Need help deciding on a reliable motor.

HugoStiglitz

New Member
Nov 8, 2023
18
13
United States
Yeah Bosch make a ton of items with motors - washing machines, tumble driers, robot mowers, etc. Admittedly they come across a wide range of price points so the quality will vary.

TBH, for me the reliability is important, but I think the bit that really bugs me and is possibly even more important is the serviceability. The current thought process on that seems to be "when the motor breaks after only a few hundred or thousand miles, just take the whole bike and throw it away, then spend another £5k+ on a new one.... Which will also break in short order and need to be thrown away."

It's obsurd. I'm surprised there's not a consumer law mandating that these things MUST be serviceable with relative ease. I know the EU are looking at creating a "right to repair" law, but it can't come soon enough. I just hope it's sufficiently strict and that charging a customer £600+ for a brand new motor doesn't cut it. It wouldn't take them much to allow us to service the bearings or the gears and replace the electronics.

In an ideal world, motors would all be made to an ISO fitment, so if you didn't like the Shimano motor on your bike, you could sell it and swap in a Bosch... For example.

Then at least you could choose your favourite bike and run it from your favourite motor, or swap out a knackered motor and upgrade to the latest model.

Would be far more consumer friendly and promote greater competition between manufacturers. They'd soon be clambering over each other to make the most reliable, most serviceable motor.
TOTALLY agree with you on all of this. I'm sick of this throw away culture that Capitalism has created and fed us. We're spending outrageous amounts of money, for something we don't even need. And then they have the audacity to make parts that can't be service or repaired! Can't make parts that last a long time and that are durable! It's evil and wrong.
 

HugoStiglitz

New Member
Nov 8, 2023
18
13
United States
This ^^^

And the parts to do so must be freely available.
"It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority...."

Just noticed your signature.... 👊 That quote is still as relevant now as it was in his time. Something that the majority of the world needs to realize and understand. One of the greatest human minds in history :(

“They dispute not in order to find or even to seek Truth, but for victory, and to appear the more learned and strenuous upholders of a contrary opinion. Such persons should be avoided by all who have not a good breastplate of patience.”
 

borysgo2

Active member
Feb 1, 2023
121
196
Ireland
Bafang have the PCB on the top of the motor :D
Electronic section is nicely separated from the mechanical side (kind of splash guard), so if there is a bit of the water inside in theory it shouldn't destroy PCB right away.

m820 motor.jpg m820 motor2.jpg
 

RJUK

Active member
Sep 29, 2021
561
294
UK
I also hear that Bafang is more serviceable? If the Germans, Japanese etc want to keep their market then they need to wise up fast. If Bafang are just as powerful and are actually serviceable then bikes will be all.over these like a rash. They just need to partner with more bike manufacturers.

The same is happening in the auto industry. The Germans need to wise-up, because the Chinese are coming.
 

rzr

Active member
Sep 26, 2022
359
228
bcn
It's obsurd. I'm surprised there's not a consumer law mandating that these things MUST be serviceable with relative ease. I know the EU are looking at creating a "right to repair" law, but it can't come soon enough. I just hope it's sufficiently strict and that charging a customer £600+ for a brand new motor doesn't cut it. It wouldn't take them much to allow us to service the bearings or the gears and replace the electronics.
that's true - "right to repair", but I read somewhere that Shimano for example, wants exceptions from that.
 

Bearing Man

Ebike Motor Centre
Patreon
Sep 29, 2018
969
2,320
UK
TOTALLY agree with you on all of this. I'm sick of this throw away culture that Capitalism has created and fed us. We're spending outrageous amounts of money, for something we don't even need. And then they have the audacity to make parts that can't be service or repaired! Can't make parts that last a long time and that are durable! It's evil and wrong.
Hang in there guys. Please don't forget that we can service and repair many of these motors worldwide. We have the parts, tools and knowledge... plus we are working very hard to find upgrades and sealing solutions. With service partners now in 36 countries so far (these are not all shown on our website because it takes nearly a year to get them up to speed). We also promote 'self repair' by offering parts, "how to" videos and information.

In the motor industry, there is a slight breeze of change following the sustainability laws recently passed in Europe, we are currently in strong talks with some of the manufacturers and one of the largest bike builders in the world while lobbying others to help reparability and reliability become a real thing! # www.ebikemotorcentre.com
 

irie

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Subscriber
May 2, 2022
2,520
2,533
Chichester, W.Sussex, UK
that's true - "right to repair", but I read somewhere that Shimano for example, wants exceptions from that.
Motor manufacturers are trying to conflate battery disposal and battery safety issues with the ability to repair motors (and supply parts) in order to try to create/maintain their own proprietory ecospheres. Would I ever buy an eBike with a non-repairable motor? No way. Fin.
 

RJUK

Active member
Sep 29, 2021
561
294
UK
that's true - "right to repair", but I read somewhere that Shimano for example, wants exceptions from that.
Typical. And that wouldn't be a difficult problem to solve - just exempt batteries from it. Make batteries an item that must be replaced entirely, rather than repaired, but the rest of the bike can be repaired. It's not like the battery isn't already a separate part of the system! Pretty poor excuse to be totally exempt because of that.
 

