Is the Lightweight low powered market about to kick off ?

[Waynemarlow]

Is the light weight Emtb market very ripe for the right product. Take myself for example, I have an Analogue bike and a Dengfu E10. The Analogue doesn't really get ridden much now as I'm getting to the age where fitness and body recovery is taking to long between rides to fully recover. And I have a real problem with the E10/ M600, it is too powerful to ride with my friends still on analogue bikes, too heavy to lift over styles and gates and I wasn't keeping my fitness using it. But it is great fun in a pack of other full fat Emtbs.

The Ezesty, Orbea Rise and Specialized SL's all fill that very light weight and great fun to ride bikes on typically trail and some downhill. The Ezesty also has the ability to simply remove the motor and battery and you have a conventional Mtb thats 13kgs. Having just purchased an Ezesty and new to the EZesty I think it will become the bike I most use. Last night I went out with a fast group on Gravel bikes, not a problem to fit in, Sunday I went with analogue riders, turned the motor off and on a recent trip to Bike Park Wales I was surprised to see so many Rises and SL's, talking to the riders they like the almost MTB feel in the downhills, they just fit another battery at lunch time.

My prediction is that there is about to be an explosion of sales in this market, the full fat EMtb is now fully catered for and a lot of bikes sold, the very light weight EMtb pushes $10K so the sales are few. Get that price right and some tweaks to the way we think ( think Mtb with a cheat factor rather than Emtb ) and my betting is that it will quickly become a whole new market.

The major problem to date has been the limited range of only 250Wh's ( I used only 1 Battery on the 3 hour Gravel ride and about 2 hours, 20 miles per battery with other Emtbs whilst trail riding ), the Fazua gets around this with easily changeable batteries, the Rise and SL by fitting range extender batteries. Why not simply fit a 400W/h battery such as the new Fazua 60 ?

Am I the only one starting to think these light weights are really the all rounders we thought full fats were ?

 

[brw0513]

I currently ride a 2018 Merida e160 900e and really enjoy it. It's got around 4800km on it now. I bought it to get back into riding (57 years old) and to get over the dread of the two killer hills near home on the 3 times per week commute to work (34km round trip). I used to dread these two hills - and that was most of the reason I gave up riding to work.

But I'm now getting fitter and tend to commute in Eco mode everywhere - even those pesky hills. I'm not sure I'll ever get into the true mountain biking caper in a serious way. But I can't see my going back to boring flat bar bike either.

My E8000 motor might get noisy. It is not unusual to get caught in rain on the way home. And although I have bought a motor bearing kit, there is still a risk of bricking it if I ever I do attempt to replace bearings. The battery health is now 79% and although that doesn't matter too much to me, it might to a prospective buyer. So its decision time for me - keep the bike or buy another.

I really like the idea of the Fuzua drive line. It is possible, but expensive, to replace the entire drive system if that ever became a need. And I really like the bottom bracket being separate from the motor. I think the lower motor output and lower battery capacity would still suit my duties.

I'm seriously thinking of a Lapierre eZesty. The only thing stopping me is the cost. And the stupid spoke magnet idea that should be replaced with a much more elegant solution. But the eZesty sure is a lot of coin that is very hard to justify. So I agree - I think there would be a market for lower cost, lower output eMTBs.

 

[Alexbn921]

Since they are a motorized bike they are restricted on the same trails as a full E.
They also cost the same as a full E bike.
You can turn down a Full E to the same level to ride with analog.
I have no interest in them, but to each their own.

 

[#mitch]

As the other commenter said, personally I don’t understand that argument. What’s stopping anyone from turning the assistance down when riding with non e-bikers. Some of the lighter full power bikes are getting in the same weight range now anyway

 

[Mcharza]

There's still huge weight different full emtb vs. light emtb, about 5 kilos. Bike handling is totally different.
But as someone said, each their own and choose a bike according to your needs and condition.

 

[JetSetDemo]

You might be right in the last 3 months in my riding group three of us have all switched from full power trek,Spec & Santa Cruz to Kenevo SL’s and we are loving them, a change is coming

 

[KnollyBro]

You might be right in the last 3 months in my riding group three of us have all switched from full power trek,Spec & Santa Cruz to Kenevo SL’s and we are loving them, a change is coming

I have had both and felt that the FF ebike, while much easier to ride up an FSR was noticeably way to heavy to ride down the trails I like to ride, the way I like to ride. I never run out of battery as I rarely ride more than 4 hours in a day and I appreciate getting enough exercise the SL provides on the way up. In contrast, from what I have seen on this Forum, there are probably many more riders who enjoy being out all day, where a larger battery and the extra weight does not affect them, as the type of trails they prefer are more XC.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Since they are a motorized bike they are restricted on the same trails as a full E.
They also cost the same as a full E bike.
You can turn down a Full E to the same level to ride with analog.
I have no interest in them, but to each their own.

