Hi all, how to decide which E mtb in au

[ScuzzII]

Hi all, E mtb is a fantastic site.
Great reading
I'm 56 y old , 6 foot tall , 73 kg and a former enduro / motorcross rider. I hired 3 e mtbs last week for a day each. A 2019 BMC AMP trailfox, a Specialised 2019 levo comp and a 2020 Giant Reign E+ 2. Did 30 to 50 kms on each. What a blast. Fire trails, switch back narrow trails through narrow trails , long uphills/downhills and rocky ledges. Loved the feeling of going as fast uphill ( almost ) as downhill. Annoyingly the Giant left me stranded on the hill with zero battery after 2.5 hours of full turbo flat out up hills ( i did watch it drain and thought how much further can i go ?)
I'm addicted.
Now the hard part.
Got Aus $8000 to $9500 to spend on a 2020 model only ( not going for 2019). There are bargains out there.
Done lots of research. Lots of European/ USA bikes not readily avail ( ie YT and Fezzeri look great) and with no service back up. By the looks of it, most brands will have some sort of warranty issue on their bikes in the first year or two and I need a local bike shop where I can drop it in and get it back quickly. That rules out my fave of Rocky Mountain Altitude ( main dealer is in another state) and the BMC.
As my local helpful e mtb dealer ( sells Specialised/ Giant/ Norco/ Merida/BMC ) said, "I've got all their motors and parts. Next day service return, including motor replacement " ( and I believe him based on mate's purchases)
Current options in Australia are
2020 Specialised levo comp or expert ( need the extra battery life of the expert but not the forks upgrade).
2020 Specialised Kenevo .Given I like to go downhill fast, looks like a better option than levo, especially with the 2.1 motor.
2020 Giant Reign E+ 0
2020 Norco VLT C1
2020 Merida 160 9000 series
Trek Rail 9.8

Process of elimination first
I m less interested in ;
- Specialised with their widespresd Bose motor problems ( even if they do get fixed under warranty)
- Bosch Gen 4 motors due to their noise probs ( good to have silence in the forest ) although emtb mode sounds good and it appears ultra reliable. This possibly rules out Trek Rail 9.8 although a good deal may sway me

After eliminating the above two issues of Brose / Bosch motors, I'm left with the reliable Yamaha CX4, and Shimano 8000 motors.
That leaves
2020 Giant Reign E+ 0
2020 Norco VLT C1
2020 Merida 160 9000 series
( although I still like the Specialised Kenevo / Trek Trail 9.8)
Extra battery for Giant/ Norco/Merida looks good too

They all appear to be great bikes and equivalent prices if various specials are chased up.
Cant test ride these other upper end models over the type of tracks I want to use them on.
Those bike shops that sell them do not allow hires / mountain track use as they do not have demos ( Adelaides a smallish emtb town)

Is the above reasoning sound ?

At the end of the day any top end 2020 bike at a good price would be good ( although prob not a Specialised due to motor issues )

What would the emtb forum buy out of these avail bikes ?

Thanks heaps

 

[Shane(NZ)]

Is the Norco a Range or Sight?
Is the Kenevo a Comp or Expert?

 

[ScuzzII]

Norco Range
Kenevo Expert not high on my list as wary of their motor issues AND would need a big discount

 

[Pdoz]

Giant warranty in oz is amazing, the reign has an alloy frame so potentially more forgiving of motorbike rider style abuse. So it's the smart choice if you can live with a relatively conservative brand.

Norco know how to build bikes for riders....so you need to ride one if you're a mountain bike rider as well as a motorbike rider ( vs a motorbike rider discovering mountain bikes)

 

[Shane(NZ)]

They are pretty high end bike's, all going to be great rides.
Range and Kenevo are alittle more DH style wise,if you have mean tracks where you are and keen on that.
Out of the others I probley go the Trek depending on price and if you are keen on the big wheels.
Giant still 500wh battery? my wife has a 19 Trance e+0 , the motor has good torque at lower cadence than my Gen 2,not had any problems with hers.In NZ is quite good pricing for spec.
maybe decide if you want big battery?,27.5 or 29 wheels?,DH or Enduro?
Surely specialized have sorted the engine problems by now.

