Tekmotiv
Tekmotiv.co.uk
Gen 5 is lighter, much quieter, more battery choices. Available now on imminent Mondraker Crafty 2025 specs
New Bosch Gen 5 rumours
- Thread starter Northman57
- Start date
Do you have others info?
Robstyle
Active member
So they're going to bump the outputs right, why is that a few months away ie not at release?
Do they need to ?
The Gen4 performs pretty well at getting us up efficiently.
Aren't we more about going up to do down ??
If we're not that we're about distance and undulation.
It does both well.
No rattle, less noise, potentially a tiny bit more efficiency.
Aren't you entering the crossover phase of risking trashing trails and motocross style with more power ? Power is also relative, it still has to fit within the 250w rules.
Robstyle
Active member
I was moreso referring to torque.
I just wonder why not release it with more? Rather than wait.
I totally agree that 600w 85nm is enough BTW. It's a great direction they've gone with a refining the system and higher energy density batteries. There's no other motor system I'd rather have at the moment.
I just wonder why not release it with more? Rather than wait.
I totally agree that 600w 85nm is enough BTW. It's a great direction they've gone with a refining the system and higher energy density batteries. There's no other motor system I'd rather have at the moment.
Now that the gen 5 is out, it could be good to get a 3x3 rear hub in Rob rides, Sam, or Knut's hands for a test.
Apparently they have bluetooth shifting that synches up with the bosch smart system. Reasonable weight as well. Get it with a belt and it could be the quietest system with this new bosch cx
Apparently they have bluetooth shifting that synches up with the bosch smart system. Reasonable weight as well. Get it with a belt and it could be the quietest system with this new bosch cx
No the majority of the Bosch systems don't, and the fact you don't know what the issue is makes it even worse.
Adyzakydany
New Member
It’s only a matter of time before they bump the power, I don’t think we’ll be waiting like we did with the G4 when it jumped from 75 to 85NM, the new Brose is 95NM, DJI at 105NM.
I don’t get this. Why wouldn’t they have done this already, knowing the competition they’re facing? It sounds like a marketing carrot on a stick to me.
What competition exactly ? They are on so many brands and that's what counts in sales.
For competitors, DJI is on only one bike which doesn't sell everywhere and is unproven, Brose new motor is not released and not sure which brands if any will use it, Yamaha are irrelevant other than for Giant fans, ZF will be only on Raymon for 2025 and Shimano has an 7 year old screen with cables all around.
I think Bosch can relax for a while, maybe till the introduction of more mgu models.
Might be wrong but under the hood there are partnership involved.
If Bosch has already some partnership with brands for up to 2 years, well, there is not ultimate rush for them in between. They have the time to make it right.
It is not like you see a Bosch release on YT and brands start working from that point, some have already been working for months on that. Some brand have already gen5 supports but are waiting end of season and to empty their stock - which is still a big big issue nowadays.
Manufactured business is slow but with anticipation, this is why if a competitor pull out of his hat something new and you have nothing, the delay to be relevant can take times, especially if nothing is backward compatible. That does not mean what you had should not be delivered on the market, this would be dumb as also brand have built frame base on them.
On the other side, what is true to me, is that brands are betting on which motor is going to attract customers. What is bad for them these days is that people are selecting an emtb by first the motor/battery then the frame, this is very very different from mtb where you select the frame first.
If Bosch has already some partnership with brands for up to 2 years, well, there is not ultimate rush for them in between. They have the time to make it right.
It is not like you see a Bosch release on YT and brands start working from that point, some have already been working for months on that. Some brand have already gen5 supports but are waiting end of season and to empty their stock - which is still a big big issue nowadays.
Manufactured business is slow but with anticipation, this is why if a competitor pull out of his hat something new and you have nothing, the delay to be relevant can take times, especially if nothing is backward compatible. That does not mean what you had should not be delivered on the market, this would be dumb as also brand have built frame base on them.
