Has having an Ebb changed your view on having a battery car?

[paul-g]

Would love an electric car, but here in Australia they are still too damn expensive.

wouldn`t get yoiu to Alice neither

 

[Pigin]

Now then ...

who would want to buy a 3 year old Tesla where the batteries could potentially need replacing which could cost well over £15k to replace

Can’t wait to get my battery lawnmower out soon

Yep as I thought and not only are the replacement batteries an issue but I read somewhere that the onboard “computers’ are classed as a consumable by Teasla.

I’ve had an battery mower for 2 years now and it’s brilliant. Of course it’s a Bosch ?

 

[Tubby G]

I’ve had an battery mower for 2 years now and it’s brilliant. Of course it’s a Bosch ?

My lawnmower is a Yard Force so not sure which motor or battery it uses ?

 

[Paul Mac]

Tesla warranties the battery for 8 years and the rest of the car is 4 years, so you won't be buying a new battery after 3 years.

 

[Zimmerframe]

This one is quite interesting Bjorn bought back his original 2013 Tesla.

It had it's first battery changed due to a fault at 86,000km. The present one has done 260,000km (in just over 7 years) and is showing a 13% drop in capacity - though as he explains, Tesla have locked down some of the power on the older batteries temporarily whilst they do some work to try and extend the range/capacity on the older packs, so that 13% loss could be less when they open things up again.

 

[Pigin]

13% loss. Interesting. That’s loss in range not horse power as per an ICE with 150k+ on the clock.

The fault that was fixed would give me nightmares if the car was out of warranty. As and when I swoop then the warranty will have to be amazing and no doubt it will be a huge expense if the vehicle is not new.

 

[PAC]

That is, by definition, why I'm calling your post a fanboy alert! There are all too many illustrations in your fanpraise that, perhaps, hold true for you specifically, but don't for 90% of other people (Teslas being cheaper? Oh please - they are not (FACT!) Charging being cheaper? it's not! (we pay EUR 0,4/Kw, for electricity and charging on a public charger will cost pretty much as much as a regular gas tank (FACT). Infrastructure is far, FAR from being everywhere (FACT). Etc.

Take a deep breath and read what I wrote. I never said all supercharging was cheaper than petrol. I said I spend 1/2-1/4 the cost on electricity as I did using gasoline. That is a true statement. The details depend on how, where, and when you charge. If you exclusively supercharge the equation is very different. Not many of us do that. I also never said Teslas were cheaper. Read exactly what I said. In fact, the 90% of Tesla owners are closer to my review. This is in fact a subjective review, kibitzed here by yourself, a CALboy. Mind if I call you that? Nothing is perfect, it is what it is. If I said you couldn't pay me to go back to Windows from a Mac I'm not saying Mac is perfect, just very much better than Windows.

 

[Tubby G]

Tesla warranties the battery for 8 years and the rest of the car is 4 years, so you won't be buying a new battery after 3 years.

8 yrs or 150000 miles, whatever comes first:

Vehicle Warranty | Tesla Support United Kingdom

Find and view warranties for Tesla vehicles including New Vehicle Limited Warranty, Used Vehicle Limited Warranty and more.

www.tesla.com

So 40k miles per annum and the batteries are out of warranty after 3 years and 250 ish days

 

[Tubby G]

8 yrs or 150000 miles, whatever comes first:

Vehicle Warranty | Tesla Support United Kingdom

Find and view warranties for Tesla vehicles including New Vehicle Limited Warranty, Used Vehicle Limited Warranty and more.

www.tesla.com

So 40k miles per annum and the batteries are out of warranty after 3 years and 250 ish days

Actually that’s on the X, 100k miles on the model 3

 

[Paul Mac]

I'm finding this thread quite ironic being an emtb forum.
The OP has posed a question about EVs, at least two owners having given their honest reviews after owning for over a year.
Then the naysayers step in with no personal knowledge, just urban myths and speculation, knocking the new technology.
Sound familiar? ?

 

[Tubby G]

I'm finding this thread quite ironic being an emtb forum.
The OP has posed a question about EVs, at least two owners having given their honest reviews after owning for over a year.
Then the naysayers step in with no personal knowledge, just urban myths and speculation, knocking the new technology.
Sound familiar? ?

