Mahle SL 1.1 to SL 1.2 - What's Possible and What's Different ?

[Chriso82]

Giant did, my 2018 full e pro runs the yamaha pwx2 from the 2020 trance - because that's what they had in stock as a warranty replacement.

Didn't specialized provide the updated brose motors as replacements as well?

It just doesn't make sense to build 1.1's side by side with 1.2's , at least it won't in a couple of years as each 1.1 fails within it's 2 year r

Yes. I think you are right, there is a very high likelihood that they won't.
But it would actually make sense for them to do this.
A lot of the cost of these parts is in the development and tooling rather than the part itself, so the actual cost price of the motor and TCU should be quite low.
When a motor or controller fails Specialized probably pass some of that cost on to Mahle. So in my case the motor probably has bearing seats that are oversize and Mahle will probably have to give Specialized a motor replacement for free. Then Specialized will have to cover costs of shipping and the dealer's labour.
If instead you can convert half your warranty claims into upgrade sales, then you turn a £100+ loss for Specialized AND a £100+ loss for Mahle into a £450 TCU2 sale that probably covers the manufacturing cost price of all the parts and the shop labour.
Mahle saves £100+
Specialized saves £100+
Shop most likely gains an additional sale of cranks etc.
Customer experience is converted from a negative warranty into a positive upgrade, increasing likelihood of buying more Specialised/Mahle products for spouse and children and recommending the brand to friends etc.
Additionally, I'm only 7 months into my 2 year warranty. This process could well be repeated twice before the warranty runs out, if the new motor really is better sealed etc then the upgrade may well prevent this, saving even more money.

Then there are the non warranty upgrade sales. £1500-2000 is probably achievable. For a product with 1 SKU.
This is probably very high profit.

Meanwhile the ability to upgrade supports the residual value of the old bikes, so customers get more money for their old bike and can afford to buy a new model sooner.

I really don't see a plausible downside.

Totally agree, with your post I'd love to upgrade my kenevo sl but doubt it will happen unfortunately. Just the way most retail firms work

 

[Hitorogoshi]

If it mounts - it's doable. Somebody will hack it and make it work. If Spez doesn't offer the upgrade someone else will and make money out of it (if they can get their hands on motors)

 

[G-Sport]

The EU are introducing "right to repair" regulations and part of that is expected to include a "..requirement to make spare parts and repair manuals available to both consumers and independent repairers for a period that reflects a product's expected lifetime.." There is wording to cover both physical parts including electronics and motors and firmware/software so the easiest way to comply would just be to list all the parts for sale.
They are also trying to encourage manufacturers to increase product lifespans. Specialized could get well ahead of this and be seen as being "green" if they kept the same motor mountings for several generations and offered the replacement parts.
I can see why, for example, washing machine manufacturers might be worried about this kind of thing. Most western households already have a washing machine and aren't super interested in upgrading it until it fails, so their sales could really take a hit. But the eMTB market is growing so fast that this really isn't a concern right now. Consumers will buy new bikes to get latest suspension and geometry etc and the "old" bikes will do more to boost the market if they are out there lowering the price of entry on the second-hand market than going to landfill.
For me, it was a big commitment to plonk £7k down on an ebike when I wasn't 100% sure I would get on with it and lots of my riding friends will never do that. If they could spend £4k on a second hand one (knowing they can keep it running and so keep it's residual value up) then they would probably jump sooner (and then soon after go shopping for the latest and greatest).
If their second hand purchase is a Specialized (because it has good residuals due to the availability of spares/upgrades) then they are very likely to stick with that brand.

 

[ghoststalker]

Did Specialized offer motor upgrade kits for the Levo? I assume they'll handle it the same way for the levo sl.

 

[c0stunga]

If it mounts - it's doable. Somebody will hack it and make it work. If Spez doesn't offer the upgrade someone else will and make money out of it (if they can get their hands on motors)

I wouldn't be so sure about that.
It's not that everyone could "hack" the TCU. If it was that easy there wouldn't be products like Levociraptor but custom firmwares to flash.
And I don't think that an interposed hardware piece will work for the new motor conversion with your old TCU. So Spech and/or your dealer would have to support the swap with hardware and software. And I don't think that's gonna happen.

One option I could imagine so far is a deal between Mahle and Spech to sell the motor under Mahle brand on free market after product EOL.

 

[Pdoz]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.
It's not that everyone could "hack" the TCU. If it was that easy there wouldn't be products like Levociraptor but custom firmwares to flash.
And I don't think that an interposed hardware piece will work for the new motor conversion with your old TCU. So Spech and/or your dealer would have to support the swap with hardware and software. And I don't think that's gonna happen.

One option I could imagine so far is a deal between Mahle and Spech to sell the motor under Mahle brand on free market after product EOL.

The dealers have been told the motors will eventually be available and backwards compatible , they just haven't been given a timeline.

I vote everyone stops buying the new bike, at which point Mahle will have a surplus of motors so they will become available . Unfortunately spec will also have a surplus of bikes, prices will drop and we'll reach the irresistible new bike price point . Probably the same day ksl2 is released

 

[G-Sport]

The dealers have been told the motors will eventually be available and backwards compatible , they just haven't been given a timeline...

