Is the Lightweight low powered market about to kick off ?

[viku]

If you take the frame and components out of the picture as they can for all practical purposes be identical in weight.
SL motor is 1.95kg
SL 320wh is about 2.5kg
The brose 2.2 is 2.9kg
The 500wh is 3.155kg
The 700wh is 3.835kg
Heaviest option at 6.735kg over an analog bike.
Lightest at 4.85kg.

That's less than 2kg maximum savings.

SL bikes are not apples to apples. They put thinner tires, smaller forks, light shocks.....all things you could but wouldn't do to a full-E.

The added Bike weight does not require special components. Most are rated for a rider well over 200lb.

1.95 + 2.5 is 4.45 not 4.85

First Look | The Specialized Levo SL Represents A New Class Of e-MTB

The Specialized Levo SL is a brand new full suspension e-MTB that joins the existing Levo & Kenevo. While it may look very similar to the existing Turbo Levo, the Levo SL is actually built around a unique motor & battery that helps to make it the lightest full suspension e-MTB that Specialized...

flowmountainbike.com

This quotes the 320wh battery pack as weighing 1.8kg

That would make the lightest option 3.75kg and the difference 3kg.

You could also take out the battery and ride with only the range extender shaving off another 800 grams.

Now were at almost 4 kilos though with pretty limited range.

 

[Gary]

post 17 .

Ah... Sorry. I completely missed your point. He's built SLs with a more durable DHish spec?
Can't really comment on what's fitted without a spec list.
what sort of weight are the two pictured?

I considered buying the basic carbon Sl when it first released. changing both wheels to 27.5 and increasing the (29") lyrik to 170mm. Geometry/BB height would be pretty sorted with those changes.
and stripped it down to 10spd 36t & 11-36 set up. same as I run on my current Eeb

 

[Alexbn921]

1.95 + 2.5 is 4.45 not 4.85

First Look | The Specialized Levo SL Represents A New Class Of e-MTB

The Specialized Levo SL is a brand new full suspension e-MTB that joins the existing Levo & Kenevo. While it may look very similar to the existing Turbo Levo, the Levo SL is actually built around a unique motor & battery that helps to make it the lightest full suspension e-MTB that Specialized...

flowmountainbike.com

This quotes the 320wh battery pack as weighing 1.8kg

That would make the lightest option 3.75kg and the difference 3kg.

You could also take out the battery and ride with only the range extender shaving off another 800 grams.

Now were at almost 4 kilos though with pretty limited range.

Fixed.

 

[Pdoz]

Ah... Sorry. I completely missed your point. He's built SLs with a more durable DHish spec?
Can't really comment on what's fitted without a spec list.
what sort of weight are the two pictured?

I considered buying the basic carbon Sl when it first released. changing both wheels to 27.5 and increasing the (29") lyrik to 170mm. Geometry/BB height would be pretty sorted with those changes.
and stripped it down to 10spd 36t & 11-36 set up. same as I run on my current Eeb

The lsl was around 17 kg , I try to resist looking at the spec list , it's easier to just chant " no, you don't need it"
He essentially removed all the original parts from new, then put them back on a year later when he sold it to me. My brain hurts trying to comprehend being good enough to justify that.

I think the ksl came in around 20 kg (+/- 1 kg for the range extender)

 

[Pdoz]

You could also take out the battery and ride with only the range extender shaving off another 800 grams.

Now were at almost 4 kilos though with pretty limited range.

There's a 25 km loop I do most wednesdays that uses 40% of the original battery - aka I could do it with just the range extender. If I had 2 , I could just swap them out at the carpark ( I usually do 2 laps)

 

[Gary]

The lsl was around 17 kg

Certainly not in the pic with the Olins DH fork tho.

I haven't followed any of these builds. Guess there's probably info on it in some specialized thread I haven't read?

 

[flash]

My eZesty is exactly 19.6kg as ridden. Pedals. Tools etc. It's no where near 13kg without the drive pack. It's 16.9kg. So a heavyish enduro weight with a Lyrik ultimate, axs drivetrain and XTR brakes.

My Levo and Merida e160 are both a few grams short of 23kg set up. That 4.5kg does make a difference but the majority of the weight savings is in battery. Even on low power the Levo goes further. So I ride it more. The LaPierre feels massively different even though it's similar geo to the Merida.

They're all good and all different.

