Is the Lightweight low powered market about to kick off ?

[Gary]

I would like to see some evidence of this.

You won't find any. He was talking out his arse.
with equivalent spec an mtb is £2-3k less expensive than an emtb so far less are manufactured. nevermind sold
This forum really doesn't represent the typical cross section of the average mtb consumer's budget

 

[Waynemarlow]

While trying not to derail this thread, when you mention that "adult EBikes outsell the equivalent analogues", I would like to see some evidence of this. Are you referring to ALL EBikes (road, commuter, emtb, etc) vs all analogue bikes? My LBS(s) and mountains would not agree for various reasons including cost, availability and intended purpose (re: fitness).

I'm not fully sure on the UK but Germany is pushing the equal basis and the Netherlands have been selling more E's for a few years now

E-Bikes Outselling Conventional Bikes, Netherlands.

E-Bikes are now outselling conventional cycles in the Netherlands, and in 2018, sales of electric bikes were far greater than an ordinary bicycle.

www.onbike.co.uk

E-bike sales in Germany
E-bike sales grew again in the first half of 2021. The two-wheel industry association estimates that 1.2 million vehicles were sold in the first half of 2021. That is an increase of 9.1%.


The German Bicycle market by sales
With 1.55 million bicycles without pedal assistance, significantly fewer vehicles in this category were sold than in the same period of the previous year (-26%).

German bicycle market rides storm of supply in H1, but H2 may be rougher

The German bicycle market has smoothly ridden headwinds on supply of raw materials and components in the first half of 2021.

cyclingindustry.news

My friend who works in our local Trek shop is adament that only the lack of supply of Ebikes is stopping them overhauling the analogues sales if only adult bikes are taken in consideration.

I also appreciate the exercise of the climb but still mostly hate it.

Now there I differ, I like the climbs, both EBikes I have now mean I explore a much greater range from my house, the greater range gives a much wider area to find some truely great long and sometimes technical uphills, best part of the ride for me.

 

[Gary]

You do realise Emtbs will make up just a tiny portion of the Ebike sales you're quoting in Germany and the Netherlands? and neither article you've linked mentions "equivalent" bikes at all. In the Netherlands the bulk of Ebike sales are more likely along the lines of this sort of thing than the sort of Emtbs discussed here... Sales in Germany won't be too dissimilar

Can we get back to discussing lightweight EMtbs

ATM roadbikes and mtbs still vastly outsell Emtbs here. (as in throughout the UK rather than a few select shops in Buckinghamshire or Surrey) And sorry to burst your bubble but an employee of a TREK shop situated in an affluent part of the country's view of sales isn't going to be anywhere close to representative of the cross section of all bike sales throughout UK.

 

[KnollyBro]

Now there I differ, I like the climbs, both EBikes I have now mean I explore a much greater range from my house, the greater range gives a much wider area to find some truely great long and sometimes technical uphills, best part of the ride for me.

Haha... its nice we can agree on something (people ride bike for different reasons)! Where do you live (Bucks? It doesn't show up on Google maps)? Even in Squamish, we have to drive to the trail head (well, most people do as it is half way up the mountain) and if we want to explore other areas they are anywhere from 1 to 6 hours away, so we are used to driving. BC is pretty BIG (the UK could almost fit into BC 4 times)!

 

[Waynemarlow]

ATM roadbikes and mtbs still vastly outsell Emtbs here. (as in throughout the UK rather than a few select shops in Buckinghamshire or Surrey) And sorry to burst your bubble but an employee of a TREK shop situated in an affluent part of the country's view of sales isn't going to be anywhere close to representative of the cross section of all bike sales throughout UK.

Gary why deviate from a threads topic so much that you derail every thread you participate in ? You highlighted my desire to get back to discussing lightweights and yet immediately go off thread first to say roadbikes and Mtb s outsell EMtbs then immediately launch into a whinge that everyone is rich in Bucks and Surrey and is totally unrepresentative. There was no reference to any part of lightweight discussion there and probably not a lot of fact considering the South has some of the most deprived areas in the country.

Again, can we get back to discuss lightweights or do we just wind it up as yet another Gary ferked up thread.

 

[head]

I also appreciate the exercise of the climb but still mostly hate it.

