New Bosch Tour + Mode

[Zed]

@Zed , interesting figures. Your power input appears to indicate that you are (more or less) applying the same pressure to your pedals for both modes. That would also translate into a longer ride time, lower average speed and more remaining battery.

Do you have a power meter on your pedals/cranks? (Strava gives us lowly cheapskates only an "Estimated Average Power")

Yeah the Tour+ mode does result in a little more muscle load I think, and a few more calories burnt, but it's quite a lot less fun. I don't think it's worth the trade off, unless needing the increased range/ride time. I tend to push a certain amount on the bike and I actually have trouble varying that. Even if it's my intention to back off because I've been riding more, I struggle to. Was the same when I used to cycle commute to work on a road bike. I'd be dead by the end of the week as I just struggled to take it easier some days. I have a sort of default setting.

The power numbers are from the bike (Orbea Wild FS) - recorded with the Bosch app and exported to Strava. I do believe it's pretty accurate, and does seem to gel with what I saw on a Wahoo Kickr I had briefly before I decided it was too boring for me and sold it

 

[Zed]

Something I forgot when I typed that up yesterday, when I got the bike flashed for Tour+ the guy in the shop asked me if I was using lights on the bike. I'm not even sure there's a connector, but I said no, and then he said some of my battery was reserved for lights, and he'd give it me back. I didn't think to ask how much battery it was... but imagine you celebrate going up to 625wh and then have some partitioned off for non-existent lights

So if you have a Bosch gen 4 and there's options in the display/phone sw around lights, maybe you have that switched on too. And cheers to the guy who originally configured my bike like that. Still, they got the brake caliper mounting washers the wrong way round too, so should not be surprised

That would affect the battery usage comparison I made: Tour+ 52% remaining, eMtb 29% remaining- well, there was effectively a bit bigger battery when I did the Tour+ ride.

EDIT: hard to find anything from Bosch, but from looking around forums that reservation might have been 10%... so I might have gotten 62.5wh back. If so, that's a more meaningful upgrade to me than getting Tour+ was

EDIT EDIT: well, reading more, I think that the reserved battery still shows in the % remaining figure. The motor just goes into limp home mode sooner. So that means it wouldn't have affected the Tour+ 52% remaining, eMtb 29% remaining comparison, but it does mean I was (I think) missing the ability to use the last 10% properly!

 

[Zed]

All right I'm going to fess up, I've been using Tour+ a lot more, despite concluding eMtb mode was way better.

Why? Because I'm trying to ride a lot more (frequency & duration) and with Tour+ it's more conducive to me going less hard and keeping my heart rate averaging in the 140s, and then of course having battery to ride longer. It also means I go out with a half shell and can forgo the knee pads, because I'm just not going mental. More comfortable for those "getting a ride in" rides. For me those rides are all about losing weight, and better for that because I can spend more time doing it.

So maybe Tour+ for fitness & trail rides, eMtb for full face mode?

In short, yeah Tour+ is growing on me. Much better than the old Tour.

 

[sunstoner]

I just wish Tour+ was as well as Tour.

Although I suppose Bosch have rectified that somewhat with their new system. Its just an arse it wont find its way onto my 'old' 2021 bike.

Good though that its growing on you @Zed

 

[Zed]

I just wish Tour+ was as well as Tour.

Although I suppose Bosch have rectified that somewhat with their new system. Its just an arse it wont find its way onto my 'old' 2021 bike.

Good though that its growing on you @Zed

Now that I'm using Tour+ more, I think I see the need for something in between ECO and Tour+ as well. Notably, in Tour+ I can not bother shifting down so very slow cadence then put pressure on the pedals, and have the bike do a LOT of work for me, a lot for a lower assist mode anyway. Speaks to the torque output of the Bosch motor I think. Experimenting I think shifting down and keeping cadence up makes it "feel" like it's doing less of the work for me (whether it actually is or not I don't know). Standing up and grinding it out at the lower cadence might be good too thinking about it.

But yeah. I agree on the need for customization. I shouldn't have to get the fancy giant display I really don't want to get customizable modes (or a new bike!). Here's hoping it comes to my Kiox.