Gordon

 

[Waynemarlow]

Weighed mine as it would seem the 17.5 kg quoted by Lapierre is on the light optimum side. Ready to roll with 2.6 Nobby Nic tyres ( DD on the back as we are blessed with loads of flint shards and farmers who cut Barbary hedges on the lanes ) mullet style full of tubeless fluid, Marzocchi Bomber shock,, built for reliability on the trail than lightness and its 19.3kgs with pedals. Disappointing but still 4kgs lighter than my E10.

But as a 92kg rider who should be 85kg’s then that 4kg is almost irrelevant until the 1st lift over the first style or gate. For what it cost me secondhand with the new latest gen motor and battery, a load of fun and suiting the rough single track ( about 50km 800m climb ) I tend to do.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I dont think its anywhere near full fat ebike sales, or will be near it anytime soon.

Yes there's definitely a market for super lights, but most first timers, and people moving over to ebike from regular pedal bike, most are going for full power bikes. Some, more experienced riders, are choosing a lightweight as a second bike as its closer to what they usually ride. But, the sales show, that most full fat bikes are selling far far more than super lights.

You only need to look at the stock levels, Orbea Rise, Levo SL, KSL's are in stock everywhere.

If I was a bike manufacturer, I'd choose to produce a full fat ebike as a hero product, and a light weight as an alternative option.

Its going to be a while before super lights get anywhere near the lofty levels of full fat ebike sales.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

ps - The eZesty is one of the most niche eMTB's ever made.

 

[RustyMTB]

If we got to the sunny, wishlist uplands of 500g batteries & sub 1kg motors, I guess you'd quickly see manufacturers ditching beefed up components. Not really persuaded by the current state of thngs but I'd be all over a 15kg 65nm+ eeb like a cheap coat & at a guess, lots would be very happy to ditch 24kg+ chunky monkeys. I'd be amazed if there isn't ££££ being poured into R&D that way.

 

[Bravestarr]

As ever so much of this debate is hugely subjective. I'll throw in my thoughts in any case... I don't really notice the weight on my Merida E160. I'm not jumping from bike to bike and so just enjoy it for what it is. Any limitations that the bike supposedly has are far outweighed by my limitations as a rider.
One of the things that i really disagree with is the notion that riding a full fat e-bike somehow makes the average rider less fit. In general terms I ride longer and further and do more ascent on my e-bike than I ever did on my accoustic. I'm also encouraged to do lots of local 1 hour blasts where in truth I'd probably not bother on my accoustic. The net of all of this is that I'm probably more riding fit than ever.

MTB is one of the most fashion led hobbies imaginable, we are all encouraged that the latest developments are so much better than what we already have. For sure every 5 years or so it is worth upgrading but chasing each new development is a fools errand.
12 speed v 11 speed v 10 speed? Kashima v normal? Di2 v normal shifting? Do these make a difference for the average rider?

 

[Pdoz]

You only need to look at the stock levels, Orbea Rise, Levo SL, KSL's are in stock everywhere.

Interesting perspective, we see a strong demand for lighter bikes in Australia and it's still rare to find a rise at a dealer last more than a few weeks.

The lsl seems to be the hire bike of choice , at least amongst the fleets I've seen in vic / nsw. This might be giving more first time emtb users an opportunity to try a " weak" motor and realise it offers enough for them? These are shops that previously rented out full power bikes.

Most of the riders I'm seeing on lighter bikes have already had 1/2 overweights , many had started out with the original merida e160 and are disillusioned with the progressive weight increases over the past 5 years. Others are just getting fitter / finding themselves using less assistance so questioning the need for all that weight.

Sure, everyone would love a light weight, cheap, full power bike with a pit crew wandering around wiping angel dust off the tyres....but whilst we wait for the unicorn the specialized and orbea dealers are happy

 

[F4Flyer]

Among current or ex-MTBer, I THINK so. I do not like heavy e-bikes. I found the Levo to be a bit too heavy and ponderous for my trails and style of riding. My Pivot Shuttle was definitely a lighter better feeling bike but still 46 lbs. They felt too glued to the ground but I have always had mountain bikes under 30 lbs. I love that light nimble feeling. I now have a Levo SL which I really like. My other mountain bike is an Ibis Ripley. The Levo SL I usually keep in Eco but Trail at times too, depending on the ride and the steepness. So for someone like me, the FF ebikes are not ideal. I still enjoy them but they take away some of the fun and experience of mountain biking. My fastest downhill times are still on the Ripley and my old Yeti 4.5. I can brake much later into corners so when it comes to twisty downhill trails, I'm faster on light bikes. It is also a lot more fun to be able to pop off features and jump off ledges on a light bike.

Would I like a lighter bike- yes, if the range of the Levo SL was not sacrificed much. I want to stay at or under 40 lbs...period.

