Levo SL Gen 1 Levo SL vs Orbea Rise **edit update**

[sendler2112]

"
Hi @AlexEMTB and others following the post. This is worth commenting on for SL bikes specifically.

Many riders on this forum ask what we do with data that we pick up from recorded rides etc in Mission Control. This is a great example. The specific firmware update you mentioned for SL bikes doesn't in itself offer a performance upgrade, rather it allows the retailer to perform a calibration to the torque sensor. Using actual field ride-data we detected small calibration drifts in a batch of motors and subsequently created the ability for our retailers to re-calibrate motors in-store via a firmware update and a matching calibration step.

Depending if the torque drift is positive or negative, the rider will have two slightly different experiences.
a) For positive drift, the peak torque of the motor will be reached with less rider input - giving the feeling of higher than normal power even if your support settings are set low. e.g. ECO 30/60 could feel like TURBO 60/100 (example settings).
b) For a negative drift you will need to put in more power to reach peak torque. This would feeling as though the bike has less power even if your support settings are high. e.g. TURBO 60/100 feels like ECO 30/60 (example settings).

In both cases because of the offset the motor can feel more 'digital' or "on/off". After calibration you may notice smoother power that feels more constant across support settings. Sounds like this is what you noticed after the update? Its hard for a rider where the bike has always behaved like this to notice unless they ride another bike that is calibrated.

Important to know - if other riders are concerned they can use Mission Control / Diagnose / Advanced Diagnose / Send Report and then check with their retailer if their bike Serial Number is showing a Torque offset. This can be done remotely when our retailers check field event codes. There is no risk or motor fault as such, once calibrated the torque sensor won't drift again. This was a limited batch of motors that were fitted to bikes too soon after component manufacture - before the magnetic components had settled fully.
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Levo SL Gen 1 - SL NEW Software Update

Just got the latest software update at my dealer. Has anyone ridden it yet and noticed a difference?

www.emtbforums.com

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[apac]

Reading at this forum, I would advice (though I’m not M.D.) buy an orbea, blood pressure should go down!

Not sure it is the best choice though. To me, when you do compromise like light ebikes try to do, rather go extrem. Having an ebike a tad lighter with the exact same motor (almost same behavior, exact same weight, equal drag) but only powerfully restricted, is not really a winning paradigm... But I guess there is a bike for everyone...

Rise is like a compromise within a compromising story! Go fullfat, go sl or even if young and wild go muscular. At the end go what ever the fuck you fancy!

It's too late for me. Did own a full fat, now own SL. Oh, and SL much lighter than Orbea Rise (like for like)

 

[R120]

What geometry? Head angle? Chain stay length? Reach?

Pretty much all of it, I haven't ridden the Rise but have ridden the SL a few times, technically I would be on an L, but it feels too short and the seat tube angle put me further back over the rear wheel than I would like.

Its still a super fun bike to ride due to the weight and the excellent motor, but coming from my other bikes I feel more sat on it than in it to use an old cliche.

 

[ReVolt]

"
Hi @AlexEMTB and others following the post. This is worth commenting on for SL bikes specifically.

Many riders on this forum ask what we do with data that we pick up from recorded rides etc in Mission Control. This is a great example. The specific firmware update you mentioned for SL bikes doesn't in itself offer a performance upgrade, rather it allows the retailer to perform a calibration to the torque sensor. Using actual field ride-data we detected small calibration drifts in a batch of motors and subsequently created the ability for our retailers to re-calibrate motors in-store via a firmware update and a matching calibration step.

Depending if the torque drift is positive or negative, the rider will have two slightly different experiences.
a) For positive drift, the peak torque of the motor will be reached with less rider input - giving the feeling of higher than normal power even if your support settings are set low. e.g. ECO 30/60 could feel like TURBO 60/100 (example settings).
b) For a negative drift you will need to put in more power to reach peak torque. This would feeling as though the bike has less power even if your support settings are high. e.g. TURBO 60/100 feels like ECO 30/60 (example settings).

