Just say no to integrated batteries

[Zimmerframe]

Yea, you are 100% right. The trouble is the majorty of people are still buying bikes based on looks, and most people think integrated batteries look better. Manufacturers are having a hard time selling bikes with external batteries anymore.

People are shallow ... especially when they're spending a lot of money, they like to visually enjoy the thing they're purchasing. External battery bikes will be cheaper as they use more off the shelf components so development costs will be less. This isn't a bad thing, it gives people a wider choice. There are still lots of bike out there which are external, so you can't complain that they're aren't any. Some are great performers too, Canyon, Thok, Vitus. You pays your money, you make your choice.

There are other additional downsides to Integrated batteries too, such as more expensive and complicated construction, problems with heat dissipation, and basically that you have to scale up the rest of the bike to avoid it looking like a snake that swallowed a pig, so weight ends up increasing everywhere.

I don't think this is strictly true. I rode flat out on Turbo for half an hour on my Kenevo the other day and the battery temperature didn't go above 30c.

As for the snake and weight scenario. Do you really think a Levo looks like it swallowed a pig ? By making the battery fully integrated they could use the downtube as a "tube" so it's strong and hold the battery, so the weight is lower. It's not about internal battery is a heavier bike, it's about just putting more thought/effort/time/cost into the design and designing and building battery's which work effectively and efficiently with the design of the bike, both from a performance and visual perspective.

 

[eebit]

People are shallow ... especially when they're spending a lot of money, they like to visually enjoy the thing they're purchasing. External battery bikes will be cheaper as they use more off the shelf components so development costs will be less. This isn't a bad thing, it gives people a wider choice. There are still lots of bike out there which are external, so you can't complain that they're aren't any. Some are great performers too, Canyon, Thok, Vitus. You pays your money, you make your choice.



I don't think this is strictly true. I rode flat out on Turbo for half an hour on my Kenevo the other day and the battery temperature didn't go above 30c.

As for the snake and weight scenario. Do you really think a Levo looks like it swallowed a pig ? By making the battery fully integrated they could use the downtube as a "tube" so it's strong and hold the battery, so the weight is lower. It's not about internal battery is a heavier bike, it's about just putting more thought/effort/time/cost into the design and designing and building battery's which work effectively and efficiently with the design of the bike, both from a performance and visual perspective.

Specialized did a great job with the levo, but they also developed their own battery which is expensive and time consuming. I was thinking more of the Intense and older Scott intube models.

When you wrap the whole top of the motor in a big battery tube it makes it harder for the heat to leave. Specialized made a big hole for the heat to leave from, but unfortunately on many bikes it just filled with dirt and debris causing motor failure. I know they have fixed this now, but as motors get smaller and more powerful there is simply more heat generated, but a smaller surface area for it to leave from, and having bigger tubes for bigger batteries doesnt help. This is actually one reason why the new Haibike Bosch AllMtn and Orbea are really good, the open area around the motors mean they wont have overheating issues.

 

[knut7]

Up untill about 2018 I was just as happy riding an emtb with external battery as one with integrated. Many of the emtbs running integrated had soo massive downtubes, it didn't really look much better.

But things have changed, internal betteries are becoming slimmer and the new integrated bikes look much more inconspicious and much less agressive. And I'm slowly coming around to accepting a slight weight/price increase to get an internal battery bike.

Regarding COG, I don't believe external battery design has lower COG for all emtbs. Compare the 2019 Merida e160 to the 2020, by putting the battery inside the downtube you have actually lowered the weight. And the BT8035 vinternal battery isn't that much longer than the external BT8010.

 

[DrStupid]

My external shimano batteries are pounds lighter the the integrated batteries on my other bikes. I might be an odd ball, but I couldn't care less what it looks like.

The most important thing to me is serviceability, replacement parts, and updates, and I think an off the shelf shimano battery will still available in 10 years, where I doubt very much half of these boutique bike brands will even be around in 10 years.

I did my part and bought one of each, no bias here.

 

[knut7]

The BT8035 will be as standard, off the shelf as the BT8010, same for the Bosch 625. But yeah, there are a few more proprietary integrated batteries. For Shimano there isn't necessarily much weight difference, the BT8035 is a few 100 grs heavier, but the mounting hardware can be done lighter, without the Abus lock.

 

[MattyB]

People are shallow ... especially when they're spending a lot of money, they like to visually enjoy the thing they're purchasing. External battery bikes will be cheaper as they use more off the shelf components so development costs will be less. This isn't a bad thing, it gives people a wider choice. There are still lots of bike out there which are external, so you can't complain that they're aren't any. Some are great performers too, Canyon, Thok, Vitus. You pays your money, you make your choice.

