Shimano needs more power.

[Zero]

I think if you have been riding mountain bikes for many years the Decoy and Shimano is a great combo, but I like to maintain a decent level of fitness so mix up my ebike rides with my other mtb's, I also have all my settings set to low and find there is plenty there when needed, but lots of climbing and downhill trails mixed with some long XC rides, and not dissing anyone but ebikes do attract riders that want to power through everything without effort.
Just my thoughts.

Im really not bothered about fitness. Im fit enough for what i need to do. Pulling around a 25kg bike though is like weight training in its self and even on an ebike i feel like i have had a good enough workout.

Im not saying 300% isnt enough im saying that i dont think it gives you that when under pull pedal power. I do notice many ebikes going around trails at a mono speed which is not how i want to ride

 

[RickBullotta]

As much as i like this bike i have to say that i really think this motor is lacking.

I dont buy this 300% assistance as anything more than marketing. Cadence range is far to small and power tails off very fast under hard pedalling.

I have mine in the US 20mph mode and clearly at 18.5 it drops off. I think this is because it cannot handle the load and Shimano programmed it this way.

The EU 15.4mph limit hides this problem as the speed limit makes you think its powering up to the limit but in actual fact you can hit that limit after a few hard pedals. The EU limit sucks balls and totally ruins the fun in ebikes. Its very broken and the extra few mph on the US setting makes a massive difference.

We were doing jumps on a short run up and a 2018 kenevo which is a tank of a bike was jumping far higher than my Decoy. Just shows you how badly under powered this motor is. That motor isnt even the brose model which is even more powerful.

70nm isnt enough, 300% assistance i believe is only achieved under limited circumstances and the motor is noisey.

For an aggressive style rider this motor is simply not enough. I live in a very flat area and half my trails are flat and i want to boost my speed to jump off kickers and small trail jumps which makes the whole ride more fun.

I also have a feeling the Bosch motor is both more powerful but also more usable power which results in a better ride but i need to spend more time on a bike to see for sure. There is no competition with the Brose or some of the newer motors with far more assistance and torque.

This motor for sure feels end of life and Shimanos next one will likely address these issues but my biggest concern for this bike was this motor and i have to say to some degree i think i should have chosen the Bosch. As much as id want the power of Brose the reliability is shockingly bad and id want to see what the 2021 models perform like.

Between the Motor and the pedal strikes of this bike i think there much that will be improved in coming models.

The 18.5 MPH cutoff BUGS THE SH*T OUT OF ME, and cost me a win in an eMTB race, since the Levos stay on the power the whole time (and most of them were hacked with wheel circumference to go to about 22-23 MPH).

It's 100% a software issue though.

The bike has PLENTY of power to attack jumps and other moves, when used in Trail mode. I used STunlocker to maximize the top end when in Trail mode but to still maintain the linearity and control that Trail mode brings.

 

[Zero]

The 18.5 MPH cutoff BUGS THE SH*T OUT OF ME, and cost me a win in an eMTB race, since the Levos stay on the power the whole time (and most of them were hacked with wheel circumference to go to about 22-23 MPH).

It's 100% a software issue though.

The bike has PLENTY of power to attack jumps and other moves, when used in Trail mode. I used STunlocker to maximize the top end when in Trail mode but to still maintain the linearity and control that Trail mode brings.

Looking at some charts someone has put together you can see the Steps motor drop off significantly. This isnt about speed i think its about peak power, cadence and torque. The Bosch and the Brose just have more of it all and over a wider range.

 

[Gary]

If you think you need a more powerful motor than the E8000 to jump higher... sorry to break it to you, but the problem is YOU not the motor

As a rider who can spin silly high cadence I do find it unfortunate the Steps motor power/cadence curve tapers off so early. and can't be altered... but I also get why it can't. Opening up the assist power/cadence curve to the user would lead to far more folk messing it up in the quest for more power/speed etc. than it would help out. it seems very few Emtb riders can actually hold very high cadences. going by what i've read on here in the past couple of years anyway.