Best of luck, fun time's ahead

 

[CjP]

Don’t succumb to the Specialized motor issue saga, they just sell a shit load more so you will hear of more failures. I’m on my second Kenevo and still ride them both 2019 and 2020. Brother also has a 2020 and we smash everything and anything. Ultimate bike for downhill yet still does XC and everything in between just as good. Defiantly go for an expert as the bigger battery allows you the option to go on big rides.
It is a tank but if your a moto rider then it should feel like an XC bike in comparison.
My name is Christian and I am a Specialized Kenevo whore.

 

[Rusty]

Some of your suppositions are based on flawed data so you are closing the field for no good reason.
Having played on a few different 2020 models and owning a Scott (Shimano) and Speshy (Brose) I found the Bosch G4 noisier than the Brose but arguably quieter than the Shimano and a lot quieter than the Yamaha. I think riding a few will give you a better perspective on this.

As far as motor reliability goes I think the Brose is probably as reliable as any. We seem to hear of more issues but that is probably because in many places they outsell other brands 3:1 - 5:1.

Being not too heavy at 75Kg (compared to a lot of us 100kg+ Clydesdales) battery size/range probably is not an issue. The thing to remember is that the bigger the battery, the higher the weight. Personally, I hardly noticed the weight difference when I had the 504Wh or 700Wh in my Levo but appreciated the added range of the 700Wh as no matter what motor I tested, with the 500Wh battery I was around 40km range on the tracks I ride and needed 20% more to do the loops I enjoy.

With all the above and whatever anyone else puts in, there are 2 things that are to me crucial.
1. Dealer support - nothing beats a dealer that understands ebikes and will go the extra mile.
2. How the bike rides. Some frame/suspension designs just don't work for me and no matter how I swap components I just never feel comfortable with. This also includes how the motors put the power down. I kind of like the low end torque of the Yamaha but think the Shimano feels more 'natural' - however, the Bosch EMTB mode just fricking rocks.

 

[Rusty]

My name is Christian and I am a Specialized Kenevo whore.

 

[wepn]

I'm not qualified to comment because I've never ridden any of the others you've mentioned but I'll offer my opinion anyway. I'm sure the Rocky Mountain Attitude would be great & I'd like to go for a spin on one but my MY19 Kenevo has been bulletproof & every time I ride it I'm reminded what a great bike it is.

 

[InRustWeTrust]

Look at the Vitus e-sommet , soo much bike for the money with a Shimano E-8000 motor and fox dpx2 .

If you buy a Vitus you can put the extra spare money on a 700 battery.

 

[Rusty]

Whatever you do, go alu, not carbon. Carbon is a great material for 10kg XC bikes, but for serious long travel bikes it’s an industry con. Especially for emtb where weight is less of an issue going uphill.

Not really. Carbon has a completely different feel to Alu. I would rather ride Carbon if I can't have Carbon Steel.

 

[brash]

Honestly, get one from the shop closest or within an easy drive to you.

You WILL have issues, be it major or not. Having that relationship with your LBS makes things so much easier when things go wrong.

I learned that lesson the hard way, I'm paying for it a bit now.

 

[AusE]

Ive got the Merida e9000 and cant fault it, great spec for the money. I easily get 50k rides in and usually have one or two bars left. I just ride it like a normal bike and only use trail ,boost when its required. Whatever you end up with it'll be a blast.

 

[CjP]

My brother had an e9000 and it was a great bike. I still think they are the best value for money with good customer support in Australia.
Their only let down is no real gravity option. While still very capable, the difference is night and day. This was our solution

 

[ScuzzII]

