bosch motor is both more powerful but also more usable power which results in a better ride but i need to spend more time on a bike to see for sure. There is no competition with the Brose or some of the newer motors with far more assistance and torque.

This motor for sure feels end of life and Shimanos next one will likely address these issues but my biggest concern for this bike was this motor and i have to say to some degree i think i should have chosen the Bosch. As much as id want the power of Brose the reliability is shockingly bad and id want to see what the 2021 models perform like.

Between the Motor and the pedal strikes of this bike i think there much that will be improved in coming models.

 

[R120]

I couldn't actually disagree with your more - I pretty much only ride mine in the lowest trail setting, and its more than powerful enough. I dont think what motor you have makes a jot of difference to how well a bike jumps, technique is everything, and going faster doesn't equal more air time.

Having spent a lot of time on all the motors I just cant see its a factor, the weight and weight placement on a bike is far more noticeable IMO.

The reason the power drops off before the cut out is to provide a smooth transition into the unassisted peddling - how effective this is is a whole other topic, but thats the reason they do it.

EMTB's need a recalibration of your riding style to get the best out of them, and this can take time - I used to get a fair few pedal strikes when I first got mine, 2 years later I hardly ever do.

 

[Zero]

I ride mine boost all the time. i have trail in 200% assist.

This isnt about top speed its about acceleration and sustained acceleration. These motors seem to be ok at doing 13mph up hill at a consistent speed but find it hard to keep up with my legs when im pushing up hill. I have also seen other ebikes seemingly pushing faster with less effort.

The jumping we swapped bikes so rider skill has nothing to do with it. We could clear the gap on the Kenevo and stuggled on the YT with the motor feeling noticeably less powerful. The Simano also has a tiny sweet spot in cadence which i think has more effect than the peak power.

 

[Punisher]

I didnt notice big difference on trail between Bosch, Shimano and Brose.
US limitation give a better feeling near the motor limitation speed and enough acceleration to chain jumps easily in bikepark. Anyway, in my near flat bikepark, I am able to go at 40km/h with my muscle only on my Decoy. Enough to chain some jumps.
Geometry, weight and skill matter, not really the motor.

 

[Moe Ped]

I have the Shimano and a Scott with the new gen 4, both my Son and I both prefer the Shimano motor for power delivery.

However i never use it in boost, mostly eco and trail.

 

[Zero]

Well in trail the power is lower in all motors from what i understand. So maybe this is a leveller between models.

With motors with 90-120nm and 410% assistance there is a major difference between a shimano and a some of those higher powered motors. Especially if they can deliver their power over a larger cadence which means you dont need to change gear as often.

 

[R120]

I cant see the bike being the issue - the YT is one of the best bikes for that kind of riding out there, personally I would try ridding it in trail on high, rather than boost - all boost is good for is winching you up hills, it is IMO useless for any proper riding as the power delivery is too on and off and linear.

I would say though that I have always thought the YT would be better with a 27.5 up front, especially if you are into free riding, but thats just personal preference, as it would make the front end easier to get up and more nimble.

The only motor out of the major players that has a noticeable instant acceleration over the other is the Yamaha from what I have tried.

 

[Zero]

I cant see the bike being the issue - the YT is one of the best bikes for that kind of riding out there, personally I would try ridding it in trail on high, rather than boost - all boost is good for is winching you up hills, it is IMO useless for any proper riding as the power delivery is too on and off and linear.

I would say though that I have always thought the YT would be better with a 27.5 up front, especially if you are into free riding, but thats just personal preference, as it would make the front end easier to get up and more nimble.

The only motor out of the major players that has a noticeable instant acceleration over the other is the Yamaha from what I have tried.

I don't think the bike is the problem. I still have a great time riding it. I'm not sure 160mm is enough for me coming off a 180mm analogue bike but that is a different subject.

I'll try trail on 300% see if that makes a difference. I'm not unhappy with the way it delivers power but I do notice a huge drop off in power the harder you pedal which for me i dont understand because I'd expect it to be consistent up till the speed limit.

I think I'm either hitting the torque limit or the cadence is too high and the assistance is dropping off. Either way I feel I should expect the same power all the way to 20mph up hill but you dont you start to struggle at 13mph up hill. It could also be gearing where one is to high but the next gear is too low. If you understand what I'm trying to say..

 

[R120]

Yup, maybe try a 36t front chainring - its also hard to factor in why you are finding what you are finding without factoring in tyres and pressures suspension set up etc etc - still I would try doing the same in trail, you might be surprised.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I got to say @Zero I agree with you, after using the Bosch and Brose extensively and getting back to the Shimano its noticable lacking in power. Steep climbs it lags behind.

I get what @R120 is saying too about modes / choosing what works for you - but all told, in full power mode, big climbs, its still no where near as punchy throughout the cadence range like the Bosch / Brose is right now.