 

[Zed]

In line with my new weight loss strategy I'm trying, I like to call it: "Just ride all the f!*king time". This is pretty much all my bike can give me in Tour+ (Wild FS, 625wh), riding pretty much all of the two sets of local trails I very intentionally live near. I got back home with 4% remaining. The Bosch did not seem to switch to ECO for the last 10% like I thought it would, it seemed to just keep giving me Tour+ all the way home.

 

[The Hodge]

Now that I'm using Tour+ more, I think I see the need for something in between ECO and Tour+ as well

Yeah ..its called Tour...then by using a digit on your left hand for approx 1 second you can change to emtb mode and have the benefit of everything from Tour up to Turbo ... or should the need arise ..change down to Eco ..?

 

[Zed]

Yeah ..its called Tour...then by using a digit on your left hand for approx 1 second you can change to emtb mode and have the benefit of everything from Tour up to Turbo ... or should the need arise ..change down to Eco ..?

It's very highly likely to remain in eMtb mode though

Maybe if there was an option to ditch Boost and just have ECO -> Tour -> Tour+ -> eMtb, that'd work for me. Actually ECO could go pretty much for me. I'd rather just ride an analog bike.

 

[The Hodge]

I'm not knocking yours or anyone else's findings ..I havent tried tour+...and don't really want to..?
Tour ( for me) is perfect and I just don't see the hardship in taking a second out to press a button to change the level of assist either + or -..
Emtb is only used on the very steepest of climbs and Turbo might as well be obsolete ..as a function in its own right..( way too much of a battery gobbler)

 

[Rahr85]

still works for me. i like having the information from the kiox to show me i'm a bit too inconsistent with cadence/power output (the big spikes are coasting so that's fine). just under 20 miles for 26% battery usage. Tour would be wasting some power for sure and eco would have been a struggle up some of the hills so it's nice to just have a mode i can leave it in and just ride.

 

[Doomanic]

IMO Tour+ has made EMTB obsolete. I used to live in EMTB but Tour+ is now my go to setting, saving Turbo for the last slog of the day for that last sweet descent.
I was sceptical at first, but I am finding Tour+ to be more economical than a mix of Tour and EMTB.
I hardly ever use Eco, my riding group don’t ride that way, but I did do one killer climb using it yesterday just to see if I could. I was blowing out my arse at the top but I made it. Never again. ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Another one who hasn't tried it.

Quite like the sound of Tour+ mode though. More or less gives you what you need when you need it - though obviously everyones requirements will be different. Shame there isn't a power button somewhere else, so you could unplug the clunky buttons and nokia and just leave it in "Just ride your bike" mode (Tour+) and get on with it.

 

[Zed]

IMO Tour+ has made EMTB obsolete
...
I was sceptical at first, but I am finding Tour+ to be more economical than a mix of Tour and EMTB.

I'm leaning the same way a bit myself. With the exception of when going hard for segment times etc i.e. "Full face mode". Tour+ is a great general use mode. I want a set and forget, natural feeling mode, and it does that. I do wish I could tune it to demand a little more from the rider, but it's not a big deal, and I might not even like it. Today I did 3hr 20 in Tour+ on trail on one battery yeah a little more would be nice but when it's basically like my e8000 was in trail (probably better?) that's a pretty good showing.

The issue with Tour (for me) was that it wasn't dynamic. I much prefer modes that automatically support more on climbs and less on flats. Seems really weird to not use a dynamic mode when motor has sweet, accurate sensors and the processing power to do it so well. I feel like it's what I paid for

 

[GrahamPaul]

IMO Tour+ has made EMTB obsolete.

I thought that until I did 6km at 10% average uphill on a mountain track. I might just about have managed it (in my dreams!) in Tour+ if it had been consistent, but the ramps got me. There is still a place for EMTB...

 

[Doomanic]

but the ramps got me

Ramps? in the trail? Tour+ is Eco to Turbo, EMTB is Tour to Turbo. How is EMTB better in that instance?