On the other side, what is true to me, is that brands are betting on which motor is going to attract customers. What is bad for them these days is that people are selecting an emtb by first the motor/battery then the frame, this is very very different from mtb where you select the frame first.
JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite
This is the bottom line, the amount of bikes that have switched to Bosch motors in the last 18 months is huge. Everywhere I look new brands are jumping on Bosch (Pivot, Canyon, Norco, Commencal, Santa Cruz, etc)
Its getting pretty hard to find new bikes with a EP801 now days
Some nice internal shots of the Bosch new motor here. Not allowed to call it Gen5 apparently lol.
I do wonder how well that nylon gear will hold up. We have some nylon gears in the Bambu Lab 3d printers and regardless of how hard wearing we are told they are if you print carbon and other hard filaments they wear like hell in no time.
Interesting with the freewheel too.
I do wonder how well that nylon gear will hold up. We have some nylon gears in the Bambu Lab 3d printers and regardless of how hard wearing we are told they are if you print carbon and other hard filaments they wear like hell in no time.
Interesting with the freewheel too.
I was wondering about that too. It really depends on how much torque there is on that peculiar one, it is hard to know.
I have also the feeling from the look of it that the internal gear of the nylon one is also touching the big top gear.
My guess is that we could trust Bosch, this would be catastrophic if it would need replacement within a year.
I have also the feeling from the look of it that the internal gear of the nylon one is also touching the big top gear.
My guess is that we could trust Bosch, this would be catastrophic if it would need replacement within a year.
Using a "plastic" gear is not always a bad idea as it also acts as a sacrifice gear to prevent further damage however it becomes a wear point and a consumable as such.
Though what will go first between that and the bearing from water ingress remains to be seen lol.
Though what will go first between that and the bearing from water ingress remains to be seen lol.
When I look at it I found not so accurate info about it.
Nylon is pretty tough and durable but lack precision in transmission gear, not sure this would apply here. This is not something new we all have at home some of them on when we have small motor (like in toy, as I broke tons of them I really remember lol).
For water, it can be better but I did not think we would be able to get an IP64 or something like that ... then I remember of the old days I were on speedboat with you know the big helix in the water. I do not recall having anything to do about it but hey I was a kid surely I did not pay attention to my father servicing the motor.
Nylon is pretty tough and durable but lack precision in transmission gear, not sure this would apply here. This is not something new we all have at home some of them on when we have small motor (like in toy, as I broke tons of them I really remember lol).
For water, it can be better but I did not think we would be able to get an IP64 or something like that ... then I remember of the old days I were on speedboat with you know the big helix in the water. I do not recall having anything to do about it but hey I was a kid surely I did not pay attention to my father servicing the motor.
sethimus
Member
mahle (specialized sl 1.2) is already ip67
Wait till the DJI problems start. I have been using their drones for years and it's inevitable and I mean INEVITABLE there will be issues. I just hope they are not bad ones as they have had in the past. Mind they have had another £500 out of me today so that tells you something lol.Word on the street is that some major bike brands are already testing the new DJI Avinox motor and may switch to it in the future. I guess Bosch will have to step up their game and put out more power pretty quickly.
JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite
Yea, I'd say majority of brands will sit on the sidelines and see what reliability is like before jumping in.
Ark
Active member
I find when mountain biking my motor isn't the loudest thing around.
Lighter could also mean weaker, like they put what seems to be a nylon cog inside, I'm guessing the old one was metal.
Battery tech is more important than motor tech to me at this point in time.
Shame they don't concentrate on energy density for the perfectly fine motors they already have.
Atleast water proof them probably..
Bosch is no more behind on battery density than anyone else really. It's only the battery structure where gaines can really be made on weight and that's not nessesarly a good idea based on the issues others are having.
Basically every car, electric bike and drone all are in the same boat with regards to battery density and it's technology driven we have at this time. There is no magic wand here with this. You can cram in a little more wh with smaller lower C cells but you then givup how much peak power it can deliver and heat becomes a problem.