 

[Zero]

I got to say @Zero I agree with you, after using the Bosch and Brose extensively and getting back to the Shimano its noticable lacking in power. Steep climbs it lags behind.

I get what @R120 is saying too about modes / choosing what works for you - but all told, in full power mode, big climbs, its still no where near as punchy throughout the cadence range like the Bosch / Brose is right now.

Well I'm glad that I'm not alone in this theory.

I don't have enough time on other bikes to speak confidently about other motors in comparison but the numbers tell a story which I'm guessing some people wont notice. But an aggressive rider will find the limit of the shimano.

Rob is there any news on the 2021 kenevo changes? This might have to be my next bike

 

[R120]

I actually think its the software of the modes and how this effects power delivery that is most noticeable - of the stock modes across the motors I think EMTB mode on the Bosch is the most thought out and and responsive out the box, and provides the most extra oomph/response when you drop the hammer, however I also think that being used to your bike and getting it set up how you want it plays a big part.

The Shimano is definitely less forgiving of poor gear choice than the latest motors, which ties in with the lower power.

Of course a lot of this is user dependent, as we all ride our bikes differently, for me right now I am preferring the lighter weight at the expense of power route, and the thing I still notice most between my Vitus and other full fat EMTB's with similar travel and intentions, is that it weighs sub 22kg, vs 24/25kg for most of the competitors, and as such it always feels more nimble and responsive than other bikes, and its this I pick up on rather than the motor power.

So the long and short of my point of view is that I always notice the weight of other bikes far more, potentially because the extra 3kg of a Kenevo for example over my bike means that any extra power is pretty much negated - interesting really as this might well be what skews my point of view that the motors are much of a muchness.

 

[steve_sordy]

@R120 You would love riding my Focus Jam2 then it only weighs 20.4kg. It too has a Shimano E8000. I rarely use Boost, but I have Trail set to maximum. I have not noticed a lack of power. What I have noticed is that at low cadence, not even Boost will get me up the hill. The answer is of course higher cadence to keep the motor in its high power zone.

 

[geehaw]

All depends on how you look at e-bikes. One would assume more power also results in more power consumption so lower range or the need for heavier larger batteries. If power or speef is you only concern, why not buy a motor bike and be done with it. My reason for an e bike is simply to provide a level of uphill assistance so I can ride longer and enjoy the downhills. I get on some fairly steep uphill sections and boost on the Shimano motor is more than enough to get me up the hill without being fatigued at the top. I get the advantage of a broader cadence range a higher power motor could offer and while that would be nice, not really a necessity especially with a 12 speed cassette.

 

[R120]

@R120 You would love riding my Focus Jam2 then it only weighs 20.4kg. It too has a Shimano E8000. I rarely use Boost, but I have Trail set to maximum. I have not noticed a lack of power. What I have noticed is that at low cadence, not even Boost will get me up the hill. The answer is of course higher cadence to keep the motor in its high power zone.

I am a big fan of the Jam, I originally had one on order when the first came out, but went with the Vitus as it was more suited to what I wanted.

 

[Zero]

All depends on how you look at e-bikes. One would assume more power also results in more power consumption so lower range or the need for heavier larger batteries. If power or speef is you only concern, why not buy a motor bike and be done with it. My reason for an e bike is simply to provide a level of uphill assistance so I can ride longer and enjoy the downhills. I get on some fairly steep uphill sections and boost on the Shimano motor is more than enough to get me up the hill without being fatigued at the top. I get the advantage of a broader cadence range a higher power motor could offer and while that would be nice, not really a necessity especially with a 12 speed cassette.

You cant ride a motorbike anywhere these days. Ebikes are sweet spot right now.

 

[B1rdie]

I am satisfyed with the 70nm and think its more than I need to climb anything.
Shimano software is for people who come from a biking background while other cater better to ex moto riders.
It looks like the climbs that people complain are more of steep than technical, I mean if you do not need to time the strokes and do a few backpedal and sharp steerring meanwhile you climb, than maybe more power would be helpfull, but on the real tech thing the shimano shines.
The 300 % thing means I can use less strengh from my legs to get the 70nm at the cranks, leaving more peace of mind to manage balance, grip, weight distribution and all those aspects so dear to mtb, besides just racing and jumping.

 

[Barty_NorthVan]

As much as i like this bike i have to say that i really think this motor is lacking.

I dont buy this 300% assistance as anything more than marketing. Cadence range is far to small and power tails off very fast under hard pedalling.

I have mine in the US 20mph mode and clearly at 18.5 it drops off. I think this is because it cannot handle the load and Shimano programmed it this way.

The EU 15.4mph limit hides this problem as the speed limit makes you think its powering up to the limit but in actual fact you can hit that limit after a few hard pedals. The EU limit sucks balls and totally ruins the fun in ebikes. Its very broken and the extra few mph on the US setting makes a massive difference.