True, but the number of new designs coming out with an external battery is tiny - that Lapierre I think is the only 2020 model that has one. Those of us who like external batteries (I am one) can kick and scream, but the focus groups and sales figures for internal battery bikes are what the manufacturers go on. I'm pretty sure that will mean there will no new bikes being announced with an external battery within a few years.

 

[DrStupid]

The BT8035 will be as standard, off the shelf as the BT8010, same for the Bosch 625. But yeah, there are a few more proprietary integrated batteries. For Shimano there isn't necessarily much weight difference, the BT8035 is a few 100 grs heavier, but the mounting hardware can be done lighter, without the Abus lock.

I'm happy with both options and own bikes with both batteries. An off the shelf battery, that integrates, is OK by me and I will buy.

The ones that scare me are proprietary. The ones that scare me away, are proprietary and boutique.

 

[Zimmerframe]

True, but the number of new designs coming out with an external battery is tiny - that Lapierre I think is the only 2020 model that has one. Those of us who like external batteries (I am one) can kick and scream

I don't have any preference either way. For me, the battery on the 1.2/1.3 Kenevo is "external". You pull out a bolt and it drops into your hands, there's no removing motors or anything. It's as quick as removing my e8000 battery. One side of the battery is the outside of the bike - it's no different to a thok, except the frame surrounds the battery more.

The internal battery's should in theory be lighter, they don't need the extra protection an external battery needs and as @knut7 mentioned, if designed correctly, they don't need any additional mounting hardware.

A levo battery is just undo a screw/bolt thingmibob and the battery slides out.

In time there's no reason why third party companies won't start making "copies" as they're user changeable.

For me, I don't really see any difference if the battery is clipped into the frame, slides into the frame or clips onto the frame. They're all easily removable in seconds, can all be changed by the user. How it's "held" in place is just down the the route the design team is taking and what limitations have been placed on them. I'd see more the discussion as user removable batteries or none removable batteries as the only really relevant point ?

It's amazing the extent I'll goto to get out of cutting a hedge ...

 

[grantini]

I recognize that this thread will not be complete until I contribute my totally biased and uninformed opinion. I agree that the "look" test is important, not just because my Levo looks cool, which it does, but it looks "natural." When I see an externally mounted it just looks wrong. If I had that I would never be happy. I'm shallow and focused on unimportant things like looks. I will also say that, riding in a mixed use environment daily, it is nice that the equestrians, hikers, and bird watchers I encounter, and sometimes stop to chat with, have no idea I'm using an ebike. Ebikes are legal on our trails, but there is no need to ruffle feathers. In the early days of MTB'ing in our area, we had a LOT of push back from the birdwatchers, who had theretofore, been the ONLY regular users of the area. It took a long time to get them to accept and even embrace us. There is always some jerk who wants to start trouble, and there is no need to make it easier for him to do so. Did I mention how cool my Levo looks?

 

[steve_sordy]

There was a time when car engines were mounted on to a sturdy frame, Then the body was bolted on too. Years later, some bright spark decided to make the body and the engine structural components and lo and behold we had the modern car that was lighter and stiffer and cheaper to run. We have got past the early emtbs where the battery and motors looked as though they were just bolted on to a slightly beefed up ordinary bike. But have they gone as far as they can? Nowhere near, I suspect.

 

[grantini]

It's worth noting that this is my second Ebike, and I also have a matching Stumpjumper... My wife STILL doesn't know I have an ebike....

 

[grantini]

There was a time when car engines were mounted on to a sturdy frame, Then the body was bolted on too. Yers later, some bright spark decided to make the body and the engine structural components and lo and behold we had the modern car that was lighter and stiffer and cheaper to run. We have got past the early emtbs where the battery and motors looked as though they were just bolted on to a slightly beefed up ordinary bike. But have they gone as far as they can? Nowhere near, I suspect.

I agree, I think putting the battery inside the frame on my 20 Levo, makes it lighter and stronger than the externally mounted, but integrated battery on my 18. I DID like the ability to pull the battery and easily and neatly run cable on the 18, that was the real advantage of the old set up. Having said that the 19 Levos were the FIRST with internal batteries, the previous generation looked internal but was in fact integrated, so I guess it's possible to have the looks without the internal. The downtube though on my 20 is smaller and less noticable than my 18, even though I have significantly more WH in the power source.

 

[grantini]

In all seriousness, I agree that the technology and design will continue to advance at a pace that is relatively breakneck. The desire to increase range and battery life in electric cars, while reducing weight, will benefit the Ebike industry. There is a LOT of research and development banging away around the world. Were it not for that I doubt that the (relatively tiny) bicycle industry would have been able to develop such awesome bikes in such a short time.

