Is the e13 crank issue now fixed?

[Singletrackmind]

Received the crank arms today what tool is used to tighten up the preload caps is it a shimano special tool View attachment 85071

Based on input from a similar thread, purchased this aluminum end cap that is much more robust then cheap plastic type material that came stock on my YT Decoy. Also purchased tool to remove stock end cap and it cane off very easy. Could have used something from toolbox without dropping any cash for tool since I was replacing cap anyway. Have a tool I will never use again! New aluminum end cap uses standard allenwrench.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07N6CX9MP?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

 

[Singletrackmind]

1. Ask Shimano?! Most stuff has been out of stock for months, not just the crank arms. Also since Orbea is using Shimano cranks for their recall that's going to suck up some of the supply.
2. Seem to be standard.

Pretty sure they are ebike specific meant for the EP8 or E8000 motor. If thread is too long, will bottom out against spindle arm and not seat up against crank, thus not securing crank to motor spindle.

 

[ped]

After more than 7000km on my orbea rise M20 i had no issues concerning cranks and spindle.
But following this discusssion i decided to install some Shimano FC-EM600's at my own expense.
It is worth 40€ to feel safe. I am not really interested in waiting for the e*thirteens to fail.
For the weight watchers: FC-EM600 = 550g, e-thirteen = 497g

 

[ped]

I wondered if he meant the carbon ones. Seems pretty shitty that Orbea are using cranks that the motor manufacturer themselves have said are incompatible with the spindle. Seems the em600 cranks are compatible and SUPER cheap compared to the em900/XT ones, but I don't know if they weigh a bomb and I can't find weight specs anywhere on those.

EM600 = 550g. I just mounted a pair. see my recent post.

 

[Longfellow78]

After more than 7000km on my orbea rise M20 i had no issues concerning cranks and spindle.
But following this discusssion i decided to install some Shimano FC-EM600's at my own expense.
It is worth 40€ to feel safe. I am not really interested in waiting for the e*thirteens to fail.
For the weight watchers: FC-EM600 = 550g, e-thirteen = 497g

View attachment 85207

View attachment 85208

Excellent first hand data. These are almost the exact weights I posted from manufacturer data: EM600, EM900, M8150 crank weights confirmed - EMTB Forums

Funny that parts manufacturers can accurately measure their parts to a few grams of accuracy, but bike manufacturers are hundreds of
grams wrong!

 

[neilo]

For those that have switched to the EM600 cranks from eThirteen, what happens with the external "seal" (cover?) on the drive side of the eThirteen (the one that covers the chainring lock ring), it looks like the Shimano cranks don't have one? Does it matter?

 

[Bigtuna00]

For those that have switched to the EM600 cranks from eThirteen, what happens with the external "seal" (cover?) on the drive side of the eThirteen (the one that covers the chainring lock ring), it looks like the Shimano cranks don't have one? Does it matter?

That's an e*thirteen part, not Shimano/Orbea. https://support.ethirteen.com/hc/en-us/articles/360058908731-Shimano-E-spec-Crank-Manual

 

[neilo]

That's an e*thirteen part, not Shimano/Orbea. https://support.ethirteen.com/hc/en-us/articles/360058908731-Shimano-E-spec-Crank-Manual

Thanks. Also just found another post in one of the many Rise crank threads that confirms the Shimano crank doesn't need this chainring seal.

 

[pragrick]

Shimano Steps - Manivelles FC-EM900 Hollowtech II 160 | 165 | 170 | 175mm

Con çues pour fonctionner avec le moteur Shimano E P8, les manivelles Shimano Steps FC-EM900 ont été optimisées pour…

www.ebike24.fr

I just found 165mm in stock for 100 euros, thought that I would share in case anyone needs/wants them. I bought a set.

 

[pragrick]

I have the carbon cranks

Sadly the only shimano cranks I can find in stock are The lowest budget FC EM600 these aren’t the hollow tech ones

I know they will fit just not sure about losing my high end cranks for the budget Shimano ones

anyone got any opinions on these arms as in the Em600 ones ???

Shimano Steps - Manivelles FC-EM900 Hollowtech II 160 | 165 | 170 | 175mm

Con çues pour fonctionner avec le moteur Shimano E P8, les manivelles Shimano Steps FC-EM900 ont été optimisées pour…

www.ebike24.fr

they have them here, just bought a set only have 165mm 100euro

 

[Singletrackmind]

If price isn't a consideration-

5DEV Shimano eCrank

Shimano eBike Motor Cranks from 5DEV 5DEV's CNC'd Billet Cranks come in 2 sizes and include all the features of our standard cranks. Reduce rock strikes and pedal strikes. Improve performance through technical climbs and terrain with shorter crank lengths. Made in San Diego, California. Q...

ride5dev.com

 

[DanMcDan]

If price isn't a consideration-

5DEV Shimano eCrank

Shimano eBike Motor Cranks from 5DEV 5DEV's CNC'd Billet Cranks come in 2 sizes and include all the features of our standard cranks. Reduce rock strikes and pedal strikes. Improve performance through technical climbs and terrain with shorter crank lengths. Made in San Diego, California. Q...