If true, that would be great.
I don't understand their attitude to spares. I tried to buy new axles for boomslang pedals once and it was just impossible.

 

[George_KSL]

If true, that would be great.
I don't understand their attitude to spares. I tried to buy new axles for boomslang pedals once and it was just impossible.

Too spread out portfolio of products. The pedals are like tertiary thing they make/sell and that's what probably the support for the product looks like. The pipeline is probably strongly focused on frame parts, of which an e-mtb frame can have hundred and that's just single model.

 

[G-Sport]

Too spread out portfolio of products. The pedals are like tertiary thing they make/sell and that's what probably the support for the product looks like. The pipeline is probably strongly focused on frame parts, of which an e-mtb frame can have hundred and that's just single model.

Luckily the right to repair legislation is going to force them to change.

 

[paquo]

The dealers have been told the motors will eventually be available and backwards compatible , they just haven't been given a timeline.

kind of like the gen 3 tcu will eventually be available, sure it will

 

[Shepshepshep]

Anyone heard of after market cranks to fit the dub standard on the new sl 1.2 motor? Bike arrives this week with 170's and know I'll want to fit 160s.

 

[SquireRides]

Spesh does not need to sell 1.2 motors for a couple of years, because all bikes equipped with 1.2 will be under warranty for that time. I mean, there might be a price list, but good luck getting one unless you're a registered 1.2 owner. They need all this new motors for new bike production runs and warranties, for a good few months at least.

So this is what will happen: If your Gen1 Levo SL motor dies in 2023 you'll probably be offered a 1.1 motor under warranty (or the assisted replacement thing Spesh do, post-warranty). At some point, they'll be out of 1.1 motors and it becomes cheaper for them to just manufacture 1.2 motors. Then, if your 1.1 motor dies, you'll probably be lucky enough to be offered a 1.2 to replace it. And by that time we *might* be able to buy 1.2 off the shelf, maybe.

We just don't know when....

 

[ivee]

Would the 1.2 motor fit existing Levo SL? I saw the above on KSL with new bashguard and a new screw and cranks. How about LSL?

 

[aperock]

NIICE

 

[aperock]

THANKS

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

I did look into buying a new sl with the 1.2 motor at about $8k plus tax and then swapping some higher end components from my 2022 expert carbon bike. I think the net cost to just get a bit more torque and quieter was at least $4-5K (and the hassle of trying to sell my older bike), just not worth it for me. And I actually like the more conservative geometry of the 2022, nice and responsive on the trails I ride and OK on the downhills, where the 2023 sl with the 1.2 motor is probably better but a bit longer, more slack and maybe not as responsive as my bike. So I would probably jump at a $2K motor upgrade in a heartbeat but I don't think $4-5K is worth it when I have $10+K invested in my 38 lb rather new 1+ year old ebike. If they ever offer an upgrade path I'll be the first to line up but for now my 2022 is really a great bike a little down on power and a little noisy too.

 

[CruJones]

Surely, the 1.2 SL motor would not be $2K. I would think it's closer to $1k. Isn't a Brose motor around $1K? Is the Mahle motor typically closer to $2K?

edit:
Yeah, the current 1.1 motor is around $1.2K on Performance's website.

Specialized 2020 SL 1.1 E-Bike Motor System

This is a replacement Specialized Electric Motor system for Como, Creo, Kenevo, Vado, and Levo E-bikes. This item is used on the following... S196800016

www.performancebike.com

edit 2:

ok, yeah, $1750 or thereabouts for a 1.2 motor. I suppose the price will come down at some point because I can't imagine there being ~$600 in costs associated with the new motor vs the 1.1.

Specialized levo

ELE COVER, LEVO SL (GEN.2), CARBON FRAME, MOTOR ROCK GUARD K

northwestbicycle.com

 

[G-Sport]

Surely, the 1.2 SL motor would not be $2K. I would think it's closer to $1k. Isn't a Brose motor around $1K? Is the Mahle motor typically closer to $2K?

edit:
Yeah, the current 1.1 motor is around $1.2K on Performance's website.

Specialized 2020 SL 1.1 E-Bike Motor System

This is a replacement Specialized Electric Motor system for Como, Creo, Kenevo, Vado, and Levo E-bikes. This item is used on the following... S196800016

www.performancebike.com

edit 2:

ok, yeah, $1750 or thereabouts for a 1.2 motor. I suppose the price will come down at some point because I can't imagine there being ~$600 in costs associated with the new motor vs the 1.1.

Specialized levo

ELE COVER, LEVO SL (GEN.2), CARBON FRAME, MOTOR ROCK GUARD K

northwestbicycle.com

Interesting to even see it listed. Apparently you would also need the TCU mastermind though so unless that is for sale somewhere too it isn't on.

 

[sdcoffeeroaster]

Surely, the 1.2 SL motor would not be $2K. I would think it's closer to $1k. Isn't a Brose motor around $1K? Is the Mahle motor typically closer to $2K?

edit:
Yeah, the current 1.1 motor is around $1.2K on Performance's website.