My man!!!

 

[Kilham5]

IS THE LIGHTWEIGHT LOW POWERED MARKET ABOUT TO KICK OFF ?

NO... Of course it's not, it will continue to exist, but will remain at the niche end of the eMTB niche.
The more slices you split the cake into, the narrower and more niche each slice gets. Hardly a scenario to "kick off"

Motor assistance is only ever going to be driven at the full fat / less effort / lazy-b end of the market... reflecting where the market (and society) is !
The market for a lighter, less powerful niche is only ever going to diminish relative to the rider effort required.
Diminishing to nothing, where a cyclist genuinely concerned about weight and performance, does not require a motor and battery.

 

[Gary]

Exactly that ^^

 

[Gary]

Gary why deviate from a threads topic so much that you derail every thread you participate in ? You highlighted my desire to get back to discussing lightweights and yet immediately go off thread first to say roadbikes and Mtb s outsell EMtbs then immediately launch into a whinge that everyone is rich in Bucks and Surrey and is totally unrepresentative.

Serious question? Do you struggle with English comprehension?
It was YOU who brought up Ebikes outselling equivalent normal bikes. Using the word "equivalent" to try and show Emtbs outselling normal mtbs. Which is completely false and hugely misleading.
I also didn't make any reference to "everyone" in the two counties I used as an example of affluent parts of the country. Nevermind Pigeonhole the entire South.
I also wasn't whingeing at all. Simply stating facts. Unlike you who seems to think every thought you have is correct and needs to be shared even when they're based on no actual facts and bolstered with purely made up statements.

probably not a lot of fact considering the South has some of the most deprived areas in the country.

"probably"?
Do yourself a favour and educate yourself on the country you refer to. Its a whole lot larger and more diverse than your limited view paints it.

Now I'll piss off and allow you to continue your discussion on the lightweight EMTB market. So long as you do so without making shit up.
But TBH Kilham has just summed up the answers you were looking for fairly accurately and sussinctly a couple of replies back. .

 

[Alexbn921]

IS THE LIGHTWEIGHT LOW POWERED MARKET ABOUT TO KICK OFF ?

NO... Of course it's not, it will continue to exist, but will remain at the niche end of the eMTB niche.
The more slices you split the cake into, the narrower and more niche each slice gets. Hardly a scenario to "kick off"

Motor assistance is only ever going to be driven at the full fat / less effort / lazy-b end of the market... reflecting where the market (and society) is !
The market for a lighter, less powerful niche is only ever going to diminish relative to the rider effort required.
Diminishing to nothing, where a cyclist genuinely concerned about weight and performance, does not require a motor and battery.

This!

 

[Waynemarlow]

Now I'll piss off and allow you to continue your discussion on the lightweight EMTB market.

Phew, never thought you would be so courteous to allow us to do so.

OK I'm going to wind this thread up if thats OK, Kilham5 seems to have reached a point where the general census is that most would agree and Gary has scared off the remainder.

 

[Kilham5]

On the contrary, Gary rarely does anything other than state the bleeding obvious.
What is an interweb forum for, but for keyboard warriors to continually debate the minutiae of ever narrowing niches?

But hey, why stop there? lets widen the debate to.

Is a gravel bike merely a road bike with tyre clearance or an XC hardtail with drop bars ?

Does it have a motor ? No ? Does anyone ride them anymore? surely not...

What do you wear riding a gravel bike, lycra or baggies.?
Maybe there is a niche for gravel specific clothing... oh hang on....

 

[Tubby G]

On the contrary, Gary rarely does anything other than state the bleeding obvious.
What is an interweb forum for, but for keyboard warriors to continually debate the minutiae of ever narrowing niches?
Create division and angst between each narrow minded minority, that believes their religion is the one true religion.

But hey, why stop there? lets widen the debate to.

Is a gravel bike merely a road bike with tyre clearance or an XC hardtail with drop bars ?

Does it have a motor ? No ? Does anyone ride them anymore? surely not...