 

[KnollyBro]

If you're happy with what you ride that's all that matters really.
I prefer riding the 30lb Enduro bike I mentioned I was riding yesterday.

You have got me wondering what these "extra things" you're doing that make you smile even more might be though.

Dont you find it challenging going from a 30 lb enduro bike to a 40-55 lb ebike or do you use one bike more than the other? Do you ride the same trails with both bikes? If I could have my choice of a pedal bike, I would probably get a husky enduro to ride Park with it. I can ride my SL every where I want to go but things will get worn out. I wouldn't mind if it lost 5 lbs but not to reduce its capabilites and even if I get to spent $3000 to do that.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Yes there's definitely a market for super lights, but most first timers, and people moving over to ebike from regular pedal bike, most are going for full power bikes.

What about the 2nd owners, bought a FF, found they are bit heavy for trail and single track ( which most riders do more often, more so than pure downhill ) and missing their analogues ? Do they sell the perfectly working 2 year old FF which you cannot get 1/2 your money back and buy another analogue, probably not after the enjoyment of the FF. Or do they keep the FF and buy one of the hybrid low power lightweights, as a second bike.

But, the sales show, that most full fat bikes are selling far far more than super lights.

At some stage though the FF market will become saturated ( just look on EBay at the moment at how many FF's are up for sale ), is this why the Gravel bikes have become the next big thing. Already my friends who have bought Gravel bikes have started to put bigger tyres and front suspension on and strangely enough a few with flat bars and geometries much like those 2015 hardtails we all rode. One even has gone full hog and bought an E Gravel bike, loving it, finding off road its a bit limiting and has kept his FF.

You only need to look at the stock levels, Orbea Rise, Levo SL, KSL's are in stock everywhere.

If I was a bike manufacturer, I'd choose to produce a full fat ebike as a hero product, and a light weight as an alternative option.

Its going to be a while before super lights get anywhere near the lofty levels of full fat ebike sales.

Yes like Lapierre a few manufacturers do have a complete range, FF, Lightweight, Gravel, Road, all EBikes, take your pick. Will Lightweights ever have the sales of FF's, probably not but they will take a fair proportion of sales.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

What about the 2nd owners, bought a FF, found they are bit heavy for trail and single track ( which most riders do more often, more so than pure downhill ) and missing their analogues ? Do they sell the perfectly working 2 year old FF which you cannot get 1/2 your money back and buy another analogue, probably not after the enjoyment of the FF. Or do they keep the FF and buy one of the hybrid low power lightweights, as a second bike.

Sure, agred. But you are really looking at a very specific use case here. An ebike is a luxury item. 2 ebikes is extremely unusual in most regular folks ownership.

I absolutely see a case for light weights. But dont see them anywhere near full fat sales any time soon.

Its a massive risk for a brand to make a super light (capex / tooling) vs tried and tested full fat, thats why theres barely any out there (Sl / Rise) and not much more...

 

[Waynemarlow]

But you are really looking at a very specific use case here.

OK hands up, how many of us rides more single track and trail than steep downhill needing FF power to get back to the top ( remember using "Tour" or say between the 2nd and 3rd level of most motors, is about 300 - 400W's which is about the max on say the Fazua's 350W's )

An ebike is a luxury item. 2 ebikes is extremely unusual in most regular folks ownership.

Only because they haven't been around long enough.

Its a massive risk for a brand to make a super light (capex / tooling) vs tried and tested full fat, thats why theres barely any out there (Sl / Rise) and not much more...

So why have Gravel bikes become the big sellors they are today, manufacturers took a punt on using pretty much standard equipment, just changing a frame slightly and creating a whole new class with branding. Why not the lightweights ( my friends with Gravel bikes are already trending towards lightweights with the mods they are making to their Gravel bikes ).

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

So why have Gravel bikes become the big sellors they are today, manufacturers took a punt on using pretty much standard equipment,

Gravel bikes have been around for around 10 years... Changing a wheelbase or head angle for an already established platform (road frame) and adding chunkier tyres is not anywhere near the kind of development cost for a light weight, full suspension full suss electric mountain bike.

Costs for Lightweight Ebike:
- Carbon moulds in multiple sizes, more complex shapes due to motor and battery
- signing up to big MOQ's from motor manufacturers
- Developing a custom battery (not off the shelf shimano / bosch)
- Certificates of conformity for EPAC
- shipping massive heavy boxes across the world
- marketing
- etc etc

Its all about risk and return. Massive cost, high risk.