I’m no naysayer if you’re implying I am, I’m all for electric cars. I explained why they’re not cost effective as company cars

 

[R120]

Now then ...

I drive a company car and last year it was time to order my next model. In the UK there is a huge incentive to drive electric cars as the BIK (benefit in kind) tax rate for 20/21 on electric cars is 0%, 1% for 21/22 and 2% 22/23. Basically you pay zero or very little tax for driving an electric company car

Originally had my eyes on the Model 3, but then was tempted by the Polestar 2 or XC40 Recharge. Range isn’t an issue. Yes I drive 30-40k miles per annum (pre Covid) but also regularly stop at cafes between meetings to catch up on emails etc, so charging the car would become a destination to also work / have lunch, and you’d only charge enough to get you home and then a full charge overnight

Our company leases vehicles, and we soon found out that the issue with electric cars is that if you’re on a high annual mileage and a three year lease, basically the residual value is awful as you’re handing a car back to the lease company with 120k miles on, batteries out of warranty, and who would want to buy a 3 year old Tesla where the batteries could potentially need replacing which could cost well over £15k to replace

So, ended up ordering another petrol hybrid car as the BIK rate is still far better than the huge amount you now have to pay for diesels, but the company suffer as real world mpg for hybrids is only a round 35-40 mpg compared to typically 50-55 MPG for diesels

To answer the original question about whether having an eeb has changed my view on wanting an electric car, no it hasn’t, but as lithium battery technology in general is becoming better by the day I now try and buy ‘cordless’ wherever I can. Can’t wait to get my battery lawnmower out soon

This was my problem, I need to allow for 20k miles per annum on a lease deal and none of them where having any of it.

I also looked at Vans, as ideally that what I would want, and same deal there - the market doesn't really seem to know yet what high mileage EV's will be worth, or if there will even be a market for them - for all the good they do for the planet (I know thats a whole other debate) it does seem to me that a lot of these cars will be going to the scrap heap a lot earlier in their lifespans than ICE cars.

An EV would be good for me as I could get through company, massive tax benefits, and I have off street parking and a 3 phase power supply at my house, but actually finding a company who will sell me one was more difficult than expected

 

[Paul Mac]

I’m no naysayer if you’re implying I am, I’m all for electric cars. I explained why they’re not cost effective as company cars

Not you Tubby G at least you looked into it ?

 

[Tooks]

This was my problem, I need to allow for 20k miles per annum on a lease deal and none of them where having any of it.

I also looked at Vans, as ideally that what I would want, and same deal there - the market doesn't really seem to know yet what high mileage EV's will be worth, or if there will even be a market for them - for all the good they do for the planet (I know thats a whole other debate) it does seem to me that a lot of these cars will be going to the scrap heap a lot earlier in their lifespans than ICE cars.

An EV would be good for me as I could get through company, massive tax benefits, and I have off street parking and a 3 phase power supply at my house, but actually finding a company who will sell me one was more difficult than expected

Even a cream crackered EV battery has a second life as battery storage, and if it’s too far gone then it can still be recycled easily.

It’s still early days, a lot of established manufacturers have yet to play their hand, and the tech is slowly but surely getting better, led it has to be said by Tesla.

Nobody is saying we’ll be moving overnight to EVs, there’s going to be a long transition period and prices will come down as it all scales up.

The future isn’t as bleak as we fear, I’m sure.

 

[R120]

Even a cream crackered EV has a second life as battery storage, and if it’s too far gone then it can still be recycled easily.

It’s still early days, a lot of established manufacturers have yet to play their hand, and the tech is slowly but surely getting better, led it has to be said by Tesla.

Nobody is saying we’ll be moving overnight to EVs, there’s going to be a long transition period and prices will come down as it all scales up.

Yeah I know they can be recycled etc, it’s just the most new cars are bought on leases of some sort, and they are all based off residual values, and none really know what the longer term used values of these thing will be.

But like EMTB’s, what happens when a product goes from being one thing, to a piece of tech, and as we all know tech gets old pretty quick.