 

[RickBullotta]

Looking at some charts someone has put together you can see the Steps motor drop off significantly. This isnt about speed i think its about peak power, cadence and torque. The Bosch and the Brose just have more of it all and over a wider range.

Trust me, it's software though. Easily fixable if Shimano chose to do so. Shimano's rate of updates to its firmware is horrific.

 

[Gary]

The 18.5 MPH cutoff BUGS THE SH*T OUT OF ME, and cost me a win in an eMTB race, since the Levos stay on the power the whole time (and most of them were hacked with wheel circumference to go to about 22-23 MPH).

So you're saying you were cheated out of a WIN in a cheater bike race by a bunch of cheaters?

 

[Zero]

If you think you need a more powerful motor than the E8000 to jump higher... sorry to break it to you, but the problem is YOU not the motor

As a rider who can spin silly high cadence I do find it unfortunate the Steps motor power/cadence curve tapers off so early. and can't be altered... but I also get why it can't. Opening up the assist power/cadence curve to the user would lead to far more folk messing it up in the quest for more power/speed etc. than it would help out. it seems very few Emtb riders can actually hold very high cadences. going by what i've read on here in the past couple of years anyway.

I said when riding the bikes back to back the Kenevo jumped further with same effort and it was also heavier.

Its not about jumping higher. But i do want to maximise the limited space on the trail between features to get the most out of the jumps and drops. I also like charging up single track and find the lack of top end assist to be disappointing.

 

[Gary]

Derestrict it then.

and stop moaning

 

[Gary]

Or just ride a normal mtb, there's not a single jump that could be done on a kenevo that couldn't be done on a normal (non motorised) mtb

 

[RickBullotta]

So you're saying you were cheated out of a WIN in a cheater bike race by a bunch of cheaters?

LOL. Great observation Gary!

I haven't raced since. I now just RIDE! In fact, I'm gonna go ride shortly...

Cheers.

 

[Winryn]

I’ve no issues with the Shimano motor in my jam 2. I’ve set it to USA as the 15mph limit is too low but 20mph is perfectly fine. I used to find the cut off between 18-20 mph a bit abrupt in boost mode but now in eco I notice after many miles of riding it starts to reduce support at 18ish until 20 so it falls off as smoothly as possible. I’m a road bike rider so pretty fit and I’ve found as the novelty has worn off I’ve gone from boost mode, to trail mode, to eco mode and now a cut down eco mode and still find that perfect. I’m at 30nm and 40% assist and I still feel like I’m riding in quick sand by comparison when I get on my analogue hard tail. I don’t believe it’s a power issue you talk about as I’ve seen loads of vids of people messing with wheel circumferences and having the bikes running at 30mph plus

 

[Zero]

Derestrict it then.

and stop moaning

Its 20mph limit. This problem starts at 11mph. Its not a speed limit issue.

The motor just doesnt have the power when you push it.

 

[Gary]

Dude.. It's not hard to pedal a 50lb Steps Ebike to 20mph on the flat with the motor switched off.
The issue isn't the motor.

I'd put money on your bike having slow rolling soft compound tyres.

 

[luna87824]

I would be very happy with the existing motor if it didn't wine louder than my ex girlfriend......and she was loud!!

 

[Gemini2k]

Wow, lots to unpack here, weird post.

I have mine in the US 20mph mode and clearly at 18.5 it drops off. I think this is because it cannot handle the load and Shimano programmed it this way.

What? That doesn't make any sense, load isn't speed dependent in mountain biking...like at all. People are putting way more sustained load sprinting up long fireroad climbs than your 5 second sprints into jump lines.

We were doing jumps on a short run up and a 2018 kenevo which is a tank of a bike was jumping far higher than my Decoy. Just shows you how badly under powered this motor is. That motor isnt even the brose model which is even more powerful.

First of all "Jumping higher" is a really weird metric, I think everyone ever generally uses distance if anything, but whatever. Also, the power of the motor doesn't really correlate to how "high" you can jump. I don't think I've ever even heard of a jump line that's built for e-bikes. Therefore, if a jump line can be cleared with an acoustic bike, it can be cleared EASILY with an "under powered" ebike. If you're struggling to clear jumps in boost mode then...look inwards I guess?