 

[Gary]

One of Frances strangest rules is that you have to, by law, wear budgie smugglers if you go in a public swimming pool ! This obviously puts a lot of people off. I have a friend who's somewhere in the 150kg + range .. (his nickname is "the twins") They wouldn't make any exceptions. What sick puppy came up with that rule !

Try turning up to a public swimming pool in France for the first time with your French GF, 3 kids and your UK spec swimming shorts and you're given the pool's communal budgie smugglers and swimming cap to wear.

I've no idea how I came to find this out

what got me was their reason for this rule is HYGEINE... this from a country that doesn't have a sink in the same room as most toilets. and some of those are just a hole on the fucking floor

 

[Gary]

ALL Emtbs are Fugly. anyone who can't see this is deluded.
Ride 'em well and they ALL start to look better

 

[grantini]

ALL Emtbs are Fugly. anyone who can't see this is deluded.
Ride 'em well and they ALL start to look better

I think mine is beautiful.... LOL

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Hmmm, I’m gonna start a new thread and call it “say no to tubeless tyres.” Then I’ll grab three packets of popcorn, a cold drink and recline my lazyboy chair and watch a stunning fireworks display.

 

[Zimmerframe]

given the pool's communal budgie smugglers and swimming cap to wear.

How long was it before someone Pointed out that you weren't supposed to squeeze your tackle in the little rubber sack and the other part wasn't a hat with ear holes ?

 

[MitchF]

I actually like the intergration of the Battery in my Levo. It means I can stash things in its gash. Tucked up in the top tube above the battery I have tyre levers and a spare tube, as well as a few zip ties, incase I have to tie my shoes to my pedals like @Zimmerframe does ?

You “stash things in your gash” ??????

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

You “stash things in your gash” ??????

Crumbs... how are you gonna unsee what you just saw?

 

[Swissrider]

One thing no one has mentioned so far is the length of integrated batteries compared to external ones. Because my wife has a 2018 Levo I can borrow her battery which fits my 2018 Kenevo, (to give me an enormous range), but it’s so long it only just fits into a backpack and the 2019 battery is even longer. By contrast, my Bosch powered KTM has a much more compact battery which easily fits in any backpack. Furthermore, this battery takes a couple of seconds to remove, needs a key so it can’t get nicked and doesn’t get covered in mud. It is superior in every way to the Kenevo system, which has its plug exactly where mud and water are thrown up. As for aesthetics, there were loads of different makes of EMTB at this recent bike test I went to and they look like clones - all of them have batteries in the down tube and some of those down tubes look like a massive girder - pig ugly. The best of them is probably the Levo but in order to slim the down tube the battery has got longer and must have raised the C of G. Why do we want EMTBs to look like analogue bikes anyway? Can’t they wear their batteries proudly and not pretend to be something they are not. There is no need to be ashamed of one’s ebike!

 

[Gary]

has anyone ever had the battery nicked from their Emtb?

 

[Russell]

I prefer external batteries as it's so easy to carry a spare and change mid ride , doubling your range.
If you are willing to sacrifice that , have more water/ mud ingress issues and don't mind paying a premium when it's battery replacement time, go integrated

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

has anyone ever had the battery nicked from their Emtb?

You read my mind as I was reading the post above.

I hate lockable batteries. Key locks on sides of bikes look crap. I lose keys. Forget where I’ve put them and they are just an all round hassle to me.

 

[MattyB]

Listen to Zammo guys....

(Apologies if this one goes over your head - you have to have grown up in the UK in the 80s...)

 

[MitchF]

Zammo ?????

 

[grantini]

I prefer external batteries as it's so easy to carry a spare and change mid ride , doubling your range.
If you are willing to sacrifice that , have more water/ mud ingress issues and don't mind paying a premium when it's battery replacement time, go integrated

Geez, don't think I can out ride my 700WH battery! LOL

 

[Fivetones]

As for aesthetics, there were loads of different makes of EMTB at this recent bike test I went to and they look like clones - all of them have batteries in the down tube and some of those down tubes look like a massive girder - pig ugly. The best of them is probably the Levo but in order to slim the down tube the battery has got longer and must have raised the C of G. Why do we want EMTBs to look like analogue bikes anyway? Can’t they wear their batteries proudly and not pretend to be something they are not.

I have one of those bikes that some think is pig ugly (Shimano BT-E8020 contained - Orange Surge). I bloody love how it looks and, more importantly for me, how it rides. There’s no mistaking it’s an eMTB!

 

[Eddy Current]

A full carbon ebike, frame, wheels, etc , non integrated battery= Low sub20 easily and way cheaper than S works Shuttle etc

 

[Gary]

What?