Has having an Ebb changed your view on having a battery car?

[EebStrider]

Ended up driving a BMW i3, then buying an i3S. Not bothering to get a home charger yet as topping up after a commute takes about 3 hrs on a 13A socket. Really enjoying it so far, though I'm missing the sound system of the Galaxy which was about £1500 of custom install

Youll have fun getting the bike in the back of that! ?

 

[Norange]

Youll have fun getting the bike in the back of that! ?

I decided to be logical - if I'm buying a nice car neither a post ride filthy me or the bikes are going anywhere near it. So no compromise needed. 95% of my riding was straight out of the door anyway. Gifted the Galaxy to a friend so I'm still insured on it and can use it if needed

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

My first EV and bloody love it already. Stupidly fun, traffic light drag races take me back to being in the 90’s hot hatch era

 

[Mark24]

Own 2 EV best thing I ever did, saving over £250 a month on fuel

 

[flash]

Had this for 4 weeks. Haven't lost my licence yet but it can't be too far off!

 

[PAC]

2019 Tesla M3P. At 45K miles still gets 0 mpg. Added windshield wiper fluid and recently new tires, other than that no service. Still the best car I've owned/driven in over 50+ years of driving. So easy to drive and the fastest thing on the road at 0-60 in 2.8 sec. Well other than another Tesla that is. Except for having to compete with my wife and kids who all prefer to drive the Tesla, no problems. And with software updates over the air, it just keeps getting better and better. Drives itself on my 150-mile oneway commute to work, and then back. I just get in and say, navigate to work or navigate home.

 

[PAC]

And for me, the cost of miles is at most 1/4 the cost of gas/petrol. Half of my driving charges are free at work, and maybe $50/month at home. When I occasionally have to use a supercharger the cost is 1/4-1/3 that of conventional fuel.

 

[apac]

I'm currently looking into building a kit car like a Westfield or Caterham Lotus 7 type sports car for road and track. I'm going to Stoneleigh in Warwickshire this weekend to a kit car show. I will be hoping to see electric conversions that are inspiring enough for me to spend money in the near future. Westfield are currently waiting to release their first E roadster, I just hope they manage to keep the weight down like on their I/C cars. A 600kg E roadster with module batteries would be a dream.

can you imagine...

 

[Funkeydunk]

Best of both worlds

 

[Paul Mac]

Best of both worlds

View attachment 87024

View attachment 87025

Can you get two ebikes on that rack?
I've got the same car, but only risked getting the one ebike rack.
Noticed nose weight for the model 3 was only about 55kg.

 

[Paul Mac]

My first EV and bloody love it already. Stupidly fun, traffic light drag races take me back to being in the 90’s hot hatch era

View attachment 86997

That S version looks like a little M car

 

[Funkeydunk]

Can you get two ebikes on that rack?
I've got the same car, but only risked getting the one ebike rack.
Noticed nose weight for the model 3 was only about 55kg.

Yeah I have a Levo too, I take the batteries out and the seat and post out so combined weight is 42kg approx.

 

[Doomanic]

How much does the rack weigh?

 

[Funkeydunk]

How much does the rack weigh?

No idea TBH, not had a problem yet.

 

[Mikerb]

I live in a rural village. Nearest shop is 8 miles away and thats probably the closest charging station as well. I appreciate there are some Electric car fans in the posts a bove but for me they are complete con. The most efficient fuel/engine by far is diesel and there is no valid reason not to continue using diesel for decades yet. There is no valid environmental argument ....and yes I know that is controversial....but only if the only voices you listen to, are those with either a political or financial incentive to continue with the human activity induced global warming farce.
So at a time when massive investment has been made, over decads, in creating ICEs running diesel as a fuel, their most reliable, most economical and most powerful ( and incidentally least CO2 emitting...not that that matters), we are all soon to be forced to buy massively overpriced cars which have little or no proven record of longevity, most having limited range, and all being dependant on electricity to charge, which is rapidly increasing in price. Then of course there are the Hybrids.............and they are a complete joke......created only to displace the former business tax discounts previously applied to diesel. Most have a pathetic electric only range and then rely on a petrol engine that struggles to tow around the extra weight and therefore does poor MPG and offers poor performance.
The production of Lithium is a mining enterprise with conditions often worse than the early days of coal mining........and there is still no feasible recycling facility.
There has to be a far better technological alternative to petrol and diesel than lithium powered electric motors, and the motor industry is perfectly capable of delivering that if unshackled from political interference. One that delivers similar pricing, range, reliability, power, functionality and longevity as the current breed of diesel vehicles.
I will be running my diesel T5 and BMW until that happens!!

