Let’s Be Careful Out There - Cannock Chase Mugging

[Underblu]

In some states you are as I understand. If pepper spray was legal, chances are you'd be pepper sprayed then assaulted before your bike was stolen

I don’t know of any state where it’s legal to shoot someone for stealing your stuff such as your bike, car etc.

The hypothetical scenario you outline is highly flawed. A criminal is not going to care about the laws regarding pepper spray or any other weapon for that matter. Cities in America with the most stringent gun laws have the most gun related violence. I also don’t know too many crimes committed with pepper spray but I do know of more than several occasions where a female with pepper spray was able to escape a male attacker. One less victim is always a good thing afaic.

It appears you support laws that strip law abiding citizens of their right and ability to defend themselves. It’s regrettable that people sometimes have to learn the hard way.

 

[Doomanic]

That’s a load of shite; adjusted for population you are 4 times more likely to be murdered in the US than the UK. The right to bear arms is clearly no deterrent.

 

[Norange]

I don’t know of any state where it’s legal to shoot someone for stealing your stuff such as your bike, car etc.

The hypothetical scenario you outline is highly flawed. A criminal is not going to care about the laws regarding pepper spray or any other weapon for that matter. Cities in America with the most stringent gun laws have the most gun related violence. I also don’t know too many crimes committed with pepper spray but I do know of more than several occasions where a female with pepper spray was able to escape a male attacker. One less victim is always a good thing afaic.

It appears you support laws that strip law abiding citizens of their right and ability to defend themselves. It’s regrettable that people sometimes have to learn the hard way.

There are laws allowing you to use deadly force in the US which are specific. You can google them. There are laws allowing you to use proportional force in the UK. So in effect, you can use deadly force if you believe your life is threatened and the court upholds this belief. On balance this is my preference.

I agree that criminals are less likely to be bothered if pepper spray was illegal. I just think that if it was legal to carry without fear of prosecution a criminal is much more likely to use it than you or I.

 

[AlwynM]

I had to check with my insurance as to whether I am covered if I was mugged and luckily I am.

I have thought about this scenario before and have to say that if I was attacked, I could whip off my HipLok and use that to defend myself, as it's pretty heavy. I guess I'd probably get into trouble if the attacker was seriously injured.

 

[Labrador29]

I had to check with my insurance as to whether I am covered if I was mugged and luckily I am.

I have thought about this scenario before and have to say that if I was attacked, I could whip off my HipLok and use that to defend myself, as it's pretty heavy. I guess I'd probably get into trouble if the attacker was seriously injured.

Depends what country you are in. Basically the law in New Zealand gives you same power to defend yourself as a police officer has. That is, you may use as much force as is necessary to overcome the force being used against you. It may be that means you may cause serious injury or death to the attacker if you fear for your life ( or serious injury) Once you have overcome the force being used against you ( say disarmed the offender) the threat to your life has been reduced/removed, therefore you can no longer use excess force.
It is a complicated issue, but if I was ever placed in such a situation again, my life is worth far more than the life of some violent toe-rag who tries to rob/mug me.
I still have faith in the jury system, although better not to temp fate. .

 

[Underblu]

That’s a load of shite; adjusted for population you are 4 times more likely to be murdered in the US than the UK. The right to bear arms is clearly no deterrent.

Your statement is correct but actually validates my point. The rate of gun violence is so great in US states and cities with the most stringent gun laws that it skews the total rate of gun violence for the country overall.

If you removed those stringent gun law states and cities from the equation, the gun violence metrics in the US would be far lower.

Perhaps I’m overly optimistic of the human condition but with rare exception, I can’t imagine any law abiding person wanting to take a life. I would hope a proportional response would always be used regardless of the laws. With that said, emboldening criminals with lax laws and a defenseless population has never worked. It has resulted in spikes in violent crime and the correlating suffering of the innocent .

I hope none of us here will have to face that type of confrontation particularly while we enjoy this wonderful sport

 

[AlwynM]

So, if for instance, I was attacked and the robber was making away on my bike, would I be allowed to pursue him and hit him in order to get my bike back? I think I'd be breaking the law then wouldn't I?

 

[1oldfart]

If the offender is dead without witness you say nothing.
Your lawyer will get you benefit of the doubt.

 

[Coolcmsc]

I guess I'd probably get into trouble if the attacker was seriously injured.

Or if you were… my wife would kill me if I got myself seriously injured in a fight over the sled….? She struggles with my relationship with the beast as it is…?

 

[Coolcmsc]

It may be that means you may cause serious injury or death to the attacker if you fear for your life ( or serious injury)…
I still have faith in the jury system, although better not to temp fate. .