On our recent trip to Llandegla, we met with an old friend who’s a keen gravel / cyclocross / XC rider

He turned up on his Orbea Alma M-team, which weighs in at around 10kg. He picked up my Rise and his first remark was ‘Jeez that’s heavy, thought these were meant to be lightweight bikes’. He then teared up the initial climb, with me puffing and panting trying to keep up (on an EBike)

Back at the cafe later, I asked him why he’s not riding his Alma more often as his gravel bike is his preferred weapon of choice. He simply stated he finds his mountain bike (10kg!!) too heavy

 

[Growmac]

I apologise in advance for trying to actually get back to the original question, but my two pence.

I think the market for light ebikes will grow, but not explode. I'm 46, have been mountain biking since I was 12, and currently have my ebike firmly as my (much loved) second bike. Right now, my Enduro is my main bike, and my fitness is such that I don't 'need' an ebike, I'm probably fitter than I have been since I was 30, I just want one.

In 10 years time my regular Enduro bike may well be replaced by a lightweight ebike. It would allow me to keep riding, and to keep up with my younger, faster mates, while still doing an impression of being 'just' a normal bike'. I, perhaps mistakenly, see them as a fitness enhancer rather than the full fat experience I have on my Rail. I have no use for that right now, but I think that will change, and I think there's probably a large number of ageing bikers that may find the same in the next few years.

 

[NorthernBloke]

As an owner of a Rise, I expect there to be more and more lighter weight options coming onto the market.
These imo will target the XC buyer who want a lighter perhaps more hybrid type experience akin to what they get now . The top of range Rise is more XC than enduro with fox 34, rekon tyres and carbon wheels. It's target weight of 16kg has set a standard.
Range extenders and interchangeable batteries to me make more sense than sticking a massive battery in a lighter bike. This allows the user to extend their range when they want but keep the bike as light as possible.
I don't have a range extender but I don't need one for 90% of my riding (<40km, 1000m ascent) and I can if I choose pedal it without motor assistance albeit easier at the start of a ride than as the end.
Like top of the range XC bikes I expect these bikes, like the Rise and Spec SL will be very expensive to purchase with their more exotic materials and high end components.

 

[KnollyBro]

On our recent trip to Llandegla, we met with an old friend who’s a keen gravel / cyclocross / XC rider

He turned up on his Orbea Alma M-team, which weighs in at around 10kg. He picked up my Rise and his first remark was ‘Jeez that’s heavy, thought these were meant to be lightweight bikes’. He then teared up the initial climb, with me puffing and panting trying to keep up (on an EBike)

Back at the cafe later, I asked him why he’s not riding his Alma more often as his gravel bike is his preferred weapon of choice. He simply stated he finds his mountain bike (10kg!!) too heavy

I find it facinating that when riders talk about THEIR bike of choice that they tend not to give examples of the trails they ride (or take for granted that the trails they ride, which are rated BLUE or BLACK are the same everywhere in the world). In Tubby G's post he relates his personal experience with a "keen gravel / cyclocross / XC rider" and wondered why this person was not riding his mountain bike much ("too heavy" for the type of riding he enjoys). A quick Google search revealed this Bike Center for Llandegla. As I have never been there, I can only take what the rider states at face value as to the type of trails the location has to offer ranging from Green to Black. The choice for which type of bike which is best suited for this area is up to the rider's goals and level of fitness.


Yesterday, my wife and I rode 5 Black trails in our area which took us under 3 hours to do 20 km with an elevation gain of close to 800m. We were both on SLs. We both finished with 50% battery left. All but the second trail we have ridden many times before. The second trail was very challenging as we have only ridden it a couple of times, several years ago. I am sure a younger (I am 60), fitter and more skilled rider could have completed the same trails in a faster time on a lighter analogue bike. I doubt an older, less fit or less skilled rider could have completed the same trails on a FF bike in less time. In the end, there are too many variables to consider. We should all just be happy being able to get out there and ride what we have, at the level we are at, where we are! Our SLs keep us riding the trails we like to ride. I hope they last us for years to come. YMMV.

For anyone who is intereted, this is the Black trail that challenged us to our limits, ridden by a younger, fitter and MUCH more skilled rider on an analogue bike. Miranda would does NOT need an Ebike at her age (32).