 

[Pigin]

to a piece of tech

Theres a thing. From the mouth of a Tesla sales guy “ We don’t sell cars, we sell tech”. Wowzers! In how many ways did he get that wrong!

 

[EebStrider]

Interesting thread. I’ll be replacing my car later this year, and own my own business. I always private lease, as I’ve no interest in owning a car and fretting about depreciation. Been there, done that, many many times.

So, after looking at various options, electric cars have started to get my attention, as I can run one through the business, and pay virtually no BIK. And there are tax benefits for the company too. I‘m waiting to see what BMW launch this year, and the Taycan could be an option, as the deals on those are very attractive right now. My only concern is the infrastructure.

As a petrol head, part of me is tempted to just get a new M5, but the deals on EV’s is making the decision quite difficult. My sensible head is saying EV, but my heart is screaming at me to get a twin turbo V8 while we still can!

 

[Tubby G]

Interesting thread. I’ll be replacing my car later this year, and own my own business. I always private lease, as I’ve no interest in owning a car and fretting about depreciation. Been there, done that, many many times.

So, after looking at various options, electric cars have started to get my attention, as I can run one through the business, and pay virtually no BIK. And there are tax benefits for the company too. I‘m waiting to see what BMW launch this year, and the Taycan could be an option, as the deals on those are very attractive right now. My only concern is the infrastructure.

As a petrol head, part of me is tempted to just get a new M5, but the deals on EV’s is making the decision quite difficult. My sensible head is saying EV, but my heart is screaming at me to get a twin turbo V8 while we still can!

BMW have the i4 due out later this year. It’s fast!

 

[EebStrider]

BMW have the i4 due out later this year. It’s fast!

Yeah, that looks cool. And the iX too.

 

[R120]

Really what has happened with EV’s is they are now “cool” - I think that what @Paul Mac says about similarities to EMTB is actually very true.

Up until about 3 years ago the majority of people wouldn’t buy an EV simply because they weren’t an aspirational product, which lets face it a lot of car purchases are - now they are thanks to the likes of Tesla, but also the mainstream brands getting their act together and bringing out some good products.

Much like EMTB they were not cool 3 years ago, but now with the likes of Santa Cruz fully invested they are the hottest thing in the MTB market, and become an aspirational product.

Out riding today 3 different people told me how much they want an EMTB as their next bike, and that just didn’t happen all that long ago.

Same goes with EV’s - most people I know are looking at them as viable options for their next car, mainly because they have gone from niche to aspirational in the last few years, and something that was once quirky is now cool.

 

[Rusty]

I am still waiting to see what eventuates with fuel cell technology.

No arguments that e-vehicles are fun. Had a few drags with a Tesla Model S & a Kia Stinger - lots of fun.
Some do equate modern e-vehicles with the shitty old Prius that used to waddle like a pregnant mother expecting quintuplets which is quite unfair as those old Prius were like 50% overweight and vastly underpowered

There is a lot of ideas about how green e-vehicles are and without a doubt they are greener to run... BUT.
To really make a true comparison one has to take into account the true environmental cost from dragging the ores/hydrocarbons out of the ground right up to the eventual disposal of all components. Yes one can repurpose batteries as storage devices for home use, but eventually they do have to be recycled. According to my nephew roughly 50% is the best expected from the lithium cell recycling where with lead-acid batteries it is around 95%. The big shocker is that according to data available to the US auto industry only around 8-10% of lithium is recycled currently. I am thinking this may include other lithium cells such as phone batteries but have not been able to clarify - hopefully that will rocket up in the years to come.
However, the point I am trying to make is that when commenting whether a convention car or an electric one is more eco friendly or cost effective one needs to take into account all of the energy required to construct from scratch, usage costs and the cost to deconstruct and recycle.

At a town hall meeting recently I watched someone that actually had a clue destroy a couple green party MPs when it came to the big picture. They were completely oblivious (or ignorant) that large hydrocarbon powered machinery is required to dig and extract various ores - these rely on hydrocarbons not only to fuel, but for their construction. They were also completely ignorant as to how hydrocarbons were required for the plastics that a large percentage of these electric vehicles are constructed of .... and so on.
Yes we can reduce air pollution by not burning hydrocarbon fuel in our vehicles, but they all still need it.

