now that is an expensive hobby. Cool footage btw.
Levo SL Gen 1 Levo SL killed by Orbea?
- Thread starter hbakken
- Start date
now that is an expensive hobby. Cool footage btw.
I thought I was the only member on here with their own pro model motorsport vehicle?
cappuccino34
Active member
Good God.
I've had the analogy Police and now the boredom Police and it's not even 7pm yet.
Don't be so lacking in understanding for your fellow apes (police).
cappuccino34
Active member
TBF it's a relatively 'cheap' car to run for the pace it manages, I typically spend around £800/meeting all in.
I drove in Europe a little bit for a small racing car manufacturer and that was typically £25k/weekend, thankfully I was on the receiving end, not the paying end of that gig.
Christ their hotdogs are expensive.
Ok , so this is as close as I can find in the MTB world for you to the Suzuki Cappuccino :
But it's still 19.8 kg's !
But it's still 19.8 kg's !
cappuccino34
Active member
Entries are typically £500 or so. Fuel, overnights, tyre and brake wear, Sticky Toffee Puddings. It adds up.
That’s decent tbf. Tyres for bikes are crazy now. Can do that alone on tyres. Running scrubs on a test day....
Plus all other costs ??
PhilBaker
Well-known member
Impressive stuff Wayne!
cappuccino34
Active member
Thank you.
I originally built it to race in a particular championship for sports and saloon cars, and one of the regulations is that it has to use an engine from the same manufacturer as the car.
A Cappuccino obviously wouldn't be most people's first choice but, given the regulations and that Suzuki Motor Corporation also make some rather powerful bikes, I chose to build a Cap with a Gen-ii Hayabusa motor. Most of the chassis parts are from an A1GP car, if you know what one of those is?
It proved to be so effective that they banned it. At the local circuit (Croft) it was eight seconds under the lap record though, so I couldn't say I was surprised that they did ban it. I broke the lap record at every circuit with it. Reliability was really good too, which always helps with championships.
I concur, I have a 2020 Sworks Levo for the days where I'm going to do a lot of hills and want the additional support, and I have a 20 SL Expert Carbon for the days when I want just a little help... Two completely different bikes. The Orbea sounds like it's somewhere in between.... I’m perfectly content that the SL will continue to be a popular choice for those that need what it offers.
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Here's a comparison between the SL and Rise. I have guessed the max power of the EP8RS to 550W (60Nm @ 90rpm). The x axis goes to 950 Watts which is what an average untrained male weighing 85kg can output for 5 seconds (500 Watts is the average for 1 minute). The motor is asked for 200% of the rider input ("2x you"). Neither motor is able to output what we like when the rider starts to pedal hard, but at least the Rise is much better. The result will be better if we ask for less assistance, but interestingly, the fitter the person the worse the result (a pro can output more than double the power of an untrained).
IMO, the lack of assistance in % of the rider input is really noticeable on the SL.
I own two SL Experts (one for me, one for wife). I also have 4 friends with SLs. We all love our SLs. None of us have EVER said we wished the SL had more power. That's not what we bought it for. I also have a friend who just bought the new Orbea Rise M10. It weighs almost exactly what my 2021 Expert weighs and arguably has better specs (Fox factory vs Fox performance elite) for an MSRP that is $1500 less. I rode the Rise and it is a great bike. The extra power is nice, but not necessary IMO. I'd be tuning it down anyway if I owned one. So it seems to me that if you are in the market for one of these bikes, power is not you deciding factor... otherwise you'd be looking for a FF eBike. But if price and specs are your motivation... it's hard to be the Rise with an SL. $1500 less for a better spec'd bike is kinda a no-brainer.
KeithR
Well-known member
You can't tell some people that, Jim - they have to believe that what they think is the only "right".
I'm exactly the same as you. As I've said before, we buy and ride SLs for what they are, not for what they are not.
And no doubt I'll be told - again - that I'm wrong to think that what I think I think, is actually what I think...
cappuccino34
Active member
I hired an SL for the day in Grizedale Forest; it's similar terrain to what I mostly ride so it was relevant.
It was only the alloy 'comp' version, so it had cheap suspension and brakes, which definitely showed on the ride, with very poor compliance. For the rock-hopping trials type of riding it was definitely short of grunt to get the job done. The shortage of grunt wasn't necessarily a complete deal breaker though. I don't like the fact that to get a decent component spec you have to buy upgrades or have a carbon frame. I didn't really want a carbon frame (when it only saves a pound in weight) because carbon will get damaged for sure with our terrain.
I also rode a Lapierre E-zesty. I didn't like the chassis because it wanted to push-on in uphill turns, with the short chainstays putting too much weight over the rear; and the frame creaked more than my old bones. The Fazua motor was super smooth and almost silent, in that regard it won absolutely hands down (in a better frame). I also liked the quality of the engineering on the motor and battery, it was very nice. Spoke-mounted magnet and chainstay mounted speed sensor was like a prototype joke-shop affair, just not good enough to last, but that could very easily be re-engineered into the rear caliper bracket and brake disc so wasn't a deal breaker for the Fazua setup. However, it gives Zero torque at zero cadence, and there's a delay before any torque is delivered, which is absolutely no good for getting over big obstacles. I emailed Fazua to ask if it was possible for it to be tuned how I wanted it, but they gave me an answer to a question that I didn't ask, so I took the assumption that the system won't give torque from a standstill.
So, in a nutshell, right now there doesn't seem to be a bike that's perfect for me.