Specialized 2020 SL 1.1 E-Bike Motor System

This is a replacement Specialized Electric Motor system for Como, Creo, Kenevo, Vado, and Levo E-bikes. This item is used on the following... S196800016

www.performancebike.com

edit 2:

ok, yeah, $1750 or thereabouts for a 1.2 motor. I suppose the price will come down at some point because I can't imagine there being ~$600 in costs associated with the new motor vs the 1.1.

Specialized levo

ELE COVER, LEVO SL (GEN.2), CARBON FRAME, MOTOR ROCK GUARD K

northwestbicycle.com

Wow they list the motor. So with the TCU and any wiring changes and crank arms if not included might be more like $2500. USD. I guess that's one way NOT to offer it, price it way too high,lol. Unless you DIY, add some more for labor although I would DIY. I've swapped a warranty frame out on my Focus Jam2 so can't be any tougher than that and cable routing was pain on that one.

 

[CruJones]

If the 1.2 could work with the old TCU and be priced closer to $1.5K then I think a lot of people would be interested, but that doesn't sell bikes now does it?

 

[G-Sport]

Given what Bosch and Shimano motors cost, and if the Pinion MGU is going to be priced around $1000 then these prices seem completely unreasonable by comparison. If on the other hand I could get a 1.2 motor and Mastermind TCU for around the $1000 mark I would probably jump straight on it, and I think Specialized could still make a good profit at this price.

 

[George_KSL]

Why would the engine not be compatible with existing MasterMind TCU on Kenevo SL though? I would wager it's the same unit with mere firmware flash. Of course, for Levo SL gen 1.0, TCU unit would be needed.

1700 USD + Whatever cranks work with it = 1900 USD, not great, not terrible. Up to around 1200 USD, it would be no-brainer.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Great work!!!
I would love spec to drop the mahle motor and just take the one that sits in Orbea Rise and use better cells for their battery. Just for info - i've bought aftermarket 480wh extender for KSL and it weights only 1.8 kg. That is the same as internal 320wh.
Imagine having stock 480wh... that is 50% increase if we are speaking about more range or more power if they would use 65nm motor like the one Orbea used.
Even TQ would be a better choice :
Trek Fuel EXe (50Nm motor & 360Wh battery) – 3.68kg
Specialized Levo SL (35Nm motor & 320Wh battery) – 3.75kg
Orbea Rise (60Nm motor & 360Wh battery) – 4.8kg

Good info.

Also:

Fazua 60 in the Relay/ Pivot SL/ Haibike/ etc. (60Nm motor & 430Wh battery) - 4.26 kg

I don't have any points of e-bike reference but I can tell you that with big grippy tires and an Enduro bike build it's enough battery juice for me to ride longer than my body can go, 2x over.

Forum member Junior has a new SL and when he recovers a bit we'll hopefully get together and ride and we might get some good comparison data then.

 

[Fit_Fat_almost_50]

Not much standard on her anymore so decided to give her a face job

 

[Doomanic]

 

[squeegee]

Is it me or was there a youtube link here yesterday to servicing a Mahle motor that disappeared?

 

[ilfer]

Is it me or was there a youtube link here yesterday to servicing a Mahle motor that disappeared?

They pulled my posting with the video over here:
#10

 

[Moderator]

1.2 to 1.1 power discussion moved to new thread :

The King has no clothes - SL 1.2 Power

The King Has No Clothes. In my quest to race E Enduro, I upgraded my beloved Kenevo SL. I achieved this by purchasing a brand new SL equipped with the 1.2 motor, swapping motors and TCUs, and then selling the other bike at a discount. The swapping process was straightforward. The only adjustment...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[crawfishoo]

Reviving a previous thread to ask some basic questions about SL 1.1 to SL 1.2 motor swap. I have looked through all the threads I could find and have not seen these details. In a very round about way I end up with a Levo SL Kids for my 7 year old. I have a gen 1 alloy SL and thinking about swapping the motors. If you have personally swapped motors from a Kids SL to a full size bike please message me so I can pick your brain.

1) The SL kids motor is limited to 10 or 15 MPH. If you have done a swap with the kids bike, did you do anything with the speed limiter? With 29" vs 24" wheels the actual speed cutoff is plenty high, but I would really like to get accurate speed via the TCU to record rides. Can a dealer put the standard Gen 2 firmware onto the kids TCU to get accurate speed data?

2) Crank arms for SL 1.1. I plan to have my son ride the SL kids bike. Any ideas or links to cranks in the 140mm range with M30 interface for SL 1.1 motor? And are not $400+? I can cut down a set of aluminum ones, but curious if anything exists in the 140mm range?

3) Crank arms for SL 1.2. Those that have done the swap, what crank arms did you use on the full size bike? Purchase gen 2 cranks from Specialized?

 

[ThierryGTLTS]

For SL 1.1, go there Praxisworks SL M30

For SL 1.2, buy SRAM ones, there SRAM for SL 1.2, or elsewhere

Hope this helps.