We were doing jumps on a short run up and a 2018 kenevo which is a tank of a bike was jumping far higher than my Decoy. Just shows you how badly under powered this motor is. That motor isnt even the brose model which is even more powerful.

70nm isnt enough, 300% assistance i believe is only achieved under limited circumstances and the motor is noisey.

For an aggressive style rider this motor is simply not enough. I live in a very flat area and half my trails are flat and i want to boost my speed to jump off kickers and small trail jumps which makes the whole ride more fun.

I also have a feeling the Bosch motor is both more powerful but also more usable power which results in a better ride but i need to spend more time on a bike to see for sure. There is no competition with the Brose or some of the newer motors with far more assistance and torque.

This motor for sure feels end of life and Shimanos next one will likely address these issues but my biggest concern for this bike was this motor and i have to say to some degree i think i should have chosen the Bosch. As much as id want the power of Brose the reliability is shockingly bad and id want to see what the 2021 models perform like.

Between the Motor and the pedal strikes of this bike i think there much that will be improved in coming models.

I've only ridden the Shimano and Rocky Powerplay motors but I found the less torque on the Shimano actually makes for a smoother ride experience. Shifting and cadence seem to be the key for keeping/getting up to speed.
As for jumping: Flip the Chip to the high setting and increase your rebound in your fork and shock and pump the bike into the jump.
(My boys can go half the speed on jump trails and jump 2x as high due to technique and bike setup and maybe some skill . But I have my bike set up damp to suck up bumps and stay low like a DH Bike )

Give the bike set-up changes a try!
Cheers
Barty

 

[lamomie]

As much as i like this bike i have to say that i really think this motor is lacking.

I dont buy this 300% assistance as anything more than marketing. Cadence range is far to small and power tails off very fast under hard pedalling.

I have mine in the US 20mph mode and clearly at 18.5 it drops off. I think this is because it cannot handle the load and Shimano programmed it this way.

The EU 15.4mph limit hides this problem as the speed limit makes you think its powering up to the limit but in actual fact you can hit that limit after a few hard pedals. The EU limit sucks balls and totally ruins the fun in ebikes. Its very broken and the extra few mph on the US setting makes a massive difference.

We were doing jumps on a short run up and a 2018 kenevo which is a tank of a bike was jumping far higher than my Decoy. Just shows you how badly under powered this motor is. That motor isnt even the brose model which is even more powerful.

70nm isnt enough, 300% assistance i believe is only achieved under limited circumstances and the motor is noisey.

For an aggressive style rider this motor is simply not enough. I live in a very flat area and half my trails are flat and i want to boost my speed to jump off kickers and small trail jumps which makes the whole ride more fun.

I also have a feeling the Bosch motor is both more powerful but also more usable power which results in a better ride but i need to spend more time on a bike to see for sure. There is no competition with the Brose or some of the newer motors with far more assistance and torque.

This motor for sure feels end of life and Shimanos next one will likely address these issues but my biggest concern for this bike was this motor and i have to say to some degree i think i should have chosen the Bosch. As much as id want the power of Brose the reliability is shockingly bad and id want to see what the 2021 models perform like.

Between the Motor and the pedal strikes of this bike i think there much that will be improved in coming models.

have you correctly adjusted the wheel circumference, mine arrived with a circumference of 29 "when you have to adjust to 27.5" and that could explain the speed shift you have

 

[Zero]

have you correctly adjusted the wheel circumference, mine arrived with a circumference of 29 "when you have to adjust to 27.5" and that could explain the speed shift you have

Can you tell me what you rear tyre number is in the app?

 

[lamomie]

Can you tell me what you rear tyre number is in the app?

27,5 " or 2180 mm circumference .

 

[rb.]

Something to try:

 

[Intermtb]

I notice on my E7000 motor, as Zero pointed out, when doing hard pedaling with higher gear, the power somehow could not keep up, but if I was spinning more using lower gear, it gives me consistent power.
Sometimes when I want to jump a gap with very short run way, I have to do hard pedaling, and that's when I feel the power is a bit off.
So the trick is get on a longer run way and more spinning than hard mashing on the crank to get me up to speed.
Overall, I love my E7000 motor, seems more efficient and natural, compared to my gen 3 bosch motor.

 

[Zero]

I notice on my E7000 motor, as Zero pointed out, when doing hard pedaling with higher gear, the power somehow could not keep up, but if I was spinning more using lower gear, it gives me consistent power.
Sometimes when I want to jump a gap with very short run way, I have to do hard pedaling, and that's when I feel the power is a bit off.
So the trick is get on a longer run way and more spinning than hard mashing on the crank to get me up to speed.
Overall, I love my E7000 motor, seems more efficient and natural, compared to my gen 3 bosch motor.

This is what I am finding.