ride5dev.com

Approved by shimano though…,,,

 

[Singletrackmind]

Approved by shimano though…,,,

Honestly don't think Shimano will approve anything other than their own products. Check out 5 Dev's website, they are top notch and manufacturer complex aerospace parts with tight tolerances. Have spoke to their R&D guys, lots of time and effort went into designing their EP8 compatible crank arm. My Yeti came stocked with 160mm Shimano cranks. Shimano doesn't have an OEM 160mm for the E8000 motor and before I understood EP8 cranks are compatible on E8000 motors if you use a 5mm spacer, went with the ethirteen's and really like them. No issues, come with crank boots and look cool too!

 

[RickBullotta]

Yup. All fixed.

 

[RickBullotta]

If price isn't a consideration-

5DEV Shimano eCrank

Shimano eBike Motor Cranks from 5DEV 5DEV's CNC'd Billet Cranks come in 2 sizes and include all the features of our standard cranks. Reduce rock strikes and pedal strikes. Improve performance through technical climbs and terrain with shorter crank lengths. Made in San Diego, California. Q...

ride5dev.com

Same weight as FC-EM900 and 2X the price, plus not guaranteed by Shimano to be compatible - what's the benefit besides a blingy look?

 

[redrhino]

Haven't had issues with two different rises, mine and a friend that we ride hard on. Honestly this feels like something shimano is responsible for. Very thin wall with a hole drilled in it... are you kidding me. That area the cranks are attached to should be double the thickness.

 

[Murphius]

Another victim of these POS cranks

 

[Singletrackmind]

Same weight as FC-EM900 and 2X the price, plus not guaranteed by Shimano to be compatible - what's the benefit besides a blingy look?

Never underestimate the importance of bling factor. They are made of aerospace grade aluminum and CNC machined from a single billet. Not cheap cast crap aluminum. As mentioned, if $ is not an issue and you like having something unique, go for it. Personally I have never had an issue with Shimano cranks (other than not being able to find them for sale) or E13 cranks for that matter.

 

[Longfellow78]

View attachment 92534
Another victim of these POS cranks

Oh Damn. Were they set up to the "new" recommendations, i.e. with loctite, 14nm, and with the hole the opposite side to the pinch bolts?

I didn't even ride my bike with the e13s, pair of XTs went straight on before I started.

 

[Murphius]

Oh Damn. Were they set up to the "new" recommendations, i.e. with loctite, 14nm, and with the hole the opposite side to the pinch bolts?

I didn't even ride my bike with the e13s, pair of XTs went straight on before I started.

Yes, followed the new guidelines. Pretty disappointing.

 

[Longfellow78]

Yes, followed the new guidelines. Pretty disappointing.

Shit. First instance I have seen of this since the new guidelines. Maybe your bike shop didn't follow them?

Have you spoken to them about it?

 

[Bike&Beer]

One of mine came off yesterday too (slow speed uphill thankfully)

I’ve got the M20 with alloy cranks and to be fair I haven’t had any issues over the last 18 months. I did the threadlocker etc but hadn’t checked torque for the last few rides, so keep an eye on it if you’re sticking with e13 (I’ve ordered shimano xt cranks)

 

[Bigtuna00]

Shit. First instance I have seen of this since the new guidelines. Maybe your bike shop didn't follow them?

Have you spoken to them about it?

The "guidelines" include checking for hairline cracks in the axle. I suspect that's what happened here.

 

[DubSea]

Haven't had issues with two different rises, mine and a friend that we ride hard on. Honestly this feels like something shimano is responsible for. Very thin wall with a hole drilled in it... are you kidding me. That area the cranks are attached to should be double the thickness.

The ghost of Junzo Kawai (@thanksshimano) • Instagram photos and videos

15K Followers, 115 Following, 472 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from The ghost of Junzo Kawai (@thanksshimano)

www.instagram.com

Understanding an unusual Shimano crankset failure

An Ultegra 6800 Hollowtech crank breaks – what can we learn?

www.bikeradar.com

Shimano does not exactly have an outstanding track record for standing up and taking responsibility for product issues. It's borderline shocking that a recall has not been done for the road cranks.

 

[Longfellow78]

The ghost of Junzo Kawai (@thanksshimano) • Instagram photos and videos

15K Followers, 115 Following, 472 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from The ghost of Junzo Kawai (@thanksshimano)

www.instagram.com

Understanding an unusual Shimano crankset failure

An Ultegra 6800 Hollowtech crank breaks – what can we learn?

www.bikeradar.com

Shimano does not exactly have an outstanding track record for standing up and taking responsibility for product issues. It's borderline shocking that a recall has not been done for the road cranks.

In this case its 100% orbeas and e13's fault. There have been no instances I have seen of this happening with Shimano cranks, and shimano only certifies its own cranks as compatible (or I believe one's with an identical design around the axle end).