It was only the alloy 'comp' version, so it had cheap suspension and brakes, which definitely showed on the ride, with very poor compliance. For the rock-hopping trials type of riding it was definitely short of grunt to get the job done. The shortage of grunt wasn't necessarily a complete deal breaker though. I don't like the fact that to get a decent component spec you have to buy upgrades or have a carbon frame. I didn't really want a carbon frame (when it only saves a pound in weight) because carbon will get damaged for sure with our terrain.
I also rode a Lapierre E-zesty. I didn't like the chassis because it wanted to push-on in uphill turns, with the short chainstays putting too much weight over the rear; and the frame creaked more than my old bones. The Fazua motor was super smooth and almost silent, in that regard it won absolutely hands down (in a better frame). I also liked the quality of the engineering on the motor and battery, it was very nice. Spoke-mounted magnet and chainstay mounted speed sensor was like a prototype joke-shop affair, just not good enough to last, but that could very easily be re-engineered into the rear caliper bracket and brake disc so wasn't a deal breaker for the Fazua setup. However, it gives Zero torque at zero cadence, and there's a delay before any torque is delivered, which is absolutely no good for getting over big obstacles. I emailed Fazua to ask if it was possible for it to be tuned how I wanted it, but they gave me an answer to a question that I didn't ask, so I took the assumption that the system won't give torque from a standstill.
So, in a nutshell, right now there doesn't seem to be a bike that's perfect for me.
KeithR
Well-known member
Or to put it another way:
"Bike used for something it's not designed for, not brilliant at thing it's not designed for."
Hardly a surprise, surely?
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i test rode a rise and i really liked it. It was quiet aside from the knock in the motor every time you freewheeled. I liked the steeper seat tube as it put me more forward. If I were to do it over again i would go for the rise but i really like my sl. Lately i have been using 60/80/100 power and it is sufficient , actually way more than enough. However as soon as it starts to go up hill the sl really slows and makes you work, i guess that's the idea though.
cappuccino34
Active member
The point I'm trying to make is that the ideal bike for me probably doesn't exist, not yet anyway. I want a bike that can really climb, the SL doesn't do so very well.
Sales numbers over time will tell I suppose.
I'm not looking for a bike for bling and posing, I want one that can tackle my local terrain. Function over form.
KeithR
Well-known member
That's fine, and your intent was clear; but the fact remains that you're complaining about the bike not being very good at something it was never designed to be good at.
Should probably go without saying, I'd suggest.
Did you hire those from BikeTreks or somewhere else? I might have to try that ...
Also wondering which areas you were riding - the red route? Or some of the bridleways maybe?
cappuccino34
Active member
Yes, bike treks and the red MTB route exactly.
I hired the Lapierre from Kielder Forrest
cappuccino34
Active member
'Twas a long day, nearly six hours of driving plus the riding.
cappuccino34
Active member
Not really, often a product has a wider range of abilities than that for which it was designed.
I didn't KNOW what it would be good at, and you certainly can't take what someone else says before forking out such a lump of money.
I tried it, it was ok but really nothing special. It's light, but there are other light bikes with better equipment for the money.
cappuccino34
Active member
I'm commenting, not complaining.
If you want complaining, see what I've written about the shit wiring and user app on the giant pages.
It's because of the problems that I've had with my current bike that I'm looking at and test riding, other bikes. Now I've had an e-bike for a while, I have a better understanding of what to look for in a machine to suit our terrain and what I enjoy doing. Very few bikes, besides bespoke downhill machines, are advertised saying specifically what they were designed to do; why would you put off potential buyers (?) if your bike is an 'all rounder', as most of them are, with compromises all over so as not to exclude any particular category of riding.
Exactly, I have two ebikes... a 20 Sworks Levo and a 20 SL Expert Carbon. I bought the SL because the Levo was just too much power riding tight and winding trails and/or riding with my very fit acoustic riding friends. If you are on tight stuff you will blast through turns and overshoot things with the Levo.... the SL is PERFECT in that setting. I have two primary riding areas, one is lots of big hills and less tight trails... I ride the Levo there, the other is very tight, and I only ride the SL there. The bottom line is that there IS no perfect solution, there is such a thing as TOO MUCH power, and there are cases where there is not enough. I've owned three FF Levos and I love them but if I could only own one bike, I would probably go SL... Having said that the BEST solution is to have one of each.
I feel there may be a misconception here that if you double the peak power you have to double the assist level. Not the case, just dial the assist down to where you want it and enjoy the extra headroom when the ascent is punishing.
(Levo's problem is not excessive power, it's weight)
(Levo's problem is not excessive power, it's weight)
Exactly. No one I know rides the SL on turbo anyway... so the Rise having more power isn't really a selling point to me.
MLX John
Active member
Only time I've ridden my SL set at 100/100 turbo has been on pavement getting to a trailhead.
It's ridiculously powerful for being a "low powered" E-bike.
Obviously FF bikes are even more ridiculous.
It's ridiculously powerful for being a "low powered" E-bike.
Obviously FF bikes are even more ridiculous.
Rosemount
E*POWAH Elite
There are a few things you can do to help the Levo in tight stuff .
Set the power mode so acceleration is lower , but power is still high . Gives a more progressive feel .
Learn to pedal more gently and higher cadence . Bike will be more responsive and interactive .
Drag the back brake in tight twisty sections . Keep pedaling but govern the acceleration with the brake .
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