I’m not sure you can turn down a FF EBike to match an analogue if you take everything into account and not just motor power.

The problem I have with the M600 is as soon as I dial it right back I am then on a lumbering heavy weight amongst nippy analogues which are able to be lifted over gates and styles and travel at a much slower pace where the head angles and setup for faster averages of a FF EBike, just seem to magnify the heavyweight.

The more I ride this EZesty the more I think what a great all rounder it is.

 

[Konanige]

You can't make a mustang handle like a lotus!!

 

[Alexbn921]

I’m not sure you can turn down a FF EBike to match an analogue if you take everything into account and not just motor power.

The problem I have with the M600 is as soon as I dial it right back I am then on a lumbering heavy weight amongst nippy analogues which are able to be lifted over gates and styles and travel at a much slower pace where the head angles and setup for faster averages of a FF EBike, just seem to magnify the heavyweight.

The more I ride this EZesty the more I think what a great all rounder it is.

Of course you can turn the power all the way down to off. Weight can never be gotten rid of. Snappiness is subjective and setup goes a long way. I can make almost any bike more stable or more responsive.

If you don't use the power, have to lift over fences and generally don't ride very far an SL is not a bad choice.

The SL motor is only 2lb lighter.

For my long steep rides I almost exclusively use Eco, but I need the 700wh.

 

[Mcharza]

Of course you can turn the power all the way down to off. Weight can never be gotten rid of. Snappiness is subjective and setup goes a long way. I can make almost any bike more stable or more responsive.

If you don't use the power, have to lift over fences and generally don't ride very far an SL is not a bad choice.

The SL motor is only 2lb lighter.

For my long steep rides I almost exclusively use Eco, but I need the 700wh.

Looks like you're riding a Kenovo Expert. I had the before Kenovo SL.

Their differences are really big, already weighing 5 kg (11 lbs).
No matter how you adjusted the Eco setting to less than 15%, it just became a tank.

 

[stiv674]

I did like the idea of a lighter e-mtb, nearly bought an e-zesty but thought I'd miss the full power motor, especially as most of my riding is with a mate on a Levo.

I ended up buying a Whyte which is one of the heaviest

I'd still like an e-zesty and have been looking for a used one as I've got a fazua gravel bike.

FWIW, the lightest e-zesty is about 18.5kg so about 15.5kg without motor and battery and with blank fitted, what's the average weight of a typical normal mtb...

 

[CjP]

People seem to always say ‘you can almost get a FF weight down to an SL weight’. Not with like for like mods, there is always going to be on average a 6 to 7kg difference. Period.
That difference in weight is huge and gives a totally different ride feel. If you think they’re the same or similar then you obviously have no idea.
I will never go back to a FF because of the extra weight.
I wanted my brother to try my SL so I have been riding his Giga and the difference between that and the SL is much closer than the SL and FF.
They almost feel identical in weight (3kgs difference) where as my SL @19kg vs the FF Kenevo @25kg feels way heavier. Over 21kgs the ebikes start feeling like small motorbikes.

Once battery tech gets better there wont be an ebike over 20kgs.

 

[Gyre]

It's a hard sell for a consumer to sacrifice power and range for light weight at roughly the same price - at least until they have the experience to change how they score those attributes.

 

[Gary]

I'd love a much lighter Emtb (and have always said so) The issue is that all the properly light options simply aren't really up to hard riding. even the lightest motors are only a 6-900g lighter at most and reducing the battery capacity generally doesn't save a whole lot more weight than that either. so to build an Emtb as much as 6-7kg lighter you basically have to design a lighter/weaker/flexier chassis and spec lighter weaker forks then adorn it with components more suited to XC use. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Fine if you're light and super smooth or XC is more your thing though.

Lighter affordable battery technology is ages away so horribly heavy 25kg+ large battery capacity Emtbs will be around for a long time yet .