In both cases because of the offset the motor can feel more 'digital' or "on/off". After calibration you may notice smoother power that feels more constant across support settings. Sounds like this is what you noticed after the update? Its hard for a rider where the bike has always behaved like this to notice unless they ride another bike that is calibrated.

Important to know - if other riders are concerned they can use Mission Control / Diagnose / Advanced Diagnose / Send Report and then check with their retailer if their bike Serial Number is showing a Torque offset. This can be done remotely when our retailers check field event codes. There is no risk or motor fault as such, once calibrated the torque sensor won't drift again. This was a limited batch of motors that were fitted to bikes too soon after component manufacture - before the magnetic components had settled fully.
.

Levo SL Gen 1 - SL NEW Software Update

Just got the latest software update at my dealer. Has anyone ridden it yet and noticed a difference?

www.emtbforums.com

.

Interesting if a little Big Brotherish...so in the spirit of full and honest disclosure, presumably you can also tell if an owner has ‘de-restricted’ the bike either mechanically or via direct input into the software ?

 

[Mooncat]

Just a short ride up a nearby hill on pavement. Not enough to really know. Bike shops cannot afford to let a new, elite bike like the Levo SL get dirty before they sell it. So we have to just sit on the bike or, if we are lucky, get a short test ride on the street on a dry day to even know if it fits. So ebike buyers are left to research good and reputable reviews as to motor characteristics. You can very clearly see the "Late to the party" application of electric power in the closing shot of him hopping up on the bench. When he goes to wheelie the SL to drop off of the other side, you clearly see the front wheel is initially lifted by human power, and then the bike shoots ahead when the motor kicks in.
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It's only like that when you use Turbo at a time that much less assistance (i.e. no assistance) is required. Stick it in Turbo when you want a bit of over-run to get over a step with the pedals flat or on seriously steep terrain. The delivery in Eco and Sport is incredibly smooth and feels totally natural.

 

[nB2000]

I’m getting along term Orbea Rise in Jan by the way and have a lot planned with this bike, including some direct comparisons to my Levo SL.

Hey Rob, how's it going with your demo rise?
I bet like me there are a lot of readers keen to know your impresssions.
I'm hoping the pedal feel / natural ride is like the Kinesis Rise (Fazua) hardtail but with some nice rear suspension to take the hits out

thanks for your informative reviews.

 

[sendler2112]

Interesting if a little Big Brotherish...so in the spirit of full and honest disclosure, presumably you can also tell if an owner has ‘de-restricted’ the bike either mechanically or via direct input into the software ?

That is pasted from another thread and is a reply by a Specialized factory engineer regarding the update that is available for early Levo SL's.

 

[sendler2112]

It's too late for me. Did own a full fat, now own SL. Oh, and SL much lighter than Orbea Rise (like for like)

The Levo SL Carbon is about 900 grams lighter than the Orbea Rise like for like due to the smaller motor and battery. The SL aluminum will be about the same weight as the Rise Carbon price for price.

 

[ReVolt]

That is pasted from another thread and is a reply by a Specialized factory engineer regarding the update that is available for early Levo SL's.

Ok no worries

 

[danf72]

Nope.

Maybe it was in issue back in May, but there have been at least a couple of firmware updates since then. Motor does not have the characteristic that you speak of.

Totally agree. My SL had the start stop feeling and was driving me mad. Had the latest firmware update done this week and it feels so much better. Not sure if its just in my head but feels so much smoother and for some reason quieter ?

 

[Norcalsl]

The power delivery on my SL is smooth as silk. I had my LBS do the firmware update shortly after I purchased it in August.

 

[Chris1969]

Just started my comparison of the Levo SL and the Orbea Rise today. On the Orbea iˋm looking for a setup on the ep8 to make a reasonable comparison.

So i set it to 38Nm and the power delivery smooth and lv2 assist on the app.