 

[GrahamPaul]

Ramps? in the trail? Tour+ is Eco to Turbo, EMTB is Tour to Turbo. How is EMTB better in that instance?

Ramps, as in the bit that suddenly goes from 10% to 30% for 50m or so. What do you call those bits? (I think it's a roadie term).

EMTB is better for those because I find that I'm pushing at my maximum Watts to get turbo support in Tour+. I'm pushing nowhere near as hard for full turbo support in EMTB.

Also, EMTB's bottom support level is Tour . The bottom support level Tour+ is ECO. So those bits where the ramps average out with something at 3-5% are a bit of R&R with EMTB mode, whereas I can't get my breath back in Tour+ ?

 

[Doomanic]

Ramps, as in the bit that suddenly goes from 10% to 30% for 50m or so. What do you call those bits?

Turbo sections...

 

[stiv674]

Seeing as my next bike is likely to have a Bosch motor, I've been reading threads like this for research etc...

It appears a lot of Bosch riders like a set and forget mode, with EMTB being that for most, whereas on my E8000 I'm used to regularly changing modes depending on terrain, fitness level etc, I don't want to feel like the bike is doing most of the work. I guess nobody actually uses eco or turbo modes much?

To those that have used both, how dynamic are the set and forget modes compared to trail on the E8000?

 

[Zimmerframe]

To those that have used both, how dynamic are the set and forget modes compared to trail on the E8000?

When I had the E8000 I found as time went on I ended up using tour more and more, especially when they improved things with a firmware update at one point and could get similar ish range to mode swapping.

With the Brose, I change modes a lot. Whilst the modes are semi dynamic (the more you put in, the more you get out) I find I still change a lot - mainly as I want to go fast, but at the same time I want to optimise range/battery and the way I have my modes set, you really need to change down a mode when the goings easier rather than let the motor do it all.

With the Bosch ... It depends on the ride .. for something stupid, I'll change modes to eek things out. In this case, it was eco as much as possible, EMTB when I felt I needed it and then Turbo on the last hill home as I was sha55ed. The Bosch in Eco can really give some pretty amazing results.

Unless I'm trying to make it hard for myself or know I'll need more range, then I'll use EMTB. It works really well, similar to Trail on an E8000, though the base power/assistance is higher (might catch you out when first setting off), but the software seems very intuitive at keeping it as low as necessary, whilst never feeling lacking - so you get excellent range. The range prediction on the Purion display is also accurate. 1km left means 1km left - unless you suddenly go up something very very steep. As usual range will depend on steepness/speed/wet or dry/type of ground/terrain and so on. But as a rough guide, normally a good chunk more than a Shimano in Tour and probably whilst going faster. If you put it in EMTB and always ride as fast as you can - you'll be absolutely shagged and your legs will be fecked - so you can certainly cover the fitness side - but cover more distance, quicker. The Bosch gently takes you over the assistance limit too, so for longer rides you can "Ride the Wave" where it's still just assisting you at the cut out, but hardly drawing any power - you can get pretty good range doing this and I end up trying to do this as much as possible if I'm going for a long one - that works on all modes (not tried it in Turbo though).

Tour+ would be excellent and probably much more comparable to Shimano Trail as the power starts at eco levels rather than tour levels (think double eco). Default Shimano Eco is probably higher than Bosch Eco, I remember I turned mine down quite a bit.

 

[stiv674]

When I had the E8000 I found as time went on I ended up using tour more and more, especially when they improved things with a firmware update at one point and could get similar ish range to mode swapping.

With the Brose, I change modes a lot. Whilst the modes are semi dynamic (the more you put in, the more you get out) I find I still change a lot - mainly as I want to go fast, but at the same time I want to optimise range/battery and the way I have my modes set, you really need to change down a mode when the goings easier rather than let the motor do it all.

With the Bosch ... It depends on the ride .. for something stupid, I'll change modes to eek things out. In this case, it was eco as much as possible, EMTB when I felt I needed it and then Turbo on the last hill home as I was sha55ed. The Bosch in Eco can really give some pretty amazing results.