Thank you everyone.
All great advice.
In order , for a 2020 model
1st.
I have to buy local. Need a good local dealer who can replace motors etc quickly under warranty. Rules out Vitus/ Rocky Mountain etc even though they have standard parts etc. That means it s either Norco/ Merida/ Giant/ Trek/ Specialised ( now back on the list as I'm not so worried about their motor reliability thanks to everyone) .Cannondale do not seem high on anybody's list.
2nd
How the bike fits me. BMC/ Giant/ Specy all felt good over 3 hours each of hard riding although that depended on the type of trail/ climb / rocks / switchbacks etc etc. I'm betting they will all feel ok in a 3 hour test ride at various segments over varied terrain
3rd
What riding I do ? Like everyone, a bit of everything , preferably at speed rather than tricky trials type stuff
4th
Price. Which high end bike is on big discount. At the moment , Giant Trance E + 0 pro Au $3000 discounted from $11500 to $8500 looks the go if no other company discounts their bike. Specialised are also discounting levo bikes at mome ( not Kenevo) . I suspect Norco and Merida will follow soon .
5th
Battery. and motor combo. Arguably this should be higher up the list. Need long battery time - 640 upwards ( I ran the Giant flat miles from the test shop) and 70 Nm torque up wards ( makes a difference for us older blokes going on long uphills )
6th
paying extra big dollars for lots of carbon not worth it
7th
I'll be happy with any of them that meet the above

Thanks again

 

[ScuzzII]

Giant warranty in oz is amazing, the reign has an alloy frame so potentially more forgiving of motorbike rider style abuse. So it's the smart choice if you can live with a relatively conservative brand.

Norco know how to build bikes for riders....so you need to ride one if you're a mountain bike rider as well as a motorbike rider ( vs a motorbike rider discovering mountain bikes)

Hi Pdoz, thank you . You got me thinking. What does your last line mean ? I'm the last. Sold off the motorcross stuff and now addicted to e mtbing

 

[HORSPWR]

See if you can get a ride on the Merida, I'm sure you won't be disappointed, I love my 2019 900e, it's a blast!

 

[ScuzzII]

My brother had an e9000 and it was a great bike. I still think they are the best value for money with good customer support in Australia.
Their only let down is no real gravity option. While still very capable, the difference is night and day. This was our solution

View attachment 27803

Great photo

 

[Husky430]

See if you can get a ride on the Merida, I'm sure you won't be disappointed, I love my 2019 900e, it's a blast!

I'll second that, great value for money and although they are not a full on DH bike, you won't be disappointed or be able to wipe the smile off your face. Think it's something to do with the extra weight of an ebike making them feel much more planted.

 

[Pdoz]

Hi Pdoz, thank you . You got me thinking. What does your last line mean ? I'm the last. Sold off the motorcross stuff and now addicted to e mtbing

People coming at this from a purely mountain bike perspective seem to like a different handling package compared to mitorbike riders getting into mountain bikes, at least that has been my observation living in Maffra ( shane watts home town from the motorbike side, leonie picton from mountain bikes)

All my ( very good) motorbike riding mates are hitting the old isde /a4de / illegal motorbike single line on emtb now - so chewed out rough nasty crappy messy FUN. None of this groomed flow trails the mtb guys seem to need . So we want a stable, strong, reliable bike that might not be as playful but at least gets us through several thousand km of rocks. The treks seem great ( but ride like a wheelbarrow) , giant almost as good.

Then we have the guys who were already into mtb riding as a cross training tool for their motorbike riding. These guys like " playfull" bikes - short chainstays so they can flick the back around , long and low etc - they tend to stick to mtb parks rather than the illegal trails, and they love the norco / specialized.

then we have the middle ground - merida. Bloody good bikes but frk that shimano feels gutless after you've ridden a giant ( yamaha pwx) - btw, ignore earlier advice about yamaha being noisy / low cadence, the 2020 motor fixed all that.

 

[CjP]

Thank you everyone.
All great advice.
In order , for a 2020 model
1st.
I have to buy local. Need a good local dealer who can replace motors etc quickly under warranty. Rules out Vitus/ Rocky Mountain etc even though they have standard parts etc. That means it s either Norco/ Merida/ Giant/ Trek/ Specialised ( now back on the list as I'm not so worried about their motor reliability thanks to everyone) .Cannondale do not seem high on anybody's list.
2nd
How the bike fits me. BMC/ Giant/ Specy all felt good over 3 hours each of hard riding although that depended on the type of trail/ climb / rocks / switchbacks etc etc. I'm betting they will all feel ok in a 3 hour test ride at various segments over varied terrain
3rd
What riding I do ? Like everyone, a bit of everything , preferably at speed rather than tricky trials type stuff
4th
Price. Which high end bike is on big discount. At the moment , Giant Trance E + 0 pro Au $3000 discounted from $11500 to $8500 looks the go if no other company discounts their bike. Specialised are also discounting levo bikes at mome ( not Kenevo) . I suspect Norco and Merida will follow soon .
5th
Battery. and motor combo. Arguably this should be higher up the list. Need long battery time - 640 upwards ( I ran the Giant flat miles from the test shop) and 70 Nm torque up wards ( makes a difference for us older blokes going on long uphills )
6th
paying extra big dollars for lots of carbon not worth it
7th
I'll be happy with any of them that meet the above