There is also then the cost to capacity ratio to fight. How much are you willing to pay for a bike and a battery. If it was another £500 would you pay that for 20% more capacity and weight.
Sadly no magic answer to battery capacity it's always a trade off.
This will not be always the case, we already have better solution, solid battery once they arrive to public, will totally change everything, lighter, smaller, efficient, safer etc.
What we lack today is the commercial part as they already exists and prove it works very well, somehow it is scheduled to be a thing for 2028 for EV cars, but no one really knows yet but there is arms race about it.
What we lack today is the commercial part as they already exists and prove it works very well, somehow it is scheduled to be a thing for 2028 for EV cars, but no one really knows yet but there is arms race about it.
What I can tell you having been heavily using Lipo and LI-ion batteries for the last 10 years is every year they say the the next "greatest" " revolutionary" battery tech is just a few years away, "its just around the corner " yet it never comes.
Battery technology has a slow fairly stable development path and great jumps just don't tend to happen.
I would love to be wrong
Battery technology has a slow fairly stable development path and great jumps just don't tend to happen.
I would love to be wrong
We have seen some progress in battery tech lately. Not long ago, the default 21700 cell was about 70g and 5Ah. These were used in the 360, 540 and 720 Wh batteries. Giant was the first (afaik) to launch versions of these batteries with slightly higher capacity using a 5.56 Ah cell. But the cells were also a tad bigger and heavier. These 22700 cells had the same chemistry, so no progress in energy density.
Last year, Bosch launched their 400 Wh battery, and the 600 & 800 battery packs this year. These use a different cell than Giant. Bosch use a 21700 cell of 5.56 Ah with about the same weight as the old 5 Ah cell. Meaning the Bosch batteries are using new battery chemistry.
When Sram launched their motor, we got a 10s3p battery with 630 Wh. It was the same cell config and ~same weight as the old 540 Wh batteries. These were the first of the 5.8 Ah cells, a more energy dense 21700 weighing about the same as the old 5 Ah cell. The 5.8 Ah cells aren't widely available yet, so big manufacturers such as Bosch aren't able to buy them in the quanta needed.
Here's what the different cells mean for battery capacity. The packs will have no or minimal changes in weight:
Cell config 10s2p
5.00 Ah cell: 360 Wh (Trek Fuel Ex-e and many other SL bikes)
5.56 Ah cell: 400 Wh (Bosch SX powered SL bikes)
5.80 Ah cell: 420 Wh (2025 Orbea Rise)
Cell config 10s3p
5.00 Ah cell: 540 Wh (YT Decoy, ++)
5.56 Ah cell: 600 Wh (Many 2025 Bosch powered bikes)
5.80 Ah cell: 630 Wh (Propain, Merida, ++)
Cell config 10s4p
5.00 Ah cell: 720 Wh (Merida LITE, ++)
5.56 Ah cell: 800 Wh (Many 2025 Bosch powered bikes)
5.80 Ah cell: 840 Wh (?? The upcomoing Levo, if it ever comes?)
Last year, Bosch launched their 400 Wh battery, and the 600 & 800 battery packs this year. These use a different cell than Giant. Bosch use a 21700 cell of 5.56 Ah with about the same weight as the old 5 Ah cell. Meaning the Bosch batteries are using new battery chemistry.
When Sram launched their motor, we got a 10s3p battery with 630 Wh. It was the same cell config and ~same weight as the old 540 Wh batteries. These were the first of the 5.8 Ah cells, a more energy dense 21700 weighing about the same as the old 5 Ah cell. The 5.8 Ah cells aren't widely available yet, so big manufacturers such as Bosch aren't able to buy them in the quanta needed.