 

[Tubby G]

I find it facinating that when riders talk about THEIR bike of choice that they tend not to give examples of the trails they ride (or take for granted that the trails they ride, which are rated BLUE or BLACK are the same everywhere in the world). In Tubby G's post he relates his personal experience with a "keen gravel / cyclocross / XC rider" and wondered why this person was not riding his mountain bike much ("too heavy" for the type of riding he enjoys). A quick Google search revealed this Bike Center for Llandegla. As I have never been there, I can only take what the rider states at face value as to the type of trails the location has to offer ranging from Green to Black. The choice for which type of bike which is best suited for this area is up to the rider's goals and level of fitness.


Yesterday, my wife and I rode 5 Black trails in our area which took us under 3 hours to do 20 km with an elevation gain of close to 800m. We were both on SLs. We both finished with 50% battery left. All but the second trail we have ridden many times before. The second trail was very challenging as we have only ridden it a couple of times, several years ago. I am sure a younger (I am 60), fitter and more skilled rider could have completed the same trails in a faster time on a lighter analogue bike. I doubt an older, less fit or less skilled rider could have completed the same trails on a FF bike in less time. In the end, there are too many variables to consider. We should all just be happy being able to get out there and ride what we have, at the level we are at, where we are! Our SLs keep us riding the trails we like to ride. I hope they last us for years to come. YMMV.

For anyone who is intereted, this is the Black trail that challenged us to our limits, ridden by a younger, fitter and MUCH more skilled rider on an analogue bike. Miranda would does NOT need an Ebike at her age (32).

the trails at Llandegla are all man made and could easily be ridden on a gravel bike, except perhaps a few of the black jump lines. The day we met with my mate, the red & blacks were closed due to an enduro event taking place, so we just cruised the blue, which suited my pal as he hadn’t been on his MTB for quite a few years

the trail grading system in the uk is a bit of a nonsense and inconsistent. Llandegla is a good example, theres nothing really difficult there at all, so why some are graded black is very questionable. The red route is more of a blue, the blue is just a fast winding ‘path’ with a few rollers thrown in for good measure

Trail centres are ok for winter riding due to their all weather well drained surfaces, but the rest of the year I guess most people are riding unsanctioned / natural / off piste trails which aren’t graded

 

[KnollyBro]

the trail grading system in the uk is a bit of a nonsense and inconsistent. Llandegla is a good example, theres nothing really difficult there at all, so why some are graded black is very questionable. The red route is more of a blue, the blue is just a fast winding ‘path’ with a few rollers thrown in for good measure

I think the Trail grading system is a little weak all over the world! In Canada and on Trail Forks, RED trails are what we call Double Black (so as not to get confused visually with Black trails) and Pro Line are Orange! It would be so much better to use the Mountain Climbing rating system of 5.1 - 5.14 etc.

the trails at Llandegla are all man made and could easily be ridden on a gravel bike, except perhaps a few of the black jump lines. The day we met with my mate, the red & blacks were closed due to an enduro event taking place, so we just cruised the blue, which suited my pal as he hadn’t been on his MTB for quite a few years

As for machine made trails in a Bike Park, if you have enough skill, you can ride a Double Black jump trail on a road bike!

 

[Gary]

@Tubby G The first colour graded trails in the UK were all located within the new (at the time) trailcentres. mainly in Scotland and Wales and built in the late 90s when there was more of a split between DH and XC in mountainbiking. Trail centres back then catered to the latter rather than the former and tended to follow forest loops rather than the multiple trails you find now. Of course back then we had plenty DH tracks but none were graded at all. and many locations weren't actually common knowledge outside the DH scene. The original trail centre grading system had a fairly fixed remit.
Blue = easy/beginner. - a smoother and shorter trail route with no real challenging obsticles.
Red = intermediate - medium length with a few more natural features and obsticles but no manditory or unrollable features.
Black = Longer more challenging trails with a more natural feel and some technical trail obsticles.
Glentress was a good example of this... with the original blue trail being a suitable route for families and even kiddy trailers, the Red being faster and more fun with chutes (rollable) jumps and berms. and the Black being a far longer more natural feeling trail with terrain to test your fitness and (XC) skills.
Later on Green and orange graded trails were implemented. Green being properly family/beginner level and Orange being DH/jump/freeride
Fast forward a few years and the trail centre grading system throughout the UK was all over the place with inconsistency.
and now that we have Bike Parks their grading system is completely out of line with the grading system of old.