Thanks again

1. Definitely good lbs support is key
2. Initial fit is important but things can be changed to make it better if you enjoy modifying.
3. Choose the bike based on your most preferred style. I run a slacked out 200mm travel Kenevo that shouldn’t be able to climb tight technical trails according to some people yet it does. It does it better than I ever could on my old analogue.
4. Price is a hard one as everyone’s situation it different but as much as it hurt me to hand over the cash I haven’t given it a second thought since I bought the bike. Remember you will ride this thing a lot. Most likely more than the moto. Comparing to my cousins who rides motos, I ride twice as much as they do, if not more. Then there’s the fitness aspect. Good value is what I’m trying to get at.
5. Yes! While 500w/h batteries will do most of your rides comfortably it’s always nice to know you have extra cells to get lost if you must or take on those massive rides without having to worry about a second battery or piggy back. Motor torque is not as much a bigger issue to me but then I’m only 75kgs. It is nice to have the extra grunt though. Riding my two bikes side by side there’s a tiny bit of difference, most people wouldn’t even know it.
6. Carbon is sexy af but yes not really worth it unless you have money to burn.

At the end of the day I feel no one can tell you what to buy, you just have to choose what specs are really important to you and what your gut feeling says when you sit on it.

 

[HORSPWR]

then we have the middle ground - merida. Bloody good bikes but frk that shimano feels gutless after you've ridden a giant ( yamaha pwx) - btw, ignore earlier advice about yamaha being noisy / low cadence, the 2020 motor fixed all that.

I don't know which bike you rode but my Shimano in boost mode is ridiculous, so much so that I rarely use it, even trail is way more than I need most of the time, 75% of my ride is usually in eco mode. @Husky430

 

[ScuzzII]

People coming at this from a purely mountain bike perspective seem to like a different handling package compared to mitorbike riders getting into mountain bikes, at least that has been my observation living in Maffra ( shane watts home town from the motorbike side, leonie picton from mountain bikes)

All my ( very good) motorbike riding mates are hitting the old isde /a4de / illegal motorbike single line on emtb now - so chewed out rough nasty crappy messy FUN. None of this groomed flow trails the mtb guys seem to need . So we want a stable, strong, reliable bike that might not be as playful but at least gets us through several thousand km of rocks. The treks seem great ( but ride like a wheelbarrow) , giant almost as good.

Then we have the guys who were already into mtb riding as a cross training tool for their motorbike riding. These guys like " playfull" bikes - short chainstays so they can flick the back around , long and low etc - they tend to stick to mtb parks rather than the illegal trails, and they love the norco / specialized.

then we have the middle ground - merida. Bloody good bikes but frk that shimano feels gutless after you've ridden a giant ( yamaha pwx) - btw, ignore earlier advice about yamaha being noisy / low cadence, the 2020 motor fixed all that.

Thanks Pdoz. More great stuff to reflect upon. As someone said, its addictive reading about this stuff AND riding mtbs.

 

[ScuzzII]

1. Definitely good lbs support is key
2. Initial fit is important but things can be changed to make it better if you enjoy modifying.
3. Choose the bike based on your most preferred style. I run a slacked out 200mm travel Kenevo that shouldn’t be able to climb tight technical trails according to some people yet it does. It does it better than I ever could on my old analogue.
4. Price is a hard one as everyone’s situation it different but as much as it hurt me to hand over the cash I haven’t given it a second thought since I bought the bike. Remember you will ride this thing a lot. Most likely more than the moto. Comparing to my cousins who rides motos, I ride twice as much as they do, if not more. Then there’s the fitness aspect. Good value is what I’m trying to get at.
5. Yes! While 500w/h batteries will do most of your rides comfortably it’s always nice to know you have extra cells to get lost if you must or take on those massive rides without having to worry about a second battery or piggy back. Motor torque is not as much a bigger issue to me but then I’m only 75kgs. It is nice to have the extra grunt though. Riding my two bikes side by side there’s a tiny bit of difference, most people wouldn’t even know it.
6. Carbon is sexy af but yes not really worth it unless you have money to burn.