Back to my initial sentence ... I am still waiting to see what eventuates with fuel cell technology.
My dad had several friends that worked on this technology in the 60s & 70s that apparently was bought out by large petroleum companies and promptly shelved. I guess once legislation gets a lot tighter and the loony left starts taxing the hell out of them that the ideas researched will come to light.
Will also be interesting to see how road construction and maintenance will be paid for when the various governments no longer have the massive income from current fuel taxes.

 

[Tooks]

I am still waiting to see what eventuates with fuel cell technology.

No arguments that e-vehicles are fun. Had a few drags with a Tesla Model S & a Kia Stinger - lots of fun.
Some do equate modern e-vehicles with the shitty old Prius that used to waddle like a pregnant mother expecting quintuplets which is quite unfair as those old Prius were like 50% overweight and vastly underpowered

There is a lot of ideas about how green e-vehicles are and without a doubt they are greener to run... BUT.
To really make a true comparison one has to take into account the true environmental cost from dragging the ores/hydrocarbons out of the ground right up to the eventual disposal of all components. Yes one can repurpose batteries as storage devices for home use, but eventually they do have to be recycled. According to my nephew roughly 50% is the best expected from the lithium cell recycling where with lead-acid batteries it is around 95%. The big shocker is that according to data available to the US auto industry only around 8-10% of lithium is recycled currently. I am thinking this may include other lithium cells such as phone batteries but have not been able to clarify - hopefully that will rocket up in the years to come.
However, the point I am trying to make is that when commenting whether a convention car or an electric one is more eco friendly or cost effective one needs to take into account all of the energy required to construct from scratch, usage costs and the cost to deconstruct and recycle.

At a town hall meeting recently I watched someone that actually had a clue destroy a couple green party MPs when it came to the big picture. They were completely oblivious (or ignorant) that large hydrocarbon powered machinery is required to dig and extract various ores - these rely on hydrocarbons not only to fuel, but for their construction. They were also completely ignorant as to how hydrocarbons were required for the plastics that a large percentage of these electric vehicles are constructed of .... and so on.
Yes we can reduce air pollution by not burning hydrocarbon fuel in our vehicles, but they all still need it.

Back to my initial sentence ... I am still waiting to see what eventuates with fuel cell technology.
My dad had several friends that worked on this technology in the 60s & 70s that apparently was bought out by large petroleum companies and promptly shelved. I guess once legislation gets a lot tighter and the loony left starts taxing the hell out of them that the ideas researched will come to light.
Will also be interesting to see how road construction and maintenance will be paid for when the various governments no longer have the massive income from current fuel taxes.

Yes, it’s important to take all the carbon costs into account for EVs, just remember to do the same for ICE vehicles as well.

I’ve not seen one credible study that shows a through life carbon cost of an ICE vehicle being less than that of an EV.

EVs, at the moment, do require more energy and resource to construct up front, but after that they’re winning simply due to the fact that ICE vehicles require petrol or diesel to run. The extraction and refining of road fuels is hugely energy intensive, and that’s before you take into account the impacts of burning them.

So, yes do look at through life energy and carbon costs for EVs, just remember to do the same for ICE vehicles and include the well to wheel impacts of petrol and diesel fuels.

People will shout ‘what about the electricity generation, that’s not green’, which is a good point. Even a middling country like the UK is now generating a good chunk of its electricity via renewables, and the sums still add up. Go to Norway and the break even point over the lifetime of a car is even sooner.

The good thing about EVs is that as the electricity grid gets greener, then so do all the cars drawing from it.

I should say, I’m not in an EV because it’s ‘green’ or want to save the planet, I don’t think they’ll do that on their own. But, I do want to minimise my impact where I can, so when my last Hybrid car needed replacement at a 6 figure mileage, I decided to go the whole hog and give petrol a miss altogether. I’ve not regretted it for one minute.

I’ll be honest, I don’t get what people are scared of with EVs, we should be scared about what happens if we just carry on as we are.