 

[KnollyBro]

I'd love a much lighter Emtb (and have always said so) The issue is that all the properly light options simply aren't really up to hard riding. even the lightest motors are only a 6-900g lighter at most and reducing the battery capacity generally doesn't save a whole lot more weight than that either. so to build an Emtb as much as 6-7kg lighter you basically have to design a lighter/weaker/flexier chassis and spec lighter weaker forks then adorn it with components more suited to XC use. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Fine if you're light and super smooth or XC is more your thing though.

Lighter affordable battery technology is ages away so horrible 25kg+ large battery capacity Emtbs will be around for a long time yet .

While it depends on the definition of LIGHT and HARD RIDING, given that the average emtb'r is older, not as fit, prefers to ride longer, rides up hills (in turbo?) and avoids Black or Double Black trails in a bike park, the manufacturers will cater to that demographic. Is this not why there are more options in the FF compared to the SL variants? While the SLs can be built up to be a LIGHTER HARD RIDING bike, it will never be as nimble as an enduro/trail bike, as capable as a pure DH bike nor last as long as FF bike on a long day out. People who want it ALL will have to prioritize on which part of ALL is most important. My SLs work for me on the Black and Double Black trails I like to ride.

 

[Pdoz]

I'd love a much lighter Emtb (and have always said so) The issue is that all the properly light options simply aren't really up to hard riding. even the lightest motors are only a 6-900g lighter at most and reducing the battery capacity generally doesn't save a whole lot more weight than that either. so to build an Emtb as much as 6-7kg lighter you basically have to design a lighter/weaker/flexier chassis and spec lighter weaker forks then adorn it with components more suited to XC use. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Fine if you're light and super smooth or XC is more your thing though.

Lighter affordable battery technology is ages away so horribly heavy 25kg+ large battery capacity Emtbs will be around for a long time yet .

But if we set the target around 5 kg lighter , it's still better than wallowing around and accepting the sponges marketing seems to think we need.

Surely YOU recognise not everyone needs to carry a massive lump of electrons to compensate for limp legs? Just look at christians creations...his levo sl

And all the variations on his KSL.

 

[Gary]

So where are you magically going to find a 5kg saving? Bearing in mind a full power motor weighs around 2.5kg and a 500wh battery 2.6kg.
Lighter, weaker, flexier less durable frames and components?
Or moar expensive high end carbon everything?
No fanx boss!

Here's one idea though... How about designing full power Emtbs with external batteries? They genuinely did allow for lighter frame designs without sacrificing strength or rigidity

B b b but... Then they might look like E bikes!

 

[Kilham5]

Is the even lighter, even less assisted, faster, genuinely eco, with totally unlimited range market going to take off?

Oh hang on, it might mean you have to put a little more effort in (and join an unassisted forum)

B b b but... it's 2022, effort is so last century.... now, where is my Deliveroo order?

Tell you what, what we need are a few more sub-niches where we can debate the infintesimal nuances (aka compromises) between each and every one, over and over again? What is an interweb forum for, after all?
Keeps the world of commerce spinning, I guess.

 

[Pdoz]

So where are you magically going to find a 5kg saving? Bearing in mind a full power motor weighs around 2.5kg and a 500wh battery 2.6kg.
Lighter, weaker, flexier less durable frames and components?
Or moar expensive high end carbon everything?
No fanx boss!

Here's one idea though... How about designing full power Emtbs with external batteries? They genuinely did allow for lighter frame designs without sacrificing strength or rigidity

B b b but... Then they might look like E bikes!

Gary, can you pick a single component on christians bikes that you wouldn't be comfortable riding on?

Light low power motor , strong rider, admittedly more $ than most of us want to spend, but that means we can buy what's left when he uogrades

 

[CjP]

Lol to the comment someone made re lack of range, I don’t know what they’re on about. My SL’s with an extender still outlasted all FF bikes with both 625 and 700 batts. My KSL with Dual crowns and extender weighed in at 21kgs compared to the FF Kenevo same mods at 26kgs. That 5kgs made a very noticeable difference. I actually don’t ride with the extender that often as I am getting 35km to the main battery.

@Gary while I haven’t gone down any pro lines (due to self preservation), I have taken them down many double black runs without a single problem to date. The KSL also shreds much nicer than the FF. Much easier to throw around which is nice.

 

[Gary]

Gary, can you pick a single component on christians bikes that you wouldn't be comfortable riding on?

