I’ve ridden 3600 miles on my 2021 Bosch CX performance line gen 4. It’s been chipped for the past year and I’ve had no battery or motor issues. The firmware is the latest for my model of the gen 4. I’m a very happy customer. My previous gen 3 got replaced under warranty at 2000 miles due to water ingress. I rode it through a flood, oops.
Need help deciding on a reliable motor.
- Thread starter crsb
- Start date
Botsch make crappy power tools. Shimano make fishing reels. Brose do auto power steering motors. Yamaha has been powering 2 wheels for a long time, my 2018 giant has 15000 kilometers on it no issues. Including dunking it.
Clean
Active member
Aren’t Yamaha known for combustion engines? Technology-wise, Power tools are closer to eBike Motors than a four stroke twin pot, surely?
And Pianos...
Yamaha invented the world’s first electrically power assisted bicycle (PAS) in 1993.
Ark
Active member
doesn't mean much, Bosch were making electric motors long before that
Also your wrong about that being the first electrically assisted bike.
1895 and 1897 say HI, although 1895 doesn't seem to have pedals, 1897 obviosly does.
Anyway it's not like electric motors are complicated, they have been around for over 100 years now and the designs don't really change much.
what separates Ebike motors are the mechanical internal parts.
Also Yamaha motors aren't known for reliability they let water in by design
They have a membrame that's supposed to let any moisture in the motor dry out but it works both ways
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RiderOnTheStorm
E*POWAH Master
Unless we are able to see reliability records, root cause analysis of motor issues, service history data from motor manufacturers across the ebike spectrum, by brand, by model, by FW version, it would be difficult to know what is the most reliable motor.
Anything else is speculation. Our subjective or personal interpretation. Then why not have a survey and ask forum members to vote on their most reliable motor?
It's known that some motors may be designed or constructed to last longer, to perform better, etc. You take a chance when you buy an e-bike as far as the motor is concerned.
How someone uses and takes care of their ebike motor and battery plays a critical role as well in the perceived reliability.
I personally have been using Bosch CX gen 4 engines for the past 2 years and have found them highly "reliable". My 2 cents..
Anything else is speculation. Our subjective or personal interpretation. Then why not have a survey and ask forum members to vote on their most reliable motor?
It's known that some motors may be designed or constructed to last longer, to perform better, etc. You take a chance when you buy an e-bike as far as the motor is concerned.
How someone uses and takes care of their ebike motor and battery plays a critical role as well in the perceived reliability.
I personally have been using Bosch CX gen 4 engines for the past 2 years and have found them highly "reliable". My 2 cents..
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We have all this data! We probably have the worlds most reliable and comprehensive records. Our records detail the failure of every motor type that we repair, going back 5 years, so far.
We log the bike manufacturer and model of bike the motor is fitted to, motor manufacturer, motor model, part number, serial number, cause of failure, mileage etc.
We also compare this knowledge with our partners worldwide. This is to compare failure types in dry countries, wet countries, countries that predominantly have a road bike market or a mountain bike market. Then we look at how many motors are sold by the manufacturers to give us an idea of how many motors they have in the market compared to how many we see on the operating table.
Oddly, people still don't listen to what we say
Wow, cool! I am a university professor and would be interested in doing research on this topic, i.e. a systematic analysis of your data. Are you interested? Please contact me anytime.We have all this data! We probably have the worlds most reliable and comprehensive records. Our records detail the failure of every motor type that we repair, going back 5 years, so far.
We log the bike manufacturer and model of bike the motor is fitted to, motor manufacturer, motor model, part number, serial number, cause of failure, mileage etc.
We also compare this knowledge with our partners worldwide. This is to compare failure types in dry countries, wet countries, countries that predominantly have a road bike market or a mountain bike market. Then we look at how many motors are sold by the manufacturers to give us an idea of how many motors they have in the market compared to how many we see on the operating table.
Oddly, people still don't listen to what we say
I'm interested! Would live to see a ranking of the motors' reliability, details on their serviceability and the main causes for the issues they experience.We have all this data! We probably have the worlds most reliable and comprehensive records. Our records detail the failure of every motor type that we repair, going back 5 years, so far.
We log the bike manufacturer and model of bike the motor is fitted to, motor manufacturer, motor model, part number, serial number, cause of failure, mileage etc.
We also compare this knowledge with our partners worldwide. This is to compare failure types in dry countries, wet countries, countries that predominantly have a road bike market or a mountain bike market. Then we look at how many motors are sold by the manufacturers to give us an idea of how many motors they have in the market compared to how many we see on the operating table.
Oddly, people still don't listen to what we say
Having factual information can be a really good help in choosing a motor system. (Though I know you advise to choose a bike on other characteristics than the motor, but if one intends to keep the bike more than a couple of years I'd contest that the whole ownership experience is important - including reliability and serviceability.)
RiderOnTheStorm
E*POWAH Master
That's very good to hear! Is this data publically available and accesible to e-bikers ? If so, how?