Bike brands absolutely do not want excess unsold stock, it's the worst case scenario. And brings me back to my earlier point, Rise / Levo SL and KSL are readily available, in stock, un sold (and being discounted). Thats not a good place to be, especially with the crazy boost we saw for bike sales in covid.

Gravel bikes development costs over the years will no doubt have been minuscule comparatively. And the road market is much larger than MTB market. So less cost, bigger audience, less risk, more reward.

 

[Gary]

OK hands up, how many of us rides more single track and trail than steep downhill needing FF power to get back to the top ( remember using "Tour" or say between the 2nd and 3rd level of most motors, is about 300 - 400W's which is about the max on say the Fazua's 350W's )

What are you talking about?
Most of the steepest gnarliest Enduro/DH trails in the UK are situated in working forests full of access roads so are fairly easily accessible by riding a normal bike with no motor at all to the top.

So why have Gravel bikes become the big sellors they are today

Marketing

manufacturers took a punt on using pretty much standard equipment, just changing a frame slightly and creating a whole new class with branding.

It wasn't a "punt" it was a gradual shift and a rebrand of a niche that was already around.
Perfectly capable Cyclocross and off-road capable touring bikes had been around for decades and decades before the term "gravel bike" forced was upon us and that's all a gravel bike is but with slightly more tyre clearance and an image re-brand
Marketing sold "gravel" as being something more attractive to all the naive sheeple like your mates.
Personally I still think they're all shite joyless things to ride.
But each to their own.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Most of the steepest gnarliest Enduro/DH trails in the UK are situated in working forests full of access roads so are fairly easily accessible by riding a normal bike with no motor at all to the top.

Absolutely but this is an EMtb forum, most owners will have an EBike. But do they ride in Turbo more than any other level, almost certainly not. How many will motor to the top and get in 6 downhills where as on the analogue they may do 3 ( subject to there being no uphill transport of course ).

Bike brands absolutely do not want excess unsold stock, it's the worst case scenario. And brings me back to my earlier point, Rise / Levo SL and KSL are readily available, in stock, un sold (and being discounted).

Yes but typically they are usually more expensive than a FF. If on one hand you can buy a FF for 5K and the cheapest Lightweight is say 6K, which are you going to buy as your first EBike ?

I'm using the Ezesty just as an example but it uses almost the same kit other than its motor battery as its FF versions at about the same price. I'm not expecting to get it cheaper but it is quite a lot lighter already than its FF cousins by dint of an existing motor and battery made by a major supplier. Sure the lightweight may need a different frame but not a lot else of development. Sorry I don't get your development costs, most have already been done.

There are other lightweights appearing such as the Trek ECalibre, again an interesting concept at 16.3kgs and quite niche in its 60mm travel on the rear, almost a true Gravel bikers next bike.

 

[Gary]

Absolutely but this is an EMtb forum, most owners will have an EBike. But do they ride in Turbo more than any other level, almost certainly not. How many will motor to the top and get in 6 downhills where as on the analogue they may do 3 ( subject to there being no uphill transport of course ).

Honestly. Who cares?

You're completely deluded if you think most folk's Emtb rides are longer or more elevation gain than regular mountainbikers have been doing on normal bikes every weekend since the invention of the mtb. Christ. I did 6 "downhills" in the Tweed Valley today on my normal bike. and I'm out completely of shape ATM.
most emtbs will generally only do about 4-5000ft of elevation and that's simply not enough range to do a proper DH track 6 times top to bottom.
Ebikes are cool. But don't fool yourself into thinking they are the be all and end all of cycling.

As for your comment on the ECaliber. I'd honestly struggle to believe you'd ever even been mountainbiking if I ever overheard you say a 60mm rear, 120mm front travel XC bike was

almost a true Gravel bikers next bike

Either that or so naive you'd be a marketing man's wet dream.

 

[Waynemarlow]

You're completely deluded if you think most folk's Emtb rides are longer or more elevation gain than regular mountainbikers have been doing on normal bikes every weekend since the invention of the mtb. Christ. I did 6 "downhills" in the Tweed Valley today on my normal bike. and I'm out completely of shape ATM.

But you are the "special one" Gary who can do it all.

Just recently at a bike park we were at where there was no uphill transport, we were doing two downhills for every one that a group of young uns were doing, we had lunch and did some more, the same group were in the pub by 13.30 totally knacked. Perhaps they weren't in the "special ones" category.

There's no way I'd take the EZesty doing the same amount of climbs we did on my FF as I too would have been in the pub by 13.31. But then I didn't buy it for uphills and big downhills, I have a bike that does that already.