The problem here in the U.K. is that of collecting evidence of who did what and for which reasons. I posted earlier in this thread about what happened to my neighbour who caught the joy rider of his car stoned in the back of said car. The idiot coke-head had driven back to the place he stole the car (probably took a downer) ? … and got a smack for his troubles from my neighbour - someone else had called the police. When the coppers arrived - long story short - it was my neighbour who was arrested. But, fortunately, he was not charged at the station (the joy rider gave a false name and was allowed to leave the scence as the only immediately available evidence was the joy rider with an injury outside the car). My neighbour is in no doubt that if he had seriously injured the joy rider, whatever had happened to the joy rider, he would have had a custodial sentence….PS: my neighbour was a lawyer which is why it wasn’t him who called the police …

 

[Norange]

The problem here in the U.K. is that of collecting evidence of who did what and for which reasons. I posted earlier in this thread about what happened to my neighbour who caught the joy rider of his car stoned in the back of said car. The idiot coke-head had driven back to the place he stole the car (probably took a downer) ? … and got a smack for his troubles from my neighbour - someone else had called the police. When the coppers arrived - long story short - it was my neighbour who was arrested. But, fortunately, he was not charged at the station (the joy rider gave a false name and was allowed to leave the scence as the only immediately available evidence was the joy rider with an injury outside the car). My neighbour is in no doubt that if he had seriously injured the joy rider, whatever had happened to the joy rider, he would have had a custodial sentence….PS: my neighbour was a lawyer which is why it wasn’t him who called the police …

Well, that's the challenge isn't it really? Your neighbour feels that giving someone a smack for stealing his car is just retribution. Most of us would probably agree. Plenty out there feel that giving someone a smack for cutting them up in traffic is just retribution. So I guess we have laws intended to establish the truth of what's happened and to minimise the amount of people who want to dispense their own justice. And would you want to live in a country where physical punishment was a part of the justice system? Seems a bit backwards to me. But there's definitely a paradox - can't say for sure I wouldn't try to kick the shit out of someone who tried to steal my bike. But 100% would not want that as a punishment for theft in law. Maybe that's the individual vs societal difference. Or I'm a hypocrite

 

[steve_sordy]

The problem starts when justice is not seen to be done. When the Police and or the judicial system either don't want to catch the perpetrator, fail to put in the effort to do so, or go easy on them when they have them in custody. That is when the victims start to take justice into their own hands. I'm not talking about massed ranks of Vigilantes holding burning crosses or anything. But it starts small, with a car thief getting a smack, or a person (bike or car) with a video cam recording something they object to and reporting them to the Police. They do that because the Police are absent, or seem to be. But even video evidence does not guarantee a response. They have more important things to do of course.
I have been a long term supporter of the Police, from a child right up until the last few years. Hell, I even considered joining up at one time. I am not anti-Police, just not quite as 100% as I used to be. But whatever the reason is, they seem to be slowly losing public support, certainly from this member of the public.

 

[Labi]

Remapping of electric car engines remotely, is now possible, from what I understand about Tesla's recent innovation. Maybe, in the future, advancements in tech will enable E-bike manufacturers to connect to and disable stolen E-bikes motors, subject to sufficient proofs of ownership etc. being given. That, in addition to tracking devices, might bring some comfort to the inevitably growing number of E-bike crime victims.

 

[Doomanic]

If you removed those stringent gun law states and cities from the equation, the gun violence metrics in the US would be far lower.

Citation needed. If this is as you claim, I'm sure you can provide a link to the research.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Citation needed. If this is as you claim, I'm sure you can provide a link to the research.

Good point @Doomanic ! Here’s some stats.
Headline news is that in the U.K. the gun death rate per year recently is roughly 1% of that in the US (it varies a tiny bit year on year).
So far in the US this year (today 24th August 2021), 28,819 people have died as a result of being shot for whatever reason (Gun Violence Archive).
You sensibly asked for up to date info by US state on current gun deaths statistics — and they do vary by state. But they are still dreadful in the states with the least number of deaths per 100,000 population. I’ll leave @Underblu to inform us which states have the stringent gun law states from the table below. The truth is, which ever they are, it’s still dreadful. I could post info about other countries with equivalently stringent gun laws as some states and also about countries, such as Switzerland, which have the same rates of gun ownership as the US… but they all have death by firearm rates that are a fraction of that in the US.
The reference for the following is Stats of the States - Firearm Mortality

 

[Underblu]

Gun violence and gun mortality are not equivalent.

Gun mortality can include suicide, justified and accidental shootings as well. To put the figures in perspective, Chicago which has strict gun control laws had 2,471 victims of gun violence just this year and the year is not even out!