If this information was posted on this forum before, I may have missed it. My apologies.
Thank you for your offer, we may be able to do this after the summer.
You are right, it's always been my stance to not influence peoples thought processes when buying a bike. There many reasons for this, but other than buying with your heart and not your head, the main ones are below:
Regardless of what you hear... all eBike motors are not as bad as you think. If they were, we would be 10 times busier than we are now.
95% of all eBike motors are technically 'not fit for purpose' when used off-road and until the manufacturers start making dedicated off-road motors, this will not change. Bear in mind that to make a dedicated off road bike to please everyone it would need to be pressure washer proof, submersible, have no friction from all the seals to take away power and battery range, be strong enough to withstand pedal strikes and crashes, but weigh no more than a few grams and be totally silent!
As for the other 5%, we have never seen these unicorn motors, but I was just giving the industry the benefit of the doubt that it maybe out there somewhere!
At this time you must accept riding off-road in all conditions, any motor on the market is likely to fail at some point.
Currently, as an owner, you can only do your best to ride around the issues. Or continue to enjoy using your bike like a tractor and accept that one day you will be searching for our website
.I think that maybe the best and most important question to ask would be... Is this motor repairable!? Then at least when your motor is out of warranty, you can just get it fixed like any other part on your bike.
As it said in my post, this is data that we have painstakingly kept and gathered over the last 5 years of fixing motors. It's not publicly available yet and has never been posted anywhere. But we will speak with #h3rrm later in the year and see if we can put something together.
This ^^^
RiderOnTheStorm
E*POWAH Master
Thanks for all your insight @Bearing Man From your experience, which ebike motor (brand/model) would you say are Not Repairable, or near impossible to repair?
Shimano...
I knew I should not have written that statement when I wrote it! These questions sound so easy when you ask them, but I have struggled for two days to answer this so far!
This is also one question I am trying to get the media and motor manufacturers to ask me, or just speak with me, because this situation is getting worse, it would take a 30-minute talk to try and explain all these issues.
Unfortunately, putting all this into words would equate to a small book! The other issue with writing on a forum is whatever you say is there for all time and things change rapidly! What’s repairable today, mat not be repairable tomorrow and vice versa!
I will start by saying, all motors have their weak points when used off-road. Some are mechanical, some are electronic, and some are both. This is what makes answering this question so difficult. One mechanical failure on a particular make of motor may be repairable and the next electronic failure on the same motor may not.
I guess what was on my mind when I wrote this statement, was the growing trend for motor manufacturers to go out of their way to make motors un-repairable! For example, assembling them with parts that must be destroyed to remove them. And then not selling the part that must be destroyed! Or making a bearing a custom size for no particular reason, and then not selling that bearing! Electronics and software are starting to become linked to batteries and controllers with only the manufacturer being able to re-program old or new units (Like the Bosch "Smart" system. Bike manufacturers are instructing the motor manufacturers to use their own proprietary software or CANbus language. They are all doing this with little or no back-up for the customer and less chance of people like me being able to help you.
I think my current answer to this question would be... Buy an old Bosch Gen2, Brose or Yamaha (not Giant). At least these motors are currently between 90% and 100% repairable.
Unless people campaign for the manufacturers to support companies like ours, the future is not currently looking good.
This is also one question I am trying to get the media and motor manufacturers to ask me, or just speak with me, because this situation is getting worse, it would take a 30-minute talk to try and explain all these issues.
Unfortunately, putting all this into words would equate to a small book! The other issue with writing on a forum is whatever you say is there for all time and things change rapidly! What’s repairable today, mat not be repairable tomorrow and vice versa!
I will start by saying, all motors have their weak points when used off-road. Some are mechanical, some are electronic, and some are both. This is what makes answering this question so difficult. One mechanical failure on a particular make of motor may be repairable and the next electronic failure on the same motor may not.
I guess what was on my mind when I wrote this statement, was the growing trend for motor manufacturers to go out of their way to make motors un-repairable! For example, assembling them with parts that must be destroyed to remove them. And then not selling the part that must be destroyed! Or making a bearing a custom size for no particular reason, and then not selling that bearing! Electronics and software are starting to become linked to batteries and controllers with only the manufacturer being able to re-program old or new units (Like the Bosch "Smart" system. Bike manufacturers are instructing the motor manufacturers to use their own proprietary software or CANbus language. They are all doing this with little or no back-up for the customer and less chance of people like me being able to help you.
I think my current answer to this question would be... Buy an old Bosch Gen2, Brose or Yamaha (not Giant). At least these motors are currently between 90% and 100% repairable.
Unless people campaign for the manufacturers to support companies like ours, the future is not currently looking good.
yorkshire89
E*POWAH Master
@Bearing Man thanks for writing that. The info you have is really valuable to us as the end users and I think with the help of @Rob Rides EMTB (maybe in the form of a YT interview?) could put some weight on motor manufacturers to improve their processes and maintainability.