Between the Motor and the pedal strikes of this bike i think there much that will be improved in coming models.

The BB height is a deliberate choice, and it's in the normal range for DH-oriented 165mm travel bikes. I wouldn't expect them to "fix" your pedal strike issue in upcoming models. ?‍

I also like charging up single track and find the lack of top end assist to be disappointing.

It sounds like you wanted a 60hp YZ450f but bought a 1/3hp e-bike instead.

 

[Zero]

Bingo. This isn't a motor power issue. I don't think I've ever even heard of a jump line that's built for e-bikes. Therefore, if a jump line can be cleared with an acoustic bike, it can be cleared EASILY with an "under powered" ebike. If you're struggling to clear jumps in boost mode then...look inwards I guess?

There is no bingo. You are both completely on the wrong track. There is no jump line. There is no acoustic bike.

The issue is peak power or lack thereof on the shimano motor. The power is not linear due to the limits placed on the motor. As soon as you hit the peak power the assistance flatlines.

The harder I pedal the motor should be 3x my power but as soon as you hit the wattage limit the assistance flatlines. This is noticable when pedaling up hill. Flat less so.

 

[Rusty]

I never thought my e8000 lacking in power. I used to use Eco on most all trails with Trail mode used for climbs and Turbo only used if I hit a blind corner and found a sharp climb immediately after (that is usually lazy or bad trail reading on my part).
Have always wondered when I read head to head comparisons why they always use a longish steep climb and use times up that as their main comparison point. FFS, mostly we are talking about what I consider Trail Bikes - IE, bikes we ride on MTB trails. If you are going to evaluate and compare then do it on loops that combine all sorts of terrain.
I have now owned in the last 18 months a Shimano e8000, a Brose (Levo) and a G4 Bosch. Being injured since before I received the Bosch I have only had perfunctory rides so far and really have just been using the Trail mode as I have no leg strength. The last time I rode it I swapped with a guy riding an e8000 and while it felt different I did not think it felt lacking - then again I wasn't just doing big climbs.
An interesting point is that through all of my old favorite tracks I was faster with the e8000 in Trail than I was in Turbo and with the Brose in all 3 modes. I believe this mostly due to not over-riding the trails as one is apt to do when running Turbo - causing over-braking .... requiring more acceleration.

 

[Gary]

The harder I pedal the motor should be 3x my power but as soon as you hit the wattage limit the assistance flatlines. This is noticable when pedaling up hill. Flat less so.

No it shouldn't.
My peak (sprint) power measured on a watbike is around 1400w
do you really think a Shimano motor should be able to output a further 2800w assistance if I put out that sort of effort?
ie. more power than the worlds best track sprinters?
it's an assistance, not an engine

The issue is peak power or lack thereof on the shimano motor. The power is not linear due to the limits placed on the motor. As soon as you hit the peak power the assistance flatlines.

No. The issue is STILL the rider.

What tyres (incl compounds and pressures) are you running?
and do you even realise how many watts you're losing by running certain compounds and casings?
What do you weigh? and do you realise the effect rider weight has on wattage output (motor and rider)? ie. a heavier rider has to sustai a far higher wattage to climb at the same speed as a lighter rider
How fit are you? ie. what sort of wattage are you capable of? (peak and FTP)

Im not saying 300% isnt enough im saying that i dont think it gives you that when under pull pedal power.

Seems to me you simply do not understand what is meant by 300%

clue: it's not 300% of what the rider puts in.

Stop looking at charts you don't seem to understand. Just ride your bike and try to enjoy it.

 

[Gary]

BTW if you're a decent sprinter a 25lb normal mtb accelerates from standing start to 20mph faster than a 25kg Emtb that's fully derestricted to 32mph
the motors in modern Emtbs are great for allowing you to ride for less effort but they're no substitute for a real bike.