Ive never seen Christian's bike. Throw me a link to a pic and its spec. And I'll have a peruse.

 

[Alexbn921]

If you take the frame and components out of the picture as they can for all practical purposes be identical in weight.
SL motor is 1.95kg
SL 320wh is about 1.8kg
The brose 2.2 is 2.9kg
The 500wh is 3.155kg
The 700wh is 3.835kg
Heaviest option at 6.735kg over an analog bike.
Lightest at 3.85kg.

That's Almost 3kg savings.

SL bikes are not apples to apples. They put thinner tires, smaller forks, light shocks.....all things you could but wouldn't do to a full-E.

The added Bike weight does not require special components. Most are rated for a rider well over 200lb.

Edit fixed weights

 

[Waynemarlow]

SL type bikes should be considered Apples to Oranges in regards to EMtbs, just the sheer fact that the battery alone is probably close to 2 Kgs lighter. My FAZUA motor and battery is 3.2kgs, probably less than the motor unit on most brands.

But that motor battery is never going to go as far, at the same pace going up the same hills carrying a fat arse oldie like me as a FF version. Who cares, not me and that was never my premise, I was just saying that the FF has its niche and the light weight it’s niche. Never are the two going to be able to do the same job.

But now having both, I have to repeat that a FF is far more dedicated to its niche, where as the SL type can be used across a much wider broad range of riding, putting a smile on my face right across that broad range of riding.

PS Gary, really don’t get the weaker more flexier frame thingee you mention, no manufacturer would risk their reputations on broken frames and nor would the structural engineering modelling companies who would almost certainly be using the same loadings be advising their clients to scrimp on strength and thus safety and longevity.

 

[Gary]

Wayne. I didn't mention safety. A lighter flexier less durable frame isn't the same thing as a dangerously weak frame at all. eg. You wouldn't buy a 20lb XC race bike to ride enduro on but that doesn't mean it's not strong enough to ride it down the odd enduro track. and as a 220lb ex DH rider who still likes to throw bikes about a bit I might have a slightly different view of component and frame flex than you.

OG shimano 504wh external batteries only weighed 2.8kg. ie. watt hours to grams lighter than the SLs internal batteries listed by Alex above.
Makes you think, eh?

A full power motor Emtb doesn't actually have a narrower niche than a lightweight lower powered emtb at all. I genuinely can't think of a single thing I couldn't do on mine that I could on a Levo SL. Versatility is how you view it.
Eg. Today I commuted 20 miles by road in the rain, then fannied about with a chilled ride home riding street through the city (mannies, stairs, pavement gaps, wheelies n hops etc.) Then took an XC style off road detour instead of the road.
No. it's not as nimble as the 30lb carbon Enduro bike I was riding yesterday. but it's still perfectly maneuverable if you still happen to posess a little skill and strength.
Swapping to a set of faster rolling lightweight tyres increases how playfully most full motor Emtbs ride and handle massively. As does not going modern geo loooong on the wheelbase/reach

 

[Waynemarlow]

Yup Gary, you can do any thing, on any thing and still have a smile. I just get a bigger smile on the lightweight, doing more things than on the FF

 

[Gary]

If you're happy with what you ride that's all that matters really.
I prefer riding the 30lb Enduro bike I mentioned I was riding yesterday.

You have got me wondering what these "extra things" you're doing that make you smile even more might be though.

 

[boBE]

You can't make a mustang handle like a lotus!!

A 2:51 lap at VIR says you can! 2021 Ford Mustang Mach 1 at Lightning Lap 2022

Mandatory e-bike content: My Levo SL is the right bike for me, given the current technology. When a lighter (5 kG) model comes out with similar performance I may buy it but I doubt it will be in the next 5 years.

 

[Pdoz]

Ive never seen Christian's bike. Throw me a link to a pic and its spec. And I'll have a peruse.

post 17 , the black one was one version of his levo sl and the grey one a version of his kenevo sl.

I think it's the same set of wheels - he took the originals off the lsl from new then put them back on when I bought it .

 

[Alexbn921]

A 2:51 lap at VIR says you can! 2021 Ford Mustang Mach 1 at Lightning Lap 2022

Mandatory e-bike content: My Levo SL is the right bike for me, given the current technology. When a lighter (5 kG) model comes out with similar performance I may buy it but I doubt it will be in the next 5 years.

5kg is more than the motor and battery weigh, so not really possible to loose that and still be an ebike.