Personally I've always completely ignored mtb colour grading and just enjoyed the riding regardless whether it's an easy and smooth or gnar to the power of sick.

Llandegla was one of Wales' first trail centres after CYB wasn't it?

 

[Gary]

The real question now...

"Thread derailment! Is Wayne about to kick off?"

 

[Tubby G]

@Tubby G The first colour graded trails in the UK were all located within the new (at the time) trailcentres. mainly in Scotland and Wales and built in the late 90s when there was more of a split between DH and XC in mountainbiking. Trail centres back then catered to the latter rather than the former and tended to follow forest loops rather than the multiple trails you find now. Of course back then we had plenty DH tracks but none were graded at all. and many locations weren't actually common knowledge outside the DH scene. The original trail centre grading system had a fairly fixed remit.
Blue = easy/beginner. - a smoother and shorter trail route with no real challenging obsticles.
Red = intermediate - medium length with a few more natural features and obsticles but no manditory or unrollable features.
Black = Longer more challenging trails with a more natural feel and some technical trail obsticles.
Glentress was a good example of this... with the original blue trail being a suitable route for families and even kiddy trailers, the Red being faster and more fun with chutes (rollable) jumps and berms. and the Black being a far longer more natural feeling trail with terrain to test your fitness and (XC) skills.
Later on Green and orange graded trails were implemented. Green being properly family/beginner level and Orange being DH/jump/freeride
Fast forward a few years and the trail centre grading system throughout the UK was all over the place with inconsistency.
and now that we have Bike Parks their grading system is completely out of line with the grading system of old.

Personally I've always completely ignored mtb colour grading and just enjoyed the riding regardless whether it's an easy and smooth or gnar to the power of sick.

Llandegla was one of Wales' first trail centres after CYB wasn't it?

Dont know much about Llandegla except yes it’s been there for years and has matured over those years to become more bike parky with fast table lines. My gravel bike mate is local to there and said it was far more natural feeling twenty years ago, back in the day. He’s also a proud Welshman and doesn’t like the fact it’s now been taken over by rowdy English lads from Manchester & Liverpool

 

[Waynemarlow]

The real question now...

"Thread derailment! Is Wayne about to kick off?"

Not at all Gary, you have derailed it enough already to be not on topic, give it your best, its all yours, it’s just another Gary ferked up thread.

 

[KnollyBro]

The real question now...

"Thread derailment! Is Wayne about to kick off?"

Gary, Gary, Gary... this thread is currently being rebranded to more directly reflect the intention of the original statement of " IS THE LIGHTWEIGHT LOW POWERED MARKET ABOUT TO KICK OFF" which was "think Mtb with a cheat factor rather than Emtb." Does Wayne have the right to control a thread he started? No. Is Wayne allowed to make statements based on anecdotal opinions? Yes. Will Wayne get called on those statements? Yes. Has Wayne been called a "cheater" for riding an emtb? Probably. Will Wayne be frustrated that people disagree with him? Probably. Do you represent the average UK FF emtb'r. No. Do I appreciate your knowledge and entertainment factor? Yes.

SLs for the win! But not wanker super light SLs that cost way too much money and have parts on them that would crumple on the trails that I ride.

 

[KnollyBro]

Not at all Gary, you have derailed it enough already to be not on topic, give it your best, its all yours, it’s just another Gary ferked up thread.

Wayne, how has it been derailed? You have made statements that have led to topics related to your orignal thread title "Is the Lightweight low powered market about to kick off ?". Gary disagrees. So do I. This is a free and open forum meant for discussion. Defend yourself with facts and others will form their own conclusions. I have had to conceed that people around the world have different goals and ride different trails than I do; therefore, have different requierments for the bikes they choose. In a semi related topic, I still think people who buy S-WORKS bikes are too lazy to do their own research and build their own bikes and are kinda vain.

 

[leftside]

Not giving up my heavy weight full powered emtbs quite yet. Seen too many of my buddies break their lighter weight emtbs on trails around here.

You get used to the extra weight of these full powered emtbs pretty quickly, and the extra power and range is too much for me to give up. Besides, the weight of these things combined with the optimal placing of the motor makes them as good as any DH rig I've ridden. Guess it depends upon the trails you ride. Great to have options!