If you really are struggling with mtb jumps on the E8000 it's not a more powerful motor you need, it's more experience, skill and possibly fitness

 

[HORSPWR]

Its 20mph limit. This problem starts at 11mph. Its not a speed limit issue.

The motor just doesnt have the power when you push it.

My Shimano motor goes full noise right up to cut off at 25kph, it doesn't start to taper off early like yours does.

 

[TheBikePilot]

I've ridden almost all the motors at some point and they all have their plusses and minus'.

The Shimano is a great system and as you say it isn't quite the kick in the arse you get from the others, it feels more like a standard motor on a diet but the power delivery is very natural feeling. You just need to push more on the steep climbs, so that's more about fitness. There is however nothing I can critise it for other than it's just not quite as punchy as I'd like being a bit lazy.

Manufacturer's claims of assistance over cadence ranges are all a little bit lacking in precise detail.

The Decoy does have a low BB, I rode one this week and had a few pedal strikes but that was simply due to the fact I was used to the Levo and adjusted to it after one trail. This improves it's cornering though. Reducing pedal strikes is about rider skill rather than the BB being too low.

As for the Kenevo jumping further? I don't think so, It could be anything like fork set up on the Kenevo or confirmation bias. I would say if you like a soft ride you've got the Decoy set up for comfort which will not make it very poppy for jumping.

You enjoy the Kenevo's travel as you like a soft supple ride, but you mentioned you like to pop off jumps and trail features but the Kenevo won't be as good as the Decoy for this. Increased travel comes at a cost of 'playfullness'. A Kenevo is a jumping weapon that's for sure. The Kenevo is more bike than most will need for trail riding but if you're into BikeParks I'd say the Kenevo is your weapon of choice and the increased battery Wattage will give you more laps.

I've ridden the Kenevo briefly and it felt like it took a lot of the skill and feedback from riding trails away, don't get me wrong still fun but you could switch off and just blast down the hill but the Decoy you have to piece together your descent. You really have to manhandle a Kenevo.

I think the Decoy is one of the best bikes out there for what I personally enjoy. It's a do-anything bike. I tried the 29er and found the travel perfect, I wouldn't change a thing. But that's me

E8000 best motor? No. Very bloody good? Yes.

 

[Zero]

No it shouldn't.
My peak (sprint) power measured on a watbike is around 1400w
do you really think a Shimano motor should be able to output a further 2800w assistance if I put out that sort of effort?
ie. more power than the worlds best track sprinters?
it's an assistance, not an engine

No. The issue is STILL the rider.

What tyres (incl compounds and pressures) are you running?
and do you even realise how many watts you're losing by running certain compounds and casings?
What do you weigh? and do you realise the effect rider weight has on wattage output (motor and rider)? ie. a heavier rider has to sustai a far higher wattage to climb at the same speed as a lighter rider
How fit are you? ie. what sort of wattage are you capable of? (peak and FTP)

Seems to me you simply do not understand what is meant by 300%

clue: it's not 300% of what the rider puts in.

Stop looking at charts you don't seem to understand. Just ride your bike and try to enjoy it.

The motor factually has less peak wattage power, less Torque and less assistance. Rob then comes along who then tells you the same as i do..So your response is to blame rider skill, tires, and suspension.

What part of we BOTH rode the bikes back to back over the same jump. The Kenevo even had a coil versus the DPX2. The Kenevo was 2019 so not even the brose and it was heavier than the Decoy.

I also perfectly understand what 300% is. I also know that as soon as you hit that power draw limit that 300% means nothing. The motor cant continue to support because its rated at 250w continuous.

My Kenevo just arrived so ill get it built and if i dont like it then ill send it back.

 

[Zero]

BTW if you're a decent sprinter a 25lb normal mtb accelerates from standing start to 20mph faster than a 25kg Emtb that's fully derestricted to 32mph
the motors in modern Emtbs are great for allowing you to ride for less effort but they're no substitute for a real bike.