 

[Paul Mac]

I live in a rural village. Nearest shop is 8 miles away and thats probably the closest charging station as well. I appreciate there are some Electric car fans in the posts a bove but for me they are complete con. The most efficient fuel/engine by far is diesel and there is no valid reason not to continue using diesel for decades yet. There is no valid environmental argument ....and yes I know that is controversial....but only if the only voices you listen to, are those with either a political or financial incentive to continue with the human activity induced global warming farce.
So at a time when massive investment has been made, over decads, in creating ICEs running diesel as a fuel, their most reliable, most economical and most powerful ( and incidentally least CO2 emitting...not that that matters), we are all soon to be forced to buy massively overpriced cars which have little or no proven record of longevity, most having limited range, and all being dependant on electricity to charge, which is rapidly increasing in price. Then of course there are the Hybrids.............and they are a complete joke......created only to displace the former business tax discounts previously applied to diesel. Most have a pathetic electric only range and then rely on a petrol engine that struggles to tow around the extra weight and therefore does poor MPG and offers poor performance.
The production of Lithium is a mining enterprise with conditions often worse than the early days of coal mining........and there is still no feasible recycling facility.
There has to be a far better technological alternative to petrol and diesel than lithium powered electric motors, and the motor industry is perfectly capable of delivering that if unshackled from political interference. One that delivers similar pricing, range, reliability, power, functionality and longevity as the current breed of diesel vehicles.
I will be running my diesel T5 and BMW until that happens!!

I get the feeling you don't like EVs?
How's your VCR holding up?
Sorry joking, joking.
I get what you're saying, they're certainly not for everyone one at this stage, but wouldn't go back to ICE.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I will be running my diesel T5 and BMW until that happens!!

My diesel t6 (which I love) when I filled up today cost this (£115) Add road tax, servicing cost, oil, etc etc.

On the other end of the spectrum, my new BMW i3 has minimal running costs.

At a public charger the total cost from 0 to 100% is £8.40 to fill up. Or free if I charge at many locations (Tesco). That’ll give me 175 miles.

Then there’s the fun, or performance aspect of it. It’s one of the best cars I’ve ever driven in the fun to cost ratio!

It’s always connected, meaning in the cold can send a command to it (or via a schedule) precondition it, so it’s warm (or cool in the summer) when I get in it.

It truly feels next gen, and I believe despite some downsides is leaps and bounds ahead of a regular ICE.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

The most efficient fuel/engine by far is diesel and there is no valid reason not to continue using diesel for decades yet.

Interested in how you work this out? What are you basing this on?

 

[Mikerb]

I get the feeling you don't like EVs?
How's your VCR holding up?
Sorry joking, joking.
I get what you're saying, they're certainly not for everyone one at this stage, but wouldn't go back to ICE.

HAha...my career was as an IT Consultant so I am not against modern technology...........only poor technology.

@Rob Rides EMTB ...........my BMW is fully connected........I can lock/unlock/switch light on and off/pre heat etc all from my phone........and it tells my garage if it has a fault or needs servicing..........all technology that has nothing to do with electric cars.
Its a full 5 seater luxury car developing 185bhp and returns 55mpg . OK diesel is expensive at the moment for reasons we all know...........at what point do you reckon the lost tax revenue from the increase in electric cars prompts a sudden increase in road tax for them? Not long now I reckon. The lost revenue from declining diesel/petrol will be massive.........take 2 guesses what will taxed heavilly instead! Modern diesels are low Co2 emitters and since road tax is still stupidly based on Co2 emission guess how that loss in revenue will be replaced?
So OK, currently there are incentives to buy electric so make hay while the sun shines, but how much do you reckon the second hand value of an electric car will be 4 years down the road? No govt grant to purchase, 4 years of running a lithium power plant charging to full and often running to near full discharge ( virtually always on a hybrid) which we all know is kiss of death for lithium batteries.........would you pay much for one? Meanwhile used car prices for diesel and petrol cars in increasing!! It tells you where the market is!!
For me hydrogen cell technology has more promise although insufficient investment is available currently to maximise that potential. Beyond that........mini nuclear ( fusion).
Meanwhile the best estimates of world oil reserves are that they are sufficient for 50 years and that is without new exploration and exploitation. There is time to develop technology more sustainable and sensible than lithium batteries!!