According to NBC Chicago: “During the first seven months of 2021, there have been 1,973 shootings in the city of Chicago, with 2,471 total victims”. Would you like to put a wager on how many of the guns used in those shootings were purchased legally?

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I believe the right to protect yourself and the lives of your loved ones from possible deadly violence should also reside with the individual and not solely with the state. Otherwise afaic you can kiss life liberty and the pursuit of happiness good bye.

Chicago Gun Violence: 461 Shootings Reported in July, Up 15% From Last Year

According to new statistics released by Chicago police, shootings in the month of July were up 15% over last year, and are up 11% overall in 2021.

www.nbcchicago.com

Good point @Doomanic ! Here’s some stats.
Headline news is that in the U.K. the gun death rate per year recently is roughly 1% of that in the US (it varies a tiny bit year on year).
So far in the US this year (today 24th August 2021), 28,819 people have died as a result of being shot for whatever reason (Gun Violence Archive).
You sensibly asked for up to date info by US state on current gun deaths statistics — and they do vary by state. But they are still dreadful in the states with the least number of deaths per 100,000 population. I’ll leave @Underblu to inform us which states have the stringent gun law states from the table below. The truth is, which ever they are, it’s still dreadful. I could post info about other countries with equivalently stringent gun laws as some states and also about countries, such as Switzerland, which have the same rates of gun ownership as the US… but they all have death by firearm rates that are a fraction of that in the US.
The reference for the following is Gun Violence Archive
View attachment 69773

 

[Coolcmsc]

Gun violence and gun mortality are not equivalent.

Gun mortality can include suicide, justified and accidental shootings as well. To put the figures in perspective, Chicago which has strict gun control laws had 2,471 victims of gun violence just this year and the year is not even out!

According to NBC Chicago: “During the first seven months of 2021, there have been 1,973 shootings in the city of Chicago, with 2,471 total victims”. Would you like to put a wager on how many of the guns used in those shootings were purchased legally?

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I believe the right to protect yourself and the lives of your loved ones from possible deadly violence should also reside with the individual and not solely with the state. Otherwise afaic you can kiss life liberty and the pursuit of happiness good bye.

Chicago Gun Violence: 461 Shootings Reported in July, Up 15% From Last Year

According to new statistics released by Chicago police, shootings in the month of July were up 15% over last year, and are up 11% overall in 2021.

www.nbcchicago.com

I’d be back tomorrow with info that removes suicide by firearm - which, by the way is can be done for all countries that publish the information. However, this is an emtb forum, not a firearms one…
But the headline is firstly that you are correct, the US has an exceptionally high suicide by firearm rate and it’s unclear why that somehow helps your case (why is that true? is a clue). And secondly, when firearms deaths by suicide are removed, the case is still made concerning the effect of firearms control laws.
Have a look at the actual data - it’s all in my two references — and you’ll see the sums removing death by firearm suicide have already been done to help ?

 

[1oldfart]

Why talk about details?
Laws are made for the rich who will have more, better lawers and stay out of jail, whatever.
They use 25 years of stalling than it just drops.
You dress well, steal 50 Billions you get 2 years, you are out after 11 months.
Or you steal 50$ and . . . . .
In the USA it makes no sense having military grade arms, unlimited . . .
Dropping bombs every year on dozen of countries,
wasting trillion$$$$ to make ennemies . . .
Saying i am prolife and progun = should not vote, does not use their brain,
pick one, they are not compatible.

 

[Labrador29]

The problem starts when justice is not seen to be done. When the Police and or the judicial system either don't want to catch the perpetrator, fail to put in the effort to do so, or go easy on them when they have them in custody. That is when the victims start to take justice into their own hands. I'm not talking about massed ranks of Vigilantes holding burning crosses or anything. But it starts small, with a car thief getting a smack, or a person (bike or car) with a video cam recording something they object to and reporting them to the Police. They do that because the Police are absent, or seem to be. But even video evidence does not guarantee a response. They have more important things to do of course.
I have been a long term supporter of the Police, from a child right up until the last few years. Hell, I even considered joining up at one time. I am not anti-Police, just not quite as 100% as I used to be. But whatever the reason is, they seem to be slowly losing public support, certainly from this member of the public.

I like your comments Steve. That was a well used saying: " Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done". Another drummed in to us at Police College: " It is better a thousand guilty men go free, than one innocent man be convicted". Agree 100%
I retired in 25 years ago after twenty years on the frontline. Heck, we even walked the Beat back then! Loved the Beat and the public. Today for some reason, things have changed. One young cop refused to get out of the patrol car because he might get injured at this particular incident. Some new breed coppers don't want to work after sunset!! Others don't want to work weekends!!! Part of the problem is government interference. e.g. 50% of recruits to be female. I could go on but some would accuse me of being racist and I don't to go there. I am far from a racist, but I don't like seeing recruiting standards lowered to allow far more ethnicity. I have strayed far from the original topic, so I will go and crawl back into my cave.