View attachment 72581

Unless I'm trying to make it hard for myself or know I'll need more range, then I'll use EMTB. It works really well, similar to Trail on an E8000, though the base power/assistance is higher (might catch you out when first setting off), but the software seems very intuitive at keeping it as low as necessary, whilst never feeling lacking - so you get excellent range. The range prediction on the Purion display is also accurate. 1km left means 1km left - unless you suddenly go up something very very steep. As usual range will depend on steepness/speed/wet or dry/type of ground/terrain and so on. But as a rough guide, normally a good chunk more than a Shimano in Tour and probably whilst going faster. If you put it in EMTB and always ride as fast as you can - you'll be absolutely shagged and your legs will be fecked - so you can certainly cover the fitness side - but cover more distance, quicker. The Bosch gently takes you over the assistance limit too, so for longer rides you can "Ride the Wave" where it's still just assisting you at the cut out, but hardly drawing any power - you can get pretty good range doing this and I end up trying to do this as much as possible if I'm going for a long one - that works on all modes (not tried it in Turbo though).

Tour+ would be excellent and probably much more comparable to Shimano Trail as the power starts at eco levels rather than tour levels (think double eco). Default Shimano Eco is probably higher than Bosch Eco, I remember I turned mine down quite a bit.

To be honest I was hoping for a more detailed answer...

Do you think 50 miles and about 5000ft of ascent is possible from the 625wh battery? Assuming a good deal of rider effort. Bosch motor I mean.

So which do you prefer, Bosch, Shimano or Brose... ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Do you think 50 miles and about 5000ft of ascent is possible from the 625wh battery?

This was on the Focus (625). Slightly more distance than you asked about, but slightly less assent, in Eco mainly - but still had three bars left (the bars go faster like a shimano, but not quite as badly).

The terrain wasn't hard though. I think the worst I've had was 1700m and about 40km's, going hard on slippy and difficult trails - all in EMTB. I'm about 70kg's though, so that will make an impact if someone is more.

So which do you prefer, Bosch, Shimano or Brose... ?

The Shimano was OK, but it felt like it was going to break - just didn't feel right.

The Brose I loved in comparison (1.3). Quiet, smooth, more go go go .. but always had way less range than it should (95% of the time - every now and again it would work properly, absolutely fly and give good range)

That's in two years (though I don't record all my rides).

The Bosch though ... I really really like - for me, I think mainly because I get much more and much more consistent range and know I don't have to ride home flat all the time (as I did for 90%+ of rides on the Kenevo) so I'm just much more likely to grab it and go for a ride and explore more (wasn't really an option on the Kenevo).

I think the numbers speak for themselves - less than 4 months, and not every ride ..

 

[stiv674]

This was on the Focus (625). Slightly more distance than you asked about, but slightly less assent, in Eco mainly - but still had three bars left (the bars go faster like a shimano, but not quite as badly).

View attachment 72585

The terrain wasn't hard though. I think the worst I've had was 1700m and about 40km's, going hard on slippy and difficult trails - all in EMTB. I'm about 70kg's though, so that will make an impact if someone is more.



The Shimano was OK, but it felt like it was going to break - just didn't feel right.

The Brose I loved in comparison (1.3). Quiet, smooth, more go go go .. but always had way less range than it should (95% of the time - every now and again it would work properly, absolutely fly and give good range)

View attachment 72586

That's in two years (though I don't record all my rides).

The Bosch though ... I really really like - for me, I think mainly because I get much more and much more consistent range and know I don't have to ride home flat all the time (as I did for 90%+ of rides on the Kenevo) so I'm just much more likely to grab it and go for a ride and explore more (wasn't really an option on the Kenevo).

I think the numbers speak for themselves - less than 4 months, and not every ride ..

View attachment 72587

Thanks, B+ for effort this time

I like the gentle (or week?) power delivery of the Shimano in the lower modes and don't want something with too much urgency.

I tried a couple of Giant bikes initially and didn't like the power delivery of the Yamaha motor, hoping the Bosch isn't as bad...