 

[Paul Mac]

HAha...my career was as an IT Consultant so I am not against modern technology...........only poor technology.

@Rob Rides EMTB ...........my BMW is fully connected........I can lock/unlock/switch light on and off/pre heat etc all from my phone........and it tells my garage if it has a fault or needs servicing..........all technology that has nothing to do with electric cars.
Its a full 5 seater luxury car developing 185bhp and returns 55mpg . OK diesel is expensive at the moment for reasons we all know...........at what point do you reckon the lost tax revenue from the increase in electric cars prompts a sudden increase in road tax for them? Not long now I reckon. The lost revenue from declining diesel/petrol will be massive.........take 2 guesses what will taxed heavilly instead! Modern diesels are low Co2 emitters and since road tax is still stupidly based on Co2 emission guess how that loss in revenue will be replaced?
So OK, currently there are incentives to buy electric so make hay while the sun shines, but how much do you reckon the second hand value of an electric car will be 4 years down the road? No govt grant to purchase, 4 years of running a lithium power plant charging to full and often running to near full discharge ( virtually always on a hybrid) which we all know is kiss of death for lithium batteries.........would you pay much for one? Meanwhile used car prices for diesel and petrol cars in increasing!! It tells you where the market is!!
For me hydrogen cell technology has more promise although insufficient investment is available currently to maximise that potential. Beyond that........mini nuclear ( fusion).
Meanwhile the best estimates of world oil reserves are that they are sufficient for 50 years and that is without new exploration and exploitation. There is time to develop technology more sustainable and sensible than lithium batteries!!

You seem like an intelligent guy, and I'm glad this hasn't transcended into a slagging match that happens all so often on these forums, and I know I won't change your mind, but;
Electric is the way the world is now going whether we like it or not.
It is still very early days for battery technology, but there is already a solid state battery on the table, that is half the weight with twice the capacity which is much more resilient, they also have it at 98% recyclability.
Fossil fuel vehicles have had their day, and have had 100 years of development, EVs are only a decade or so old and are already arguably better than their ICE alternatives, smoother, faster, quieter and easier to live with.
But I hundred percent agree with you the government well get their pound of flesh from EV owners once the majority of people have asked them

 

[R120]

Hydrogen is the long term solution, and what most of us will be using both in our cars and in our homes in 20 years from now.

EV’s are great, but the inherent problems with manufacturing cost, charging infrastructure and electrical power generation itself mean that they will never be the permanent, but always an option.

Hydrogen is the only viable option for heavy plant, HGV’s and so on, the technology whilst not wide spread currently will replicate the experience of current ICE cars in terms of using petrol stations which will be easily converted to hydrogen pumps.

Plus whilst EV’s are relatively maintenance free their shelf life is short due to the battery degradation, so whilst short term bills are minimal, longer term ones are horrific, with many going to have nothing like the lifespan most ICE cars currently have.

 

[luna87824]

What's a EBB?

 

[Mikerb]

What's a EBB?

Electronic Brake Booster.

 

[Mikerb]

Hydrogen is the long term solution, and what most of us will be using both in our cars and in our homes in 20 years from now.

EV’s are great, but the inherent problems with manufacturing cost, charging infrastructure and electrical power generation itself mean that they will never be the permanent, but always an option.

Hydrogen is the only viable option for heavy plant, HGV’s and so on, the technology whilst not wide spread currently will replicate the experience of current ICE cars in terms of using petrol stations which will be easily converted to hydrogen pumps.

Plus whilst EV’s are relatively maintenance free their shelf life is short due to the battery degradation, so whilst short term bills are minimal, longer term ones are horrific, with many going to have nothing like the lifespan most ICE cars currently have.

....and that is where the Japanese are placing their bets. What is required to make hydrogen cell feasible is a more efficient method of producing the hydrogen. After that the storage, distribution and retail infrastructure is virtually the same as for petrol/diesel.