I got 1620Hm out of the main battery and a nice assist without to much „push“ - quite the same to the Levo SL in 50/100 setting on trail mode. Get 1700Hm out of the Levo SL. I ride with around 200 Watts on the pedals (SRM System) with 70 Kilos.

Rise is a bit less noisy on the up, but rattles on the downs. Handling wise i prefer the Levo SL because its a bit more stable and linear in the rear.

The system with garmin app to show the battery left on the Orbea is annoying - I prefer the clean TCU of the Levo Sl over the ENEW100 mini unit with just two lights and no battery indicator (only red when at 10%) on the Orbea.

Orbea is 18,3 Kilos with carbon wheels, EXO tires, carbon bars and kashima. Levo SL is 17,7 with aluminium wheels, bars and sturdier gravity trail tires. So in direct comaprison with same tires the Orbea is 18,6. Levo SL with carbon parts goes down to 17.

 

[Chris1969]

update on the comparison test Levo SL vs. Orbea - second comparison with identical outdoor temperature (14°) and identical surface (partly muddy but mostly dry).

With 45/100 the Levo SL made 1445Hm, the last 10% with much less power, the last 5% it was just enough to compensate the weight. On my first try i got the motor setup wrong an rode it in 30/100 (Trail) setting. So i had to do it again On the ups the motor is much louder. On the downs the new SL with 36 Grip2 and DPX2 ist kind of a light Enduro weapon. Very stable but nimble and poppy where you need it. Quite perfect, if you ask me. The rear is planted, front is aggressive, but really sensitive. The brakes could have a bit more bite, maybe i messed them up because i just rode downhill without breaking them in correctly. Very quite bike downhill.

With the Orbea i changed to 33Nm and LV2 with mild power output (Trail) and got 1645Hm with less power the last 10% like with the Levo SL. Motor is much quieter on the ups, you still hear it, but you‘re not embarassed when you pass pedestrians on steep climbs Power input is light, but still not as unrecognizable as with the Levo. It kicks in a bit when you start, but not in a bad way. Just different to the fully natural feeling of the SL 1.1. On the downs the Orbea is more of a Trailbike. Rear is more progressive and feels less planted than the Levo SL. Front is the same. Motor rattles, especially when your in slow, rocky sections - it clicks and clanks on every rock. Brakes are very good (XTR Trail) with good modulation but not more bite than the Codes on the Levo.

Neutralized Power was 210 Watts on the Levo and 196 Watts on the Orbea. So the bigger battery helps the Orbea to get some more Hm even with less rider input.

I personally ride my Levo SL S-Works (size M), wich i tuned to 16,5 Kilos (including pedals), with 25/100 setting and can get up to 1900Hm with the internal battery and about 250 Watts neutralized power output.

 

[Chris1969]

What really made me mad: i couldn‘t make the Orbea RS App work with my Garmin. I registered the Bike, got the unlock, installed the App to my watch...and than it didn‘t work at all. So no battery check while riding, no battery status at the end. Annoying to say the least. Compared to the brilliant Specailized App where tuning and data is easy to see and tune, the Orbea is a big fail. Especially, because the bike came without any display (to safe 10 gramms?). I had to buy the E-Max-App to get battery status. Orbea has to rework it asap.

 

[R120]

Couldn't you just connect the Shimano E-Tube app?

 

[Chris1969]

Couldn't you just connect the Shimano E-Tube app?

Of course - to tune the motor, that is the way. It works good, but is not as user friendly as the Specialized App. The LV-Levels for rider input are not clear - you have to ride it out to get, what it means. But if you want speed, cadence, battery status while riding, you need the Orbea RS App, because there is no display on the bike, just the ENEW100 Unit

 

[R120]

Sorry I meant E-Tube Ride app, this is the other shimano app that replicates the display on the bike.