Admittedly the hole in the axle is totally retarded and seems to just be there for that gimmicky bit of plastic to tell you when the crank is on the axle far enough.

But the e13 cranks do not have a tight enough tolerance in the crank/axle interface and they walk off the axle over time from the microscopic wobble (so I've read). This, combined with the hole as a weak point is what causes the breaking. There needs to be a recall and replacement with Shimano cranks, but it is orbea to blame, their choice to spec garbage cranks and commencal have done a recall.

 

[cookie70]

Add mine to the list of bikes with non-driveside arm falling off M10.

I even contacted orbea when I got the bike who stated that mine should be in the batch that have had the appropriate changes made to it! Not happy, luckily neither I or the bike (as far as I can tell) sustained damage.

Why doesnt the tech update say to reapply fresh loctite to the preload cap if it already had been applied? seems strange

 

[ebsocalmtb]

Add mine to the list of bikes with non-driveside arm falling off M10.

I even contacted orbea when I got the bike who stated that mine should be in the batch that have had the appropriate changes made to it! Not happy, luckily neither I or the bike (as far as I can tell) sustained damage.

Why doesnt the tech update say to reapply fresh loctite to the preload cap if it already had been applied? seems strange
View attachment 93675

My take, (not a mechanical engineer... so take it with a few grains of salt), is that aluminum is potentially the wrong material for that cap. It seems that shimano may be onto something with a plastic cap that deforms if/when the axle bends and/or expands with heat. It's been said elsewhere in this thread... but I'm a very seasoned bike mechanic and while I don't make my living doing it, I easily could. I checked my e13 cranks on both my and my wife's m20 rise's religiously, as much as every ride. I had them installed properly, read all of the documentation and updates on the correct install methods (from both orbea and e13) and that didn't stop the crank arms from falling off.

Since putting shimano XT cranks on my bike, and shimano deore (really, non series) cranks on my wife's bike... I've not had a single issue with this. In fact, I realized the other day that I had ridden my rise for about 4 months without checking the cranks on my personal m20. Checked them the other day, and they were still just as tight as the day I put them on, and the spindle shows no cracks, thread issues and the end caps were still as tight as they needed to be.

 

[Bigtuna00]

The caps are not for retention. The caps are for preload ("pre" as in "before tightening"). If you crank falls off, it's not because of the cap. It's because the crank bolts were loose. The caps don't have enough torque or material to keep your cranks on under any non-trivial load.

The plastic design of the Shimano caps is to prevent you for over-tightening the preload, not to retain the crank at different temperatures.

 

[ebsocalmtb]

The caps are not for retention. The caps are for preload ("pre" as in "before tightening"). If you crank falls off, it's not because of the cap. It's because the crank bolts were loose. The caps don't have enough torque or material to keep your cranks on under any non-trivial load.

The plastic design of the Shimano caps is to prevent you for over-tightening the preload, not to retain the crank at different temperatures.

I agree that the caps are not for retention generally, but they clearly play a part. From my pov/experience... it seems that there is some amount of deformation of the aluminum ep8 spindle occurring. Whether that's from the installation of the pinch bolts on the cranks, or if it's from heat cycles of the spindle or if it's from the interface (splined along with threaded pre-load end cap along with taper/friction from the portion of the crank that pinches on the non-splined part of the spindle...) I do not know. What seems clear to me... is that there are a few things at play causing this, and it's not as simple as pull a rubber spindle spacer and use loctite.

It seems that either the plastic pre-load end cap threads are deforming, or the whole pre-load end cap is deforming and that is stopping the pre-load cap from working it's way out. Which is a contributing factor to the fact that the shimano cranks, do not come loose. The truth is, the e13 cranks are not falling off with the aluminum pre-load end cap still attached to the spindle. Which points to the fact that the first domino, is the pre-load end cap coming off. Then the splined interface and pinch bolts, seem to fail at their respective tasks, which causes the crank arm to walk off.

I believe, if it were as simple as, "the end cap does nothing more then stop you from over-tightening the pre-load", then the e13 aluminum end cap would stay in place. Instead, there is something going on with the metallurgy and resulting design of shimano's system, that makes that more reliable. I can only assume, that the pre-load end cap is deforming in concert with the end of the spindle, which allows the crank tightening bolts to hold torque better, and to not work slop into the splined interface to the spindle. I do on the face of it, think that their purpose is that simple, but it seems that there is some deeper engineering going on.

After all, shimano is really a metallurgy and forging company at its' core, that makes bike and fishing products. If they had the opportunity to leverage their in house forging or machining, they are going to. The whole situation from top to bottom, has me looking at their hollowtech II interface, thinking that there is just more going on then what you see at surface value... especially since they were confident enough to use a hollow spindle on the ep8 when it was tested with their own cranks.

 

[cookie70]

Since putting shimano XT cranks on my bike, and shimano deore (really, non series) cranks on my wife's bike... I've not had a single issue with this.

Great to hear. My local dealer is looking after it. I have asked them to secure some 8150 cranks in 165mm regardless of what the orbea warranty outcome is.