I think this motor was designed for consistent pedaling and not powering up in short bursts which is crazy since electric motors are supposed to be high torque burst power by design.

Trails are not designed for consistent pedaling because some areas you just cant or it isnt a good idea. Then when you want to power up somewhere the motor just fades off well before the speed limit and not exactly at high cadence either. I think it's the torque curve hitting a limit or maybe needs more charge than allowed from the battery

 

[Punisher]

Of course a lot of this is user dependent, as we all ride our bikes differently, for me right now I am preferring the lighter weight at the expense of power route,

Fully agree

Famous motorbike quote: without mastership, power is nothing

Just find the best motor for your skill. But dont expect power will hide all your defects.

I personally prefer Shimano because it is the best at high cadence (90-100 rpm). And I am enough strong to manage exceptional low cadence situations when Shimano assistance is lower. Some riders prefer low cadence and Yamaha, Brose... will be better for them.

About assistance % on big effort, I am around 300W for some decade of seconds. Sometime higher.
300W excess 250W of all brand motor limitations, so 100% or 300% will assist at the same level...

 

[Zero]

Well the brose is 90nm, 560w peak and 410% kicks in at lower cadence and holds power higher in cadence.

That surely has to make a huge difference to how powerful this motor feels in the circumstances i describe.

Well ill find out for myself soon enough as i just got notified that my Kenevo Expert is shipping.

 

[Gemini2k]

Considering that it is rare if not Completely unheard of for trail features to be built requiring the peak power of an ebike to hit, it seems odd that the power of the ebike would be limiting you in any way shape or form.

I guess if you’re trying to approach your ride more as a mini-moto ride with minimal pedal power that might be the case. But me and my buddies are over here boosting huge Whistler style gaps, drops and step ups on our decoys, levos and keneevos and all just just euphoric with how awesome and easy it is.

 

[R120]

Well the brose is 90nm, 560w peak and 410% kicks in at lower cadence and holds power higher in cadence.

That surely has to make a huge difference to how powerful this motor feels in the circumstances i describe.

Well ill find out for myself soon enough as i just got notified that my Kenevo Expert is shipping.

So you have ordered a new bike?

I get what you are saying but I just can't see how thats going to make a difference.

I have been riding for 30 years, DH, free ride, many years living in the alps you name it I have done it - best thing I did a few years ago was a skills course, I asked the instructor to strip down my riding, especially body position and pumping into corners/corners jumps and start again from the basics, as I figured I had picked up as many bad habits as good down the years, and the progression I made from that one session was brilliant, main thing it reminded me was not to just charge into jumps, but to use the right technique going into and off them, which is far more important than the speed you hit them at.

The £150 quid I spent on a mornings skills training did more for my riding than any amount I have ever spent on fancy bikes or parts.

Not saying don't follow your gut/heart and get a new bike, but I cant recommend enough decent skills courses/sessions for improving your riding. The biggest improvement you can make on any bike, isn't the bike itself, but the person riding it.

 

[Zero]

So you have ordered a new bike?

I get what you are saying but I just can't see how thats going to make a difference.

I have been riding for 30 years, DH, free ride, many years living in the alps you name it I have done it - best thing I did a few years ago was a skills course, I asked the instructor to strip down my riding, especially body position and pumping into corners/corners jumps and start again from the basics, as I figured I had picked up as many bad habits as good down the years, and the progression I made from that one session was brilliant, main thing it reminded me was not to just charge into jumps, but to use the right technique going into and off them, which is far more important than the speed you hit them at.

The £150 quid I spent on a mornings skills training did more for my riding than any amount I have ever spent on fancy bikes or parts.

Not saying don't follow your gut/heart and get a new bike, but I cant recommend enough decent skills courses/sessions for improving your riding. The biggest improvement you can make on any bike, isn't the bike itself, but the person riding it.

Its not about jumping. I was using that as an example of the difference i noticed between the motors.

I had to make a decision on the bike. Im used to riding 180mm travel bikes and i want to do more bike parks when they reopen. My usual bike supplier said to me that Spec said the 2021 Kenevo is the same bike and the next delivery to the UK is November. Hes down to his last 4 Kenevos and they would all be gone this week.

Someone has offered me most of the money i paid for the Decoy so its either change now for minimal cost or do it in the future and it could be far more expensive. The 2022 Kenevo could still be the same bike given their 3 year frame design policy so there isnt much point in waiting.

Its rare you get to change bikes for a few hundred pound loss.

 

[Nobblynik]

I think if you have been riding mountain bikes for many years the Decoy and Shimano is a great combo, but I like to maintain a decent level of fitness so mix up my ebike rides with my other mtb's, I also have all my settings set to low and find there is plenty there when needed, but lots of climbing and downhill trails mixed with some long XC rides, and not dissing anyone but ebikes do attract riders that want to power through everything without effort.
Just my thoughts.