 

[apac]

ICE = 20% efficient at getting all energy produced to the wheels.
EV = 80%

 

[MountainBoy]

The reality is that e vehicles for all is an impossibility. I have not found any country that has an adequate supply or electrical grid that is capable of running all those e vehicles.

That's a common misconception. Not only is it not impossible for EV adoption to rapidly move to 100%, the grid will adapt just as quickly as people adopt. EV's are actually a huge boon to the viability of grid operators because they are complimentary to other power needs. That means EV's primarily charge at night when electrical demand is lowest and allow utilities to maximize the value of their transmission assets.

The grid is getting cleaner and greener every year as wind as solar are very cost effective, even when adding batteries to load balance the daily cycle. But here is a little understood fact:

EV's pollute less than gas or diesel even if you run the EV from a coal powered generating plant. The reason for this is simple: coal plants are huge and run at somewhere around 80% thermal efficiency compared to a gas car that is lucky to average 20% thermal efficiency in actual use. And that doesn't include the energy to pump the oil, refine the fuel and transport it to the point of delivery. It requires loads of energy just to make the gas. That's why oil refineries have their own dedicated power substations and why the economics of driving an EV are so favorable.

But it's a moot point because coal plants are going the way of the Dodo bird, and for economic reasons, not health or warming reasons. The grid might currently be stressed during periods of peak consumption in the late afternoon of hot, calm summer days, but Time Of Use pricing is used to encourage non-time-sensitive uses (like EV charging) to wait for lower prices when there is too much generating capacity for the demand. EV's spell higher utilization of grid operator's valuable assets and that spells record profits of which some are re-invested in infrastructure to grow the business.

Of course, the losers are the oil companies. Shed a tear for them if you wish.

 

[Mikerb]

The entire BEV push is a joke. It is difficult to think of any engineering implementation that is so completely flawed. It ranks alongside the similar politically motivated push to get everyone to change to diesel....that did not work out well for owners did it? The sooner we stop being led by the nose by politicians the sooner we get a sensibly designed engineering development path for both personal and commercial transport..
What does owning an ebike inform me about paying ( an excessive amount) to buy a BEV? Not a chance.....same applies to everyone I know.

 

[Gyre]

If anything, my experience with eMTBs and other lithium battery applications simply accentuates that current battery technology leaves a lot to be desired: Range, assist levels, cost, weight, charge time, longevity - there's a lot of compromise involved. At least the early adopters of EV cars are providing the business case to incentivize R&D investment.

 

[Mikerb]

If anything, my experience with eMTBs and other lithium battery applications simply accentuates that current battery technology leaves a lot to be desired: Range, assist levels, cost, weight, charge time, longevity - there's a lot of compromise involved. At least the early adopters of EV cars are providing the business case to incentivize R&D investment.

Certainly the main volume of new hybrid and probably BEV car purchase, is by businesses/ their employees, on lease rather than private consumers. Not surprising since if you look at the BIK ( Benefit in Kind) tax for even the most humble petrol or diesel car compared to a hybrid or BEV it gives them no real choice. Since these are typically 3 or 4 year leases they are not concerned with long term value either. If you removed the distortion provided by tax rates both BIK and road tax, you would get a true picture of consumer demand.....and I reckon it would be minimal.
ps.........as an illustration of how things are manipulated, Diesel was strangled on the basis of particulate emissions............in reality the majority of particulate emission from a car comes from its tyres........whether it is a ICE or BEV.

 

[MountainBoy]

The entire BEV push is a joke. It is difficult to think of any engineering implementation that is so completely flawed. It ranks alongside the similar politically motivated push to get everyone to change to diesel....that did not work out well for owners did it? The sooner we stop being led by the nose by politicians the sooner we get a sensibly designed engineering development path for both personal and commercial transport..
What does owning an ebike inform me about paying ( an excessive amount) to buy a BEV? Not a chance.....same applies to everyone I know.