Interesting you said that about the Brose 1.3 motor, my mate is on his second and it's not as good as his first one, not as quiet although it's still very quiet, just that his first one was virtually silent. He often complains about lack of support as well, not on every ride though... ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Thanks, B+ for effort this time

Yup, sorry about that .. didn't want to bore everyone anymore.

You should be ok with Eco, it's not urgent at all. Tour+ would probably suit you more than EMTB with it's wider spread and having to put more in for more out.

Sounds like he might have a dicky new motor - not sure how he'd prove it though if it works. The power thing generally seems to be some unidentified manufacturing fault which affects a tiny number of motors. Tell him just to pedal harder - higher cadence helps overcome it.

 

[stiv674]

Yup, sorry about that .. didn't want to bore everyone anymore.

You should be ok with Eco, it's not urgent at all. Tour+ would probably suit you more than EMTB with it's wider spread and having to put more in for more out.

Sounds like he might have a dicky new motor - not sure how he'd prove it though if it works. The power thing generally seems to be some unidentified manufacturing fault which affects a tiny number of motors. Tell him just to pedal harder - higher cadence helps overcome it.

Haha, not boring just informative ?

Should be fine then, just got to sell mine and find a new bike now, simple ?

Hmm, not sure he'd go for the pedalling harder bit ?

 

[Batch]

Hi All, first time poster so please be gentle!

I've had my Rail 5 for 5 months now and absolutely love the beast, such a fun machine to be on. Last week I had the update to Tour+ installed as thinking it would suit my style, like to grind most rides out in Eco, flick to Tour with the odd EMTB to get up the steeper stuff.
So far I can honestly say I have not noticed the delivery up to turbo on the steeper stuff and figure I must be doing something wrong? I am not a grinder and always work on a good cadence even when on my gravel bike, but I am just not getting that upper end of support from Tour+.

Conditions were not great on my last ride so not had a chance to test properly, so will have to get out on one of my regular loops to give it a proper try, but at the moment, for me, the jury is out!

Also, does the overrun of EMTB also apply to Tour+?

Cheers All

 

[Mteam]

just had my bike updated with tour+ , hoping it can help me get more range out of it on those massive days out , currently I can just about squeeze 5000-5500 feet of ascent over about 30-35 miles using a combination of eco,tour,emtb and turbo.

Hoping that tour+ is better at lowering the assistance than I am, hence enabling more range - we shall see this weekend - off to the tweed valley.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

So far I can honestly say I have not noticed the delivery up to turbo on the steeper stuff and figure I must be doing something wrong? I am not a grinder and always work on a good cadence even when on my gravel bike, but I am just not getting that upper end of support from Tour+.
Cheers All

I too am a spinner & I haven't noticed the turbo kick in on tour+ even though it is supposed to be there. From what I've read maybe we have to give it a bit of welly to get it to kick in. I just keep it in tour then shift up to emtb if I know a pinch climb is coming.

 

[Zed]

Also, does the overrun of EMTB also apply to Tour+?

No I think the overrun of eMtb is much lessened, and it also doesn't spike a chunk of power as soon as you pressure the pedals (hence it's not quite as good for getting started again on steep stuff). I personally miss that overrun/spike - I'd rather it was there. There's places in between corners I want to get a boost from a quick pedal stroke and I get a lot less in Tour+ vs eMtb. No big deal, but I'd rather it was there.

 

[Batch]

I too am a spinner & I haven't noticed the turbo kick in on tour+ even though it is supposed to be there. From what I've read maybe we have to give it a bit of welly to get it to kick in. I just keep it in tour then shift up to emtb if I know a pinch climb is coming.

Exactly what I have found Doug, which TBH is a little disappointing. Will give it a few more outings to give it a chance and see how it is working out on the battery range before I revert back to the standard Tour mode.

 

[Gyre]

I'm pretty sure Tour+ only cares about your torque and cadence (regardless of Bosch marketing fluff), but the amount of power you need to put down to access higher assist levels might be more than a lot of people can do.

The first time I really gave Tour+ the beans was like nonstop interval training. It wasn't pleasant at all but I did notice to my satisfaction that the trail was rolling by without feeling the grade so much. Not that it ever felt like Turbo though. That might be out of my reach.