The ECalibre is a niche product, some great revues from those with open minds, some terrible ones from those who were looking for a FF EBike. Horses for courses I'm afraid.

 

[Gary]

I think you need to re-assess your view of cycling as a hobby
There's really nothing special at all about being capable of riding a bicycle for a few hours.
Especially if it cost you a few thousand pounds and you get dressed up in all the kit to go with it.

Have you ever ridden a proper XC bike? They're fast and extremely light. and a joy to ride under a fit and capable rider. The ECaliber is a nice idea. But it weighs almost twice what a proper XC bike does

 

[Pdoz]

Just recently at a bike park we were at where there was no uphill transport, we were doing two downhills for every one that a group of young uns were doing, we had lunch and did some more, the same group were in the pub by 13.30 totally knacked. Perhaps they weren't in the "special ones" category.

So you're saying I can get a pub meal for lunch if I sell fugly ?

 

[Waynemarlow]

There's really nothing special at all about being capable of riding a bicycle for a few hours.
Especially if it cost you a few thousand pounds and you get dressed up in all the kit to go with it.

But Gary this is a Forum for EBike owners, people interested in EBikes, you know the very type of bikes that in a lot of countries, adult EBikes outsell the equivalent analogues.

Can we get back to the threads topic without the ”Garys “ of the world all harking back to yesteryears “ I can do everything better on an analogue “ please.

 

[Gary]

I haven't actually veered from topic. I'm simply being realistic. You should try it some time.
Ain't no Ebiker got time fo dat? .

 

[Waynemarlow]

Have you ever ridden a proper XC bike? They're fast and extremely light. and a joy to ride under a fit and capable rider. The ECaliber is a nice idea. But it weighs almost twice what a proper XC bike does

Now in the real world, capable and fit riders riding on major brand 2022 factory 8.2kg full suspension XC Mtb‘s, must be about as scarce as Scotsmen who can ride for hours at a cadence around 200rpm I think spotting Haggis in the hills of Glencoe maybe more likely.

Can we get back to discussing lightweight EMtbs that about 99% of readers of the thread maybe interested in without comparison to those still dreaming of past exploits of Mtb rides that could beat the average XC speeds * of the more recent major brands lightweights.

* I will place a caveat here though as the one major handicap of the modern EMtb whilst doing XC is the speed limiter. As we are talking off public roads here, then in my view derestricted bike times is a like for like comparison.

 

[F4Flyer]

I have lost track of this thread and the various intents but one think I will say is that light bikes always felt and still feel much better to ride. There is no trail or scenario where a heavy bike every felt better..road or MTB or even gravel. So if someone comes out with a nice e-MTB that weighs even less than the Levo SL while not compromising range, I'll be among the first in line.

 

[KnollyBro]

But Gary this is a Forum for EBike owners, people interested in EBikes, you know the very type of bikes that in a lot of countries, adult EBikes outsell the equivalent analogues.

Can we get back to the threads topic without the ”Garys “ of the world all harking back to yesteryears “ I can do everything better on an analogue “ please.

While trying not to derail this thread, when you mention that "adult EBikes outsell the equivalent analogues", I would like to see some evidence of this. Are you referring to ALL EBikes (road, commuter, emtb, etc) vs all analogue bikes? My LBS(s) and mountains would not agree for various reasons including cost, availability and intended purpose (re: fitness).

As for the:

"Just recently at a bike park we were at where there was no uphill transport, we were doing two downhills for every one that a group of young uns were doing, we had lunch and did some more, the same group were in the pub by 13.30 totally knacked. Perhaps they weren't in the "special ones" category. "

There may be several other variables involved here. For instance, my Bro who likes in the UK, who might be riding the same Bike Park on his analogue bike, enjoys the downhill but also likes the exercise of the climb. 3-4 hours is enough for him and his friends, who are also on analogue bikes. He does not have $10,000+ to buy an EMtb that would come close to matching the performance of his rig. He only has either the morning or the afternoon to go riding as he shares childcare duty. He is 43 years old.
I have a KSL/Levo SL and will do the same type of ride and be done in 3-4 hours as the downs are quite demanding. I am 60 years old. I also appreciate the exercise of the climb but still mostly hate it. I had a FF Kenevo but it rode like a tank on the way down so the benefit of full turbo on the way up is lost if my intention is to enjoy the downs. To each, their own.
My wife often tells me to "Ride my own bike and let me enjoy how I ride my bike." This forum is full of threads with excellent tips on how to repair things, where to ride and inspirational pictures and videos of pride in one's accomplishments. This forum is also littered with people sharing their opinions on topics which they often don't seem to understand, are opinions.