You can improve your understanding of the current situation by understanding what is driving it. Consider carefully and learn:

EV's are currently quite expensive for a couple of primary reasons, neither one of which will have any real staying power when looking at the big picture. This means EV's will win the battle for market share with or without government help, it's just a matter of a few years for the current prices to come down. And prices will come down. Here's why:

1) Demand for EV's currently outstrips supply. For example, Tesla has been raising prices in a mostly ineffective attempt to reduce customer wait times. Many models have a 6-12 month or more wait times and that is not a good customer experience. Customers want to sign the papers and take delivery of their new car when THEY want it, not when the manufacturer is ready. Tesla has raised the prices of their cars multiple times in the last several years while growing production several fold. Even though Tesla cars lost the $7,500 federal tax credit over 3 years ago, Tesla continues to grow production by an astonishing 70% per year, the prices keep rising and the wait lists have been growing longer for years. This has led to the cars selling far above their "natural" price in a "balanced" market. Tesla currently has larger margins on EV production than ANY major manufacturer has on their internal combustion vehicles (except for boutique low volume manufacturers like Bently, Ferrari, etc.). It's around 30% profit while 15% profit is considered excellent in the auto business. Prices are high because demand outstrips supply.

2) Most manufacturer's struggle to make money on automaking and they have little experience with making EV's. That means they cannot make them as efficiently as Tesla yet. None of them sell their EV's at a profit, that means they would rather keep making and selling ICE cars and trucks. But they are not stupid and they can see that when your competitor is growing production at 70% annually, it doesn't take too many years of watching your automotive market share decline to get to the point where you lose volume efficiencies and can no longer sell your gasoline cars at a profit so they must switch or they lose the primary game they play, making and selling cars. Your finance arm cannot make good profits if you can't move the cars. This means they have to become more efficient at manufacturing or they will no longer exist. The reasons they are inefficient at making EV's are all the traditional reasons we have been over-paying for cars for decades: lack of manufacturing innovation, excessive out-sourcing, inefficient supply chains, inefficient dealership distribution model, labor unions that create inefficient workforces with little desire to perform, layers of bureaucracy and a corporate structure that is top heavy with highly compensated management. etc. etc. etc. There is a reason the average price of a new vehicle in the U.S. climbed to over $46,000 in 2020 and it was not because of EV's but because you and I have been getting ripped off for decades. But now legacy auto has to master an entirely new craft on top of all of these existing inefficiencies. But building an EV is completely different from building an ICE car. Now your engine manufacturing plants, your transmission plants and all the car designs waiting to be produced are obsolete. Engineers who specialize in exhaust systems and mufflers are obsolete. Those who design fuel injection systems, obsolete. Same with those who engineer gas tanks and fuel filling systems, gas gauges, catalytic converters, starter motors, alternators, water pumps, all obsolete.

But someone will make the cars of tomorrow so they will learn how to make the transition or someone else will make the cars instead. Either way, the prices will come down as supply catches up with demand. Because EV's actually cost LESS to build as Tesla is proving right now.

The economics of car pricing is an interesting thing to study. This whole capitalistic supply and demand thing actually works. So, those who say they will not save any money by buying an EV are mostly correct. Because the market is self-regulating. Everyone can't have the cheapest, best solution, so the price goes up until it's mostly a wash. There are people who save money by buying EV's instead of gasoline powered cars, but these people tend to be those who drive very high miles per year. Those are the people for whom an EV is the most valuable and who are willing to pay the most to be one of the lucky purchasers. Another group who comes out on top are those who can afford to treat themselves to a new car each year, or even every 2 or 3 years. Because EV's like Tesla's that have proven reliability have sky-high resale values compared to gasoline cars in a similar category. That low depreciation means it costs very little to buy a new car every couple of years.

Companies with engineering and manufacturing innovation greatness can make cars safer while simultaneously driving down the cost to produce them. They don't do it by "cheaping out", they do it by constantly striving to innovate new ways to make the product better and easier to build.

What does all this mean? You cannot stop an idea whose time has come. With or without government support, EV production will continue to increase, manufacturers will gain expertise making EV's, there will be volume efficiencies, further driving costs down, supply will catch up to demand and selling prices will become increasingly competitive in the race to see which maker can offer car buyers the most value. And I guarantee it won't be gasoline powered cars that win that race anymore than analogue MTB's will win against eMTB's.

Watch and see. The conclusion is inevitable and is going to play out a lot more quickly than most people believe. By 2028 EV's will outsell ICE.