E-TUBE RIDE-EU

E-TUBE RIDE transforms your smartphone into a full-fledged cycle computer. The route map to your destination and your ride data are available to view in real time. You can log your ride data and upload to SHIMANO CONNECT Lab or STRAVA.

bike.shimano.com

 

[Chris1969]

Sorry I meant E-Tube Ride app, this is the other shimano app that replicates the display on the bike.

E-TUBE RIDE-EU

E-TUBE RIDE transforms your smartphone into a full-fledged cycle computer. The route map to your destination and your ride data are available to view in real time. You can log your ride data and upload to SHIMANO CONNECT Lab or STRAVA.

bike.shimano.com

Ups, didn‘t check THAT! Orbea themself tell you to register your bike and to install the App for further ride data. I will try it asap!

 

[R120]

Its not great and designed for use with the phone mounted on the bars, but I too run the EW100 on my bike as I hate displays, and it comes in handy from time to time.

Not sure if @mark.ai data field for Garmin that he created for the E8000 works with the EP8, I have that on my watch.

Garmin watch data field for Shimano STEPS EMTBs

This is something I've wanted to try for a while, and finally got around to it! Garmin released some generic Bluetooth libraries for developers earlier in the year which opened up the possibility of connecting new watches to Shimano EMTBs (since Garmin have never added direct support...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[Chicane]

update on the comparison test Levo SL vs. Orbea - second comparison with identical outdoor temperature (14°) and identical surface (partly muddy but mostly dry).

With 45/100 the Levo SL made 1445Hm, the last 10% with much less power, the last 5% it was just enough to compensate the weight. On my first try i got the motor setup wrong an rode it in 30/100 (Trail) setting. So i had to do it again On the ups the motor is much louder. On the downs the new SL with 36 Grip2 and DPX2 ist kind of a light Enduro weapon. Very stable but nimble and poppy where you need it. Quite perfect, if you ask me. The rear is planted, front is aggressive, but really sensitive. The brakes could have a bit more bite, maybe i messed them up because i just rode downhill without breaking them in correctly. Very quite bike downhill.

With the Orbea i changed to 33Nm and LV2 with mild power output (Trail) and got 1645Hm with less power the last 10% like with the Levo SL. Motor is much quieter on the ups, you still hear it, but you‘re not embarassed when you pass pedestrians on steep climbs Power input is light, but still not as unrecognizable as with the Levo. It kicks in a bit when you start, but not in a bad way. Just different to the fully natural feeling of the SL 1.1. On the downs the Orbea is more of a Trailbike. Rear is more progressive and feels less planted than the Levo SL. Front is the same. Motor rattles, especially when your in slow, rocky sections - it clicks and clanks on every rock. Brakes are very good (XTR Trail) with good modulation but not more bite than the Codes on the Levo.

Neutralized Power was 210 Watts on the Levo and 196 Watts on the Orbea. So the bigger battery helps the Orbea to get some more Hm even with less rider input.

I personally ride my Levo SL S-Works (size M), wich i tuned to 16,5 Kilos (including pedals), with 25/100 setting and can get up to 1900Hm with the internal battery and about 250 Watts neutralized power output.

How do these bikes compare on the steeper climbing sections due to the slacker ST angle on the SL? Do you notice a significant more amount of front wheel lift on the SL and have to weight the front more?

 

[RickBullotta]

Just started my comparison of the Levo SL and the Orbea Rise today. On the Orbea iˋm looking for a setup on the ep8 to make a reasonable comparison.

So i set it to 38Nm and the power delivery smooth and lv2 assist on the app.

Just curious why you consider neutering the Rise's power a "reasonable comparison"? Isn't that kind of the point of choosing the Rise over the SL?

 

[CjP]

? ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Just curious why you consider neutering the Rise's power a "reasonable comparison"? Isn't that kind of the point of choosing the Rise over the SL?

I think the idea is to "neuter" it so they feel similar to then compare the height and distance attainable.

It's never going to be the same, it's just to get some idea.

As @Christian says .. it's fruity ...

 

[RickBullotta]

I think the idea is to "neuter" it so they feel similar to then compare the height and distance attainable.