At the end of the day I feel no one can tell you what to buy, you just have to choose what specs are really important to you and what your gut feeling says when you sit on it.

Thanks Christian. You hit the nail on the head with point number 4. Once you buy something you love, assuming it does not bankrupt you, the price is not thought about again. Worked out over 2 years of a bikes life ( thats another topic . How long do these bikes last ? ) , an extra $2000 to go up a model or two is about $18 per week . No ducati owner ever thought, "gee wish I had of bought a Suzuki"

 

[ScuzzII]

Not really. Carbon has a completely different feel to Alu. I would rather ride Carbon if I can't have Carbon Steel.

Thanks Rusty. Just when I had discounted carbon for an alloy I read this. If you have time, apart from being lighter for pops on jumps/ wheelies , flicking it around, etc is there another type of different feel ?

 

[MitchF]

Merida 160 ??

 

[Rusty]

Not so much lighter, but just a better feel.
I think a lot of the clanks and rattles that people complain about on the Bosch Gen4 are more to bad frame design. A couple little plates welded in the big hollow frame tubes and no funny noises. Water formed alloy tubes are great for reducing cost and weight but, yeah well.

Y'all old enough to remember when MX bikes were steel framed so should appreciate the difference. I was a test rider back then and the only reason the Japanese went to alloy was that it was a lot cheaper to produce frames as much more could be done by machine.
I did have the opportunity to test a 250 2-stroke in a mostly carbon frame and damn that was sweet. Sadly they never went ahead with it due to everyone else killing the smokers.

 

[ScuzzII]

Not so much lighter, but just a better feel.
I think a lot of the clanks and rattles that people complain about on the Bosch Gen4 are more to bad frame design. A couple little plates welded in the big hollow frame tubes and no funny noises. Water formed alloy tubes are great for reducing cost and weight but, yeah well.

Y'all old enough to remember when MX bikes were steel framed so should appreciate the difference. I was a test rider back then and the only reason the Japanese went to alloy was that it was a lot cheaper to produce frames as much more could be done by machine.
I did have the opportunity to test a 250 2-stroke in a mostly carbon frame and damn that was sweet. Sadly they never went ahead with it due to everyone else killing the smokers.

Hi Rusty, that s a hell of a CV you have and a great explanation. Thank you

 

[Pdoz]

I don't know which bike you rode but my Shimano in boost mode is ridiculous, so much so that I rarely use it, even trail is way more than I need most of the time, 75% of my ride is usually in eco mode. @Husky430

My problem was stepping from a pwx giant onto a merida 160 ( and the same feeling onto a shimano powered focus jam) . Admittedly these have been on rides with people better than me so I was already in full assist on the giant , so dropping from 90 to 70 ish torque with exhausted legs probably wasn't fair.

When riding alone I also use minimal assistance, but when tackling steep rocky evil motorbike style single line I really appreciate the instant high torque of the giant. It almost makes up for my complete lack if skill and stamina.

 

[Pdoz]

Thanks Christian. You hit the nail on the head with point number 4. Once you buy something you love, assuming it does not bankrupt you, the price is not thought about again. Worked out over 2 years of a bikes life ( thats another topic . How long do these bikes last ? ) , an extra $2000 to go up a model or two is about $18 per week . No ducati owner ever thought, "gee wish I had of bought a Suzuki"

Warranty lasts about 2 years, at the end of warranty we have to decide if it's time to bite the bullet.....

One local has close to 8000 km of HARD single line riding on his 2019 trek. He carries 1/2 spare batteries and disappears into the bush several times a week . Serious hard core crazy ex enduro motorbike rider.

os I have a photo somewhere of a ducati rider wishing he had a suzuki. ( ok, it was a cagiva elephant) Silly bugger tried getting into a jumping contest with my honda....out the back if arkaroola....bent his rear marzochi ( I had ohlins)