If you really are struggling with mtb jumps on the E8000 it's not a more powerful motor you need, it's more experience, skill and possibly fitness

Who said anyone was struggling with jumping?

 

[Gary]

Remind us. What is it you're moaning about again then?

 

[Gary]

The motor factually has less peak wattage power, less Torque and less assistance. Rob then comes along who then tells you the same as i do..

TBF Rob simply commented that he'd noticed the Brose and Bosch motors having more power than the Shimano. That's not the same thing as agreeing with you that it doesn't have enough power for jumps, is it?

So your response is to blame rider skill, tires, and suspension.

and you still haven't answered my qustions on those, or your weight.

What part of we BOTH rode the bikes back to back over the same jump.

So why are you so quick to blame the motor instead of actually looking at set-up differences between the two bikes? like I said, the jumps will be do-able without a motor at all... as no one builds Emtb specific jumps.

The Kenevo even had a coil versus the DPX2. The Kenevo was 2019 so not even the brose and it was heavier than the Decoy.

You honestly think the Kenevo having a coil shock is relevantIt's not. it's not that simple.

I also perfectly understand what 300% is. I also know that as soon as you hit that power draw limit that 300% means nothing. The motor cant continue to support because its rated at 250w continuous.

You clearly don't understand it.
All class 2 pedalecs (Emtbs) are legally rated as 250w continuous.

My Kenevo just arrived so ill get it built and if i dont like it then ill send it back.

Fine.

Decoy's clearly can't be jumped

 

[Zero]

TBF Rob simply commented that he'd noticed the Brose and Bosch motors having more power than the Shimano. That's not the same thing as agreeing with you that it doesn't have enough power for jumps, is it?

and you still haven't answered my qustions on those, or your weight.


So why are you so quick to blame the motor instead of actually looking at set-up differences between the two bikes? like I said, the jumps will be do-able without a motor at all... as no one builds Emtb specific jumps.

You honestly think the Kenevo having a coil shock is relevantIt's not. it's not that simple.


You clearly don't understand it.
All class 2 pedalecs (Emtbs) are legally rated as 250w continuous.

Fine.

Decoy's clearly can't be jumped

WHERE DID ANYONE SAY YOU CANT JUMP A SHIMANO?

I said that the Kenevo was jumping further and higher. This was not a gravity jump. Posting videos of gravity jumps is not relevant. This was from a standing start on a flatish surface just using the power of a short run up from pedalling.

I have both bikes here right now and i can tell you there is a quite stark difference between the assistance and power of the Brose and the Shimano. Id go as far as the shimano is a whole level below the Brose.

Ill find out more the weekend when i give the kenevo a full trail run and see how different they feel on the uphill sections of the trail

 

[Beekeeper]

TBF Rob simply commented that he'd noticed the Brose and Bosch motors having more power than the Shimano. That's not the same thing as agreeing with you that it doesn't have enough power for jumps, is it?

and you still haven't answered my qustions on those, or your weight.


So why are you so quick to blame the motor instead of actually looking at set-up differences between the two bikes? like I said, the jumps will be do-able without a motor at all... as no one builds Emtb specific jumps.

You honestly think the Kenevo having a coil shock is relevantIt's not. it's not that simple.


You clearly don't understand it.
All class 2 pedalecs (Emtbs) are legally rated as 250w continuous.

Fine.

Decoy's clearly can't be jumped

nice video and a double summersault at the end ?

I’ll be trying that on my entry level hardtail tonight for sure ?

 

[Gary]

I said that the Kenevo was jumping further and higher. This was not a gravity jump. Posting videos of gravity jumps is not relevant. This was from a standing start on a flatish surface just using the power of a short run up from pedalling.

If all you want to do is hit kickers on the flat at 20mph. Get a proper bike or derestrict the YT

Please tell me the jump actually has a downslope landing

 

[Gary]

Why won't you answer the questions I asked about you and your bike?

 

[Master_G]

i have a 1.3 brose in my Kenevo, misses has the e8000 in her vitus, she leaves me for dust uphill. even the e7000 is as capable as a brose, brose just seem more refined.