Going to be a while until we see lighter/full powered emtbs. The battery technology needs to change - and that probably means solid state batteries (SSB). Our best hope is one of the big battery manufacturers like Panasonic crack that particular problem. Lithium companies like Ganfeng and car companies like Nissan are spending millions on the research, but we're at least a few years away from commercial release. Will be a total game changer when it happens though - and not just for emtbs.

 

[Pdoz]

@Tubby G The first colour graded trails in the UK were all located within the new (at the time) trailcentres. mainly in Scotland and Wales and built in the late 90s when there was more of a split between DH and XC in mountainbiking. Trail centres back then catered to the latter rather than the former and tended to follow forest loops rather than the multiple trails you find now. Of course back then we had plenty DH tracks but none were graded at all. and many locations weren't actually common knowledge outside the DH scene. The original trail centre grading system had a fairly fixed remit.
Blue = easy/beginner. - a smoother and shorter trail route with no real challenging obsticles.
Red = intermediate - medium length with a few more natural features and obsticles but no manditory or unrollable features.
Black = Longer more challenging trails with a more natural feel and some technical trail obsticles.
Glentress was a good example of this... with the original blue trail being a suitable route for families and even kiddy trailers, the Red being faster and more fun with chutes (rollable) jumps and berms. and the Black being a far longer more natural feeling trail with terrain to test your fitness and (XC) skills.
Later on Green and orange graded trails were implemented. Green being properly family/beginner level and Orange being DH/jump/freeride
Fast forward a few years and the trail centre grading system throughout the UK was all over the place with inconsistency.
and now that we have Bike Parks their grading system is completely out of line with the grading system of old.

Personally I've always completely ignored mtb colour grading and just enjoyed the riding regardless whether it's an easy and smooth or gnar to the power of sick.

Llandegla was one of Wales' first trail centres after CYB wasn't it?

I love hearing historical info like this that gives us a better foundation from which to rant, sorry, expand our perspectives.

Around here , green is a trail you start the family / absolute beginners on whilst deciding what they can cope with



Blue can be anything from a longer version of the same thing, to a black trail trying to make you feel pathetic. I like blue trails, the wannabees don't bother and I'm less likely to come across a corpse. But then every so often, I'll have blasted through a nice black section and have to stop for a hard blue bit. There's something nice about maintaining flexibility of mind.

This is a free and open forum meant for discussion. Defend yourself with facts and others will form their own conclusions. ........ still think people who buy S-WORKS bikes are too lazy to do their own research and build their own bikes and are kinda vain.

What's a knolly?

 

[KnollyBro]

I love hearing historical info like this that gives us a better foundation from which to rant, sorry, expand our perspectives.

Around here , green is a trail you start the family / absolute beginners on whilst deciding what they can cope with

View attachment 88725

Blue can be anything from a longer version of the same thing, to a black trail trying to make you feel pathetic. I like blue trails, the wannabees don't bother and I'm less likely to come across a corpse. But then every so often, I'll have blasted through a nice black section and have to stop for a hard blue bit. There's something nice about maintaining flexibility of mind.



What's a knolly?

Oh Pdoz... Wayne is going to get upset for this thread derailment! A Knolly is a well-designed bike made for the demands of the North Shore, home to the humble roots (*disputed) of mountain biking.

 

[Pdoz]

Oh Pdoz... Wayne is going to get upset for this thread derailment! A Knolly is a well-designed bike made for the demands of the North Shore, home to the humble roots (*disputed) of mountain biking.

Ahhh...we call them girls bikes in Australia .( emily o'brien - Knation - Team ). I think she won the first race my daughter entered and from memory was really supportive of my daughter

 

[R2thek]

Since they are a motorized bike they are restricted on the same trails as a full E.
They also cost the same as a full E bike.
You can turn down a Full E to the same level to ride with analog.
I have no interest in them, but to each their own.

The lighter bikes are easier to handle on single track and more fun on technical trails. So it depends on what kind of ridding you do.

 

[Alexbn921]

All I ride is barley there super narrow technical singletrack and crazy steep even more technical DH trails. I find that the weight doesn't matter and smooths out the brake craters from 7 months of no rain.
For the riding I do it is way more fun