 

[jerry]

the only reason renewables are there, is because they are being subsidised, not because they are economically viable. There's not a single business model in existance that could provide for the power generation (needed when cars and heating would become electrified) without burning carbons or nuclear. Not even if you cover all available space on earth in solar and put up millions of fans.

 

[jerry]

we should be scared about what happens if we just carry on as we are.

Mathematically, humanity must end if we continue to be a plague like we now are. And saving a few% of carbon emissions isn't making any difference if there are 5% more humans roaming around the earth whilst we try to (a fact all rosy green scenarios don't factor in). Luckily, mother nature has a way of dealing with plagues, some signs of which are now showing..

 

[Tooks]

the only reason renewables are there, is because they are being subsidised, not because they are economically viable. There's not a single business model in existance that could provide for the power generation (needed when cars and heating would become electrified) without burning carbons or nuclear. Not even if you cover all available space on earth in solar and put up millions of fans.

Where’s the source for that?

Let’s not just make stuff up to further a belief...

Looks like even just 5% of the Sahara covered in Solar would do the job.

The not enough power to charge electric cars if everybody had one has been busted many times. That’s not to say there aren’t challenges, but even so.

Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles | National Grid Group

Can the electricity grid cope with more EVs? And what really happens to old EV batteries? Find out the answer to these and many more questions about electric vehicles in our comprehensive EV myth-buster.

www.nationalgrid.com

 

[Tooks]

Mathematically, humanity must end if we continue to be a plague like we now are. And saving a few% of carbon emissions isn't making any difference if there are 5% more humans roaming around the earth whilst we try to (a fact all rosy green scenarios don't factor in). Luckily, mother nature has a way of dealing with plagues, some signs of which are now showing..

Yes, the elephant in the room is population growth.

I think road transport emissions are worth reducing, they are about a third of all emissions in the UK for instance. If we accept that a review of the studies last year into EV emissions show that even now they emit up to 60% less than equivalent petrol and diesel cars, even with our power grid, then it’s worth doing.

The growth in popularity of SUV type vehicles has reversed a trend in lowering ICE emissions for the last 3 years now, we need to do things differently.

If everybody did a little, collectively it would be huge.

 

[Darren]

IMHO hydrogen is a scam and electric is the future of vehicle propulsion.
Green hydrogen is currently not available for less than around £15 per kg. The oil companies (the biggest lobbying groups in the world) are backing hydrogen because they know they can create it using steam reformation of natural gas and therefore continue with their existing infrastructure and assets for a long time to come.
For hydrogen to become viable we will need massive overproduction of renewable energy because the green way to make it is electrolysis which takes around 1.8kw of energy to make 1 kw energy value of hydrogen.
Also the infrastructure necessary for hydrogen is cost prohibitive when compared to electric as it needs ships, trucks, tanks and pipelines - existing natural gas pipelines are no good as hydrogen makes steel brittle over time. It's also very difficult to contain being the smallest of all molecules, meaning it can leak from a water tight container.
Hydrogen fuel cells are more efficient than ICEs but only just.
linky

 

[Paul Mac]

I watched a really interesting documentary about the evolution of vehicle propulsion.
If the facts are true, its only luck that we have been driving fossil fuel vehicles for the last 100 years.
Apparently Nicola Tesla and Henry Ford were pals and Ford were going to use Teslas batteries to power his Ford Model T.
However an argument over production drove Ford to use a petrol powered engine, and the rest is history.
Image if he did use the batteries, with 100 years of development who knows where we would be now and how the world would be a completely different place with oil rich nations having a less desirable product.

 

[Rahr85]

i would have this if i could afford it.. (in green)

Porsche Taycan Cross Turismo launched

Like the Taycan but worry about how it would perform on gravel? The Cross Turismo is for you...

www.pistonheads.com

 

[stiv674]

Some inspiration

Thanks, although I'm still not that inspired ?

The VW E-Transporter is pretty pointless apart from City use.

Quite like the Peugeot, Vauxhall etc ones, nearly bought an Expert before I got my Transit. Still well over £40k though and obviously no second hand market yet...

Maybe by the time I'm ready to change mine, three or four years I expect, there will be more choice.