 

[blueglide]

I like your comments Steve. That was a well used saying: " Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done". Another drummed in to us at Police College: " It is better a thousand guilty men go free, than one innocent man be convicted". Agree 100%
I retired in 25 years ago after twenty years on the frontline. Heck, we even walked the Beat back then! Loved the Beat and the public. Today for some reason, things have changed. One young cop refused to get out of the patrol car because he might get injured at this particular incident. Some new breed coppers don't want to work after sunset!! Others don't want to work weekends!!! Part of the problem is government interference. e.g. 50% of recruits to be female. I could go on but some would accuse me of being racist and I don't to go there. I am far from a racist, but I don't like seeing recruiting standards lowered to allow far more ethnicity. I have strayed far from the original topic, so I will go and crawl back into my cave.

I retired 11 years ago after 30 years in law enforcement. Nice to hear from a fellow LEO. I'll never forget my first LEO job in Oklahoma. We had a fellow join our department who had been a cop in London. His name was Chris and he was quite a character....nice guy. I always found his British accent and observations on American Life entertaining. His wife never was totally comfortable with her husband carrying a firearm on duty. ?

 

[AlwynM]

If I moved to a place where carrying a firearm was normal then I'd probably feel pressured to own one myself, but really, I'd rather live in a place where they weren't required.

 

[LowStandards]

145 replies in this thread

We've gone from, be careful I got my bike taken, to the internet heroes who will kill a group of attackers using nothing but a chain link and their impressive skills learnt on the streets to the classic subject 'America is a shitshow, but they wont admit it'

 

[Doomanic]

'America is a shitshow, but they wont admit it'

Possibly the most concise summation of the situation in America in the history of ever!

 

[AlwynM]

Remapping of electric car engines remotely, is now possible, from what I understand about Tesla's recent innovation. Maybe, in the future, advancements in tech will enable E-bike manufacturers to connect to and disable stolen E-bikes motors, subject to sufficient proofs of ownership etc. being given. That, in addition to tracking devices, might bring some comfort to the inevitably growing number of E-bike crime victims.

I really don't think it's that difficult.

If we can adjust the assistance using just the Mission Control app, then why can't it also be configured to increase the resistance gradually up to 90% once the TCU and app are out of range? This would make the bike unrideable to any would-be thief.

 

[Jackware]

I really don't think it's that difficult.

If we can adjust the assistance using just the Mission Control app, then why can't it also be configured to increase the resistance gradually up to 90% once the TCU and app are out of range? This would make the bike unrideable to any would-be thief.

It's in the back of their van by then

 

[AlwynM]

It's in the back of their van by then

Well, considering the original poster's mugging took place on a trail, there might not have been a van involved, but I get your point.

It just seems that some anti-theft set-up is possible with just a software update.

 

[blueglide]

145 replies in this thread

We've gone from, be careful I got my bike taken, to the internet heroes who will kill a group of attackers using nothing but a chain link and their impressive skills learnt on the streets to the classic subject 'America is a shitshow, but they wont admit it'

Possibly the most concise summation of the situation in America in the history of ever!

It's really sad that conversations can't remain civil despite our cultural or generational differences. While I have various opinions of the goings on in the EU and Great Britain I'm not ignorant enough to insult an entire country such as England which I have neither visited nor understand as a 'shitshow'. If that's what you really believe about America it's quite unfortunate to live so misinformed.

 

[LowStandards]

America is a shitshow, end of!

The UK is an embarrassment, but at least we don't get a hard on over weapons, or patriotism...

...nationalism on the other hand ??‍

 

[Underblu]

America is a shitshow, end of!

The UK is an embarrassment, but at least we don't get a hard on over weapons, or patriotism...

...nationalism on the other hand ??‍

With all the countries in the world that have a range of problems form genocide to other great human rights abuses, you mock two of the greatest Western democracies that have advanced the cause of individual liberty and the upward swing of mankind in the 20th century. Two countries that were instrumental in ending the brutal tyranny and oppression of fascism and communism.

What do you get a hard on for: Wokeism and Critical Race theory? Btw, the only other significant modern party in the history of mankind that supported teaching race theory in grade school was the Nazi Party.

Hopefully we can get back to the topic at hand rather than indulging in snarky, grossly stereotypical comments. Perhaps we might even learn some ways to reduce our chances of being victimized while on our bikes

 

[RustyMTB]

I wouldn't necessarily punt the UK in the shitshow stakes. We're well on the way with thanks to the Kippy w*****rs.