Robert9

New Member
Nov 9, 2023
15
9
CA
Bearing man, In earlier posts you stated an unwillingness to post your findings on reliability or serviceability. I think it is irresponsible for you not to post this data, including the brand and motor model, including the many China brands that I suspect may actually be the best made. Perhaps a simple chart that includes application (road or mtb) and environment (wet or heat) and MTBF (hours and miles).

By posting this information, it could be linked by other forum users and eventually get to the manufactures that can fix this problems by making improved replacement parts available and better engineered more reliable products in general as they rightfully see sales declines based on the transparency of your data. As it stands, there is little incentive for improvement without your large database and experience shared, and the continuation of planned obsolescence with engineered failure points will continue indefinitely at an expense born by its customers.

Please do the right thing and open up your findings, for the betterment of this industry. Let us hope it strongly influences the consumer purchase decisions. Perhaps also share your findings with organizations like Consumer Reports and eMTB websites. A larger distribution may better influence buying habits and promote change. This is one industry that could use some good valid advice.
 

Robert9

New Member
Nov 9, 2023
15
9
CA
Typical. And that wouldn't be a difficult problem to solve - just exempt batteries from it. Make batteries an item that must be replaced entirely, rather than repaired, but the rest of the bike can be repaired. It's not like the battery isn't already a separate part of the system! Pretty poor excuse to be totally exempt because of that.
Even better would be the batteries individual in a case, like every other electrical item. And easily replaced by the end user. The individual batteries could require a UL or CE certification to be sold in the US with a scannable QR code to verify authenticity. Realistically, these 18650 batteries have a retail price of less than $2 each (and wholesale price often $0.35 and less) for name brand LG, Samsung, Sony or Panasonic too. Then, an e-bike battery replacement would be $80 instead of $800. Perhaps more would use e-bikes for transportation and be a greener solution instead of the greedy industry taking advantage of consumers with excessively high repair and maintenance costs that can exceed the price of the bike.

Clearly I am dreaming.

At the very least, what RJUK stated. Plus we need stronger penalties against companies creating artificial barriers by not providing repair parts, or restrictive computer initializations that violate our right to repair laws.
 

Bearing Man

Ebike Motor Centre
Patreon
Sep 29, 2018
969
2,320
UK
Bearing man, In earlier posts you stated an unwillingness to post your findings on reliability or serviceability. I think it is irresponsible for you not to post this data, including the brand and motor model, including the many China brands that I suspect may actually be the best made. Perhaps a simple chart that includes application (road or mtb) and environment (wet or heat) and MTBF (hours and miles).

By posting this information, it could be linked by other forum users and eventually get to the manufactures that can fix this problems by making improved replacement parts available and better engineered more reliable products in general as they rightfully see sales declines based on the transparency of your data. As it stands, there is little incentive for improvement without your large database and experience shared, and the continuation of planned obsolescence with engineered failure points will continue indefinitely at an expense born by its customers.

Please do the right thing and open up your findings, for the betterment of this industry. Let us hope it strongly influences the consumer purchase decisions. Perhaps also share your findings with organizations like Consumer Reports and eMTB websites. A larger distribution may better influence buying habits and promote change. This is one industry that could use some good valid advice.
Normally when I don't post information, I usually put a good explanation. I have, many times explained why I won't post this particular information. Added to that, the detailed information I have, is 95% from the UK. To correlate this info across different threads or even forums, with people from different countries, would be near impossible to get a clear picture of whats going on. And very possible that many people would not buy the bike of their dreams, because a few people had a bad experience.
I have had many meetings with the "industry" and I have detailed my thoughts on the industries ethos before in great detail before
Please bear in mind, for many reasons the industry got off to a slow start, but there is a lot of change going on. By industry standards, this is a very fast moving market, so issues are getting sorted.
 

RJUK

Active member
Sep 29, 2021
561
294
UK
In your opinion, are they actually looking to address reliability and improve serviceability?
 

Bearing Man

Ebike Motor Centre
Patreon
Sep 29, 2018
969
2,320
UK
In your opinion, are they actually looking to address reliability and improve serviceability?
Some are, some not so much! There was definitely a big swing away from serviceability, but the EU sustainability laws seem to be bringing this back a little bit. Electronics and software are the big issue. A lot of our work is keeping people going by any means. If their motor is destroyed or beyond economical repair, we will try and offer an alternate motor for example.
This can't be done with some of the latest motors because they are programmed to the bike, battery and controller. The manufacturers, won't currently release the software to allow us to help these people. So the future is looking difficult!
 

RJUK

Active member
Sep 29, 2021
561
294
UK
Some are, some not so much! There was definitely a big swing away from serviceability, but the EU sustainability laws seem to be bringing this back a little bit. Electronics and software are the big issue. A lot of our work is keeping people going by any means. If their motor is destroyed or beyond economical repair, we will try and offer an alternate motor for example.
This can't be done with some of the latest motors because they are programmed to the bike, battery and controller. The manufacturers, won't currently release the software to allow us to help these people. So the future is looking difficult!
Yeah, that sucks. Basically they want us to spend a fortune on a whole new motor and have it reprogrammed for an extortionate fee at one of their Bosch dealers. As if the bikes weren't already insanely expensive in the first place.

Honestly, I hope the Chinese come in and wipe the floor with these greedy companies, like they're starting to do in the automotive industry.

Or better still, the EU force them to stop being such dicks, but who knows if that legislation would arrive in the UK... Since we Brexited we seem to be getting a bum deal with that sorta thing.
 

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