It's never going to be the same, it's just to get some idea.

As @Christian says .. it's fruity ...

I'm going to do a side-by-side comparison of a Lamborghini Aventador and a Ford Focus. They weight about the same. And they have four wheels and suspension. Except I'm going to disable 6 of the Lambo's 10 cylinders to make it fair. ;-) ??

 

[CjP]

I'm going to do a side-by-side comparison of a Lamborghini Gallardo and Ford Focus. They weight about the same. And they have four wheels and suspension. Except I'm going to disable 6 of the Lambo's 10 cylinders to make it fair. ;-) ??

I’ve driven a Lambo, you’d have to deactivate 9 cylinders at least. A better comparison would be a Focus and a Audi TT..

 

[mark.ai]

Not sure if @mark.ai data field for Garmin that he created for the E8000 works with the EP8, I have that on my watch.

I think it will work especially when using the EW-EN100 (as that part is still the same) - but I don't think anyone has actually confirmed it for sure There's a report here of it working with the new EP8 display but only on an Edge so far (not a watch): Garmin watch data field for Shimano STEPS EMTBs - EMTB Forums

But there is a Garmin-side bug with some of their watches: Vivoactive 4 (and Vivo 4s and possibly Venu) that prevents the bluetooth connecting - so don't try it with one of those!

I haven't used the E-Tube Ride App - but I think it might only display 5 bars and not the actual percentage - at least I haven't managed to find any screenshots of it displaying a percentage ...

 

[Zimmerframe]

I'm going to do a side-by-side comparison of a Lamborghini Aventador and a Ford Focus.

I bet you get more people in the Focus !

 

[Chris1969]

Just curious why you consider neutering the Rise's power a "reasonable comparison"? Isn't that kind of the point of choosing the Rise over the SL?

I use eBikes as a more effective mtb training tool. Riding more downhill in a one-day-tour than with my normal MTB is my goal. So i always search for the best way to get as much elevation/downhill runs out of my bike. If at the end of the day my legs and my bike’s battery are „empty“ at the same time, it chose the motor setup well and achieved my goal/ made perfect usage of the concept.

So i want to know, how many height metres more i get with the Orbeas bigger internal battery, when i put the same rider effort in. I know how i can train with the Levo SL, as i ride it for over a year now. If i‘d use the full 60NM of the orbea, the battery would be dead too early for what i want. Of course i would have been faster uphill, but i would miss a run or two on the downs.

I did that with my „normal“ e-Bike before: i tuned it down to slightly under 20 Kilos, tamed the Shimano e8000 via E-Max-App to 40NM and can do 3500hm tours in a day (with two 500WH batteries) for total exhaustion of myself I admit, i may be a bit special in that regard. But i‘m happy with it.

 

[Chris1969]

How do these bikes compare on the steeper climbing sections due to the slacker ST angle on the SL? Do you notice a significant more amount of front wheel lift on the SL and have to weight the front more?

I‘m short, just 5‘7 - so i rather have problems with slack seat angles. Only if they are very slack - that’s not the fact with the SL. I still push the saddle on my SL slightly forward and i can climb quite steep stuff on it. I didn‘t feel a reasonable advantage on the Orbea. What seems more important to me, is the reaaaaaly smooth power delivery of the SL 1.1 motor. That helps so much on muddy, wet, slippery climbs, because you don‘t loose traction. With the shimano there is sometimes too much power delivered to the rear wheel and that‘s tricky in tough conditions and in the really steep stuff.

 

[Chris1969]

I'm going to do a side-by-side comparison of a Lamborghini Aventador and a Ford Focus. They weight about the same. And they have four wheels and suspension. Except I'm going to disable 6 of the Lambo's 10 cylinders to make it fair. ;-) ??

It‘s more like Porsche 911 vs. Lamborghini in my opinion And if a range comparison would be in my interest, i would try to make the motors run on the same level of torque on my test loop to get an answer. Both would loose against the Focus of course