Here's what the different cells mean for battery capacity. The packs will have no or minimal changes in weight:
Cell config 10s2p
5.00 Ah cell: 360 Wh (Trek Fuel Ex-e and many other SL bikes)
5.56 Ah cell: 400 Wh (Bosch SX powered SL bikes)
5.80 Ah cell: 420 Wh (2025 Orbea Rise)
Cell config 10s3p
5.00 Ah cell: 540 Wh (YT Decoy, ++)
5.56 Ah cell: 600 Wh (Many 2025 Bosch powered bikes)
5.80 Ah cell: 630 Wh (Propain, Merida, ++)
Cell config 10s4p
5.00 Ah cell: 720 Wh (Merida LITE, ++)
5.56 Ah cell: 800 Wh (Many 2025 Bosch powered bikes)
5.80 Ah cell: 840 Wh (?? The upcomoing Levo, if it ever comes?)
There has been talk about solid-state batteries for years, and I've lost interest a bit lately. Toyota declared they would solve SSB by the 2020 Tokyo Olympics. And as "luck" would have it, they even got an extra year to acheive their goal. And sure, come 2021, they had cars that could be driven using SSB. The only minor issue was they would handle like 20 charge cycles before the dendrites of lithium metal anodes grew so long they would internally short circuit the battery and catch fire. Which of course is unfortunate, especially for a battery that supposedly wouldn't cath fire.
But I have seen Quantum Scape claim they can make SSBs that will be great for the future. I couldn't see anything indicating they are ready to mass produce them.
In a recent article CATL says
CATL ups bet on all-solid-state batteries, begins sample validation, report says
CATL has recently entered the trial production stage of 20 Ah samples, meaning the battery solution is initially finalized and it is starting to enter the production technology exploration stage, according to local media.
cnevpost.com
Seems mass production isn't starting anythime soon. But it's interesting speculating in what the future holds. According to CATL, we can expect an energy density of 500 Wh/kg for the first generation. I don't know how they decide it's 40% up from current tech. If we look at the 5.8 Ah cell, it's more than a 60% increase.
Take the 1.8 kg Orbea Rise 420 Wh battery and increase capacity by 65%. That leaves us with a 690 Wh battery weighing 1.8 kg! Yes please, that would make me happy! For a while
From my understanding a big breakthrough has been this year with partnership settled including some governments. I have been following that particularly as I vested some money in some of these companies
Toyota is not really a good example as they did not really trust the full EV and keep themselves on hybrid, only recently they figure this out - you can definitely find articles mentioning they are lacking behind by not embracing full electric versus all new comers.
Yeah CATL is stating mass produce but they need clients for that too!
Like you and I said, it is not for tomorrow but some industry are going to benefit from it way before.
There is also the first prototype delivered few month ago (?), a little nuclear/radioactive button cell - totally safe, for up to 100 year!
Anyway I would like to see all of this soon but this will land on market where there is money first, and on mtb, the market is too small in comparison to EV or truck etc.
Toyota is not really a good example as they did not really trust the full EV and keep themselves on hybrid, only recently they figure this out - you can definitely find articles mentioning they are lacking behind by not embracing full electric versus all new comers.
Yeah CATL is stating mass produce but they need clients for that too!
Like you and I said, it is not for tomorrow but some industry are going to benefit from it way before.
There is also the first prototype delivered few month ago (?), a little nuclear/radioactive button cell - totally safe, for up to 100 year!
Anyway I would like to see all of this soon but this will land on market where there is money first, and on mtb, the market is too small in comparison to EV or truck etc.
Ark
Active member
Wasn't toyota supposed to have solid state batteries years ago
Has anyone seen any commentary around placement of a Gen5 CX in a Gen4 CX mount?
I took the below snip from a video on the Gen 5. It actually looks to be a gen4 motor with a pair of mounts to bolted on to suit the gen5 two-bolt profile?
Full video here. There's no comment on the mount though, just saw it in passing in the first 6 seconds.
Thoughts?
I took the below snip from a video on the Gen 5. It actually looks to be a gen4 motor with a pair of mounts to bolted on to suit the gen5 two-bolt profile?
Full video here. There's no comment on the mount though, just saw it in passing in the first 6 seconds.
Thoughts?
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