Ebikes shouldn't be seen as white goods that are only useful within the warranty period.
Ebikes shouldn't be seen as white goods that are only useful within the warranty period.
Oh wow. I didn't expect that. I guess I just thought that the lack of serviceability was an accident, rather than being done on purpose.
The question is how the customer goes about affecting change?
A company like Apple engineering in planned obsolescence is bad enough, but many people intend to change their phones every 2 years anyway and it's a less expensive item. Plus they're less prone to failure in the first place. Having part of an off-road vehicle non-repairable is just insane, especially when it's such an important part and especially considering that it makes the whole bike scrap if it cannot be repaired/replaced.
I guess we need to compaign more for right to repair. It does suck that they're purposely making the components less serviceable though. If they were more reliable/robust in the first place it wouldn't be as much of an issue, either.
Really they should just treat them like consumable/wear items though and have their dealer network service the motors annually and make money that way.
Out of interest though, for those of us who don't want to buy a several year old bike just for the motor - what would you say is the best system in terms of reliability/serviceability from the current crop?
My bike is just being sent out from the manufacturer now, so it won't influence my purchase. (Just make sure you say Bosch to put my mind at ease!
)
The question is how the customer goes about affecting change?
A company like Apple engineering in planned obsolescence is bad enough, but many people intend to change their phones every 2 years anyway and it's a less expensive item. Plus they're less prone to failure in the first place. Having part of an off-road vehicle non-repairable is just insane, especially when it's such an important part and especially considering that it makes the whole bike scrap if it cannot be repaired/replaced.
I guess we need to compaign more for right to repair. It does suck that they're purposely making the components less serviceable though. If they were more reliable/robust in the first place it wouldn't be as much of an issue, either.
Really they should just treat them like consumable/wear items though and have their dealer network service the motors annually and make money that way.
Out of interest though, for those of us who don't want to buy a several year old bike just for the motor - what would you say is the best system in terms of reliability/serviceability from the current crop?
My bike is just being sent out from the manufacturer now, so it won't influence my purchase. (Just make sure you say Bosch to put my mind at ease!
)This. If one brand actually bucked the trend and did business in a consumer-friendly manner, then I suspect they'd quickly gain a following and the other brands might actually see sense. But I suspect the customer loyalty earned by doing things in a fair manner would endure.
I don't think it's much to expect a bike to be serviceable. It wouldn't even be so bad if whenever they brought out a new system they made it fully backwards compatible.
I think people wouldn't be too concerned if the motor broke after 5000 Miles if they could then just buy the latest version and swap it in, gaining a working motor and a slight upgrade for their money.
As I said, this is not a question I can answer! It's not because I don't want to answer it, it's because it is far more complicated than it sounds and ever changing. I will do a video or talk on this sometime this year. I feel that both the motor and battery issues are extremely important to anyone that rides these bikes on or off-road and it needs addressing.
Bafang have done this, you can buy all the internal parts for your Bafang motor and they are slowly gaining traction in the mainstream market.
You're right, it is important and does need addressing.
You should, get reps in from each manufacturer and interview them! Put the videos on YouTube!
Now they just need to do a retrofit kit to allow to to fit them into Bosch/Shimano/etc bikes!
Yeah, we looked into doing this because a lot of older bikes, the parts and motors are becoming obsolete. Unfortunately, you would also have to change the battery, battery holder, switch and looms, etc. Its just not economically viable.
Crazy. But I guess they make it all proprietary to keep you buying their stuff.
I think that the lack of economical viability is the reason why motors are not built to be repairable, and safety is the reason for batteries not being serviceable either. Bear in mind that an ebike motor is worth less than 10% of the value of the “vehicle” and that messing with a 500 + battery may have tragic results.
Tubby G
❤️🔥 Hot Stuff ❤️🔥
Call me naive, but I’d expect a motor to do far more than 5000 miles before it needs replacing. Perhaps a full service yes, but not replacing.
5000 miles isn’t much, around 15 months of riding, based on 3 rides per week of 25 miles
My partners bike has done over 4000 miles and it’s only just over a year old and we still consider it new
RiderOnTheStorm
E*POWAH Master
Thanks for all your feedback @Bearing Man. Much appreciated!
What is your experience with the Bosch CX Gen 4 (BDU4xx, non-Smart) in terms of serviceability? Are we also looking at a high repairability percentage similar to Gen 2 motors?
The reason I bring this up is that a few eMTB manufacturers are still selling bike models with Bosch Gen 4 units (non smart) in their 2023 lines. This may be of interest to anyone looking for a Bosch powered bike that don't want to jump on the Smart-system bandwagon.
From what bearing man says, that's not the case. The manufacturers are making motors less and less serviceable by purposely putting parts in them that break when you take the motor apart and not selling those parts so you can't replace them. The motors used to be more serviceable back when bikes were cheaper...
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