Had new idea to optimize wear of the cassette.

[yatayata]

Hi to everybody, i'm new on this forum and would like to thx you for the usefull informations i found.
I also would like to share some thoughts about wear of the cassette on e-bikes.
Actually i run bosch gen4 with 34 chainring and slx 10-51 cassette with boost hub, i pedal only in eco-tour pushing 200 w mid usually keeping 90 rpm.
Of course depends on the steepness of the hills but i found my self most of the times on the last part of the cassette. I know i can change only single sprockets but my goal is to otpimize chainline making my gears harder and maybe also changing chainline of the chainring with 55(for superboost hub) .
My intention is to go for a 36 chainring and 9-46(e-thirteen cassette) anyone tried this set up?
Do you think should i stay with 52 chainline because the gear ratio will be enough?
Thx best regards.

 

[Alexbn921]

e-thirteen cassettes are not very durable.
A bigger front gear will use bigger rear gears with more teeth and wear longer.

Your best bet is to use an SLX or Deore Cassette with 3 XT chains and a 36 front. Swap the chains every 250-300 miles until everything wears out together. You should be able to get 1500-2000 miles from each chain for 4500-6000 from the entire drivetrain.

XT chains offer the longest mileage per dollar spent.

 

[Mikerb]

Your use of high gears and low assist modes, sounds like you are riding flat non technical trails in the main. If that is indeed the case, thats fine, but maybe you should be asking yourself whether you have the right bike for your needs. You have a powerful motor and expensive wide ranging drivetrain to tackle all that offroad terrain can throw at you. It sounds like you do not need it!

Whilst many would agree that 12 speed is over the top for an EMTB, the range of gears ( and indeed the higher motor assist modes) is there to enable tacking steep climbs and technical terrain and many believe 10 speed is probably the sweet spot to maintain the gear range but avoid the expensive cassettes.

Chainline is optimised in the middle of the cassette .....that is, the chainline is straightest from chainwheel to sprocket when on gears 5,6,7 on a 11 or 12 speed cassette. It is at its greatest angle when on the smallest and largest sprockets. So using a low power mode and the smallest sprocket places the greatest wear on the complete drivetrain. The same applies to use of the lowest gears...but then most would only use them for the toughest climbs and for a short part of their ride.

Fitting a larger chainwheel is often not as easy as it appears. With 29 er wheels and wide tyres many bikes already have very marginal clearance between the chainwheel and the chainstay........often only a few mm and a larger chainwheel could foul the chainstay. OK you could get a chainwheel/spider with a greater offset, but since the hub would still be boost your chainline would then be extreme anywhere above the last 2 or 3 small sprockets and totally unworkable on the lowest gears.

If you want to maximise the life of your chain and cassette use a selection of mid range gears changing to lower gears when the terrain calls for it.

 

[Gary]

If optomising wear is your goal you're wasting your time continuing to use 12 speed cassettes and 10 or 9 t sprockets.

Raise your chainring size considerably and choose whatever conventianal 11-XX cassette best suits your needs. preferably as close ratio as possible (especially at the small end of the cassette)

chainline in the smallest sprockets of a 12 speed cassette is exactly the same as an 8, 9, 10 or 11. chainline isn't your issue with regards to wear.
12 speed cassettes all suffer from large tooth jumps between sprockets. poorer shifting and poorer chainwrap than closer ratio smaler range 11 or 10 speed cassettes.

Basically ditch 12 speed super wide range gearing if you want longer service from your cassettes and chains. but whatever gearing you choose look after your drivetrain well. Always making sure your chain is properly lubed (but never over lubed) and regularly cleaned. And if you are not doing already teach yourself to never shift gears under load. (Even if Shimano says the cassette is optimised for shifting under load it's still never good practice)

 

[Gary]

XT chains offer the longest mileage per dollar spent.

this simply is not true

 

[yatayata]

Thx for all your advices. I was using slx chain but this time I chosed kmc e12. I will see how it works. I live in hilly area near Genova and I always commute to work with one side ortlieb full of heavy stuff. When I go in the morning is downhill but when I back to home I have 500 meters of altitude in 15 km and the final road to my house is 25 gradient of steepness. Only in that time I use e MTB mode but I never use the first sprockets. Everyday with road bike was too much and I took the possibility to have a good bike also to go trails. I also discovered link glide groupset but I don’t like the gear ratio.. Just this morning I was thinking I’d like to use some cassette from road bikes because they have much closer gear Ratio but I don’t think they are compatible with microspline…

 

[Alexbn921]

12 speed cassettes all suffer from large tooth jumps between sprockets. poorer shifting and poorer chainwrap than closer ratio smaler range 11 or 10 speed cassettes.

This is not true. Sram 12 speed cassettes are identical to the 11 speed ones with a 50 or 52 added on.

Shimano 10-45 cassette also has close spacing than some of it 11 and 10 speed ones.

Shimano 12 speed overs the best shifting ever! Sram has a better shifter , but the for actual shifting precision, Hyperglide+ is the gold standard.

 

[yatayata]

The problem with Shimano MTB cassette is they offer wide range and lots of jumps. I was looking gear ratio much closer in the last part… some like dura-ace sprockets.
It will be
11-12-13-14-15-17*-19*-21*-24*-27*-30*-34*D
Half titanium half steel.

 

[Alexbn921]

Road and mountain cassettes use different spacing. They also need specific shifters, rear derailleurs and chains.

SRAM axs would be your best bet to mix and match. They have a great gravel 1x.

 

[yatayata]

Road and mountain cassettes use different spacing. They also need specific shifters, rear derailleurs and chains.

SRAM axs would be your best bet to mix and match. They have a great gravel 1x.

Thx mate, but it will not compatible with my shimano drivetrain right?

 

[Gary]

Sram 12 speed cassettes are identical to the 11 speed ones with a 50 or 52 added on.

Er.. .no they're not

Shimano 10-45 cassette also has close spacing than some of it 11 and 10 speed ones.

On what planet is 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-45 closer spacing than 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36?

Shimano 12 speed overs the best shifting ever! Sram has a better shifter , but the for actual shifting precision, Hyperglide+ is the gold standard.

Hahahah... now THIS is just hilarious!
All wide range 12 speed mtb cassettes shift way slower and clunkier than a genuinely close ratio smaller range cassette and shorter cage smaller range rear mech does.
And having motor assist means anyone with half decent fitness shouldn't really need to run a wide ratio cassette.

A bike fitted with a 10 speed 11-36 and a short cage 10 speed shimano rear mech is night and day faster and smoother shifting than absolutely any 12 speed mtb drivetrain. Swap to an 11-25 and shifting becomes even smoother and faster. @yatayata will probably already know this as it sounds like he also rides a roadbike.
10 speed road and mtb cassettes use exactly the same spacing. (11 isn't)

I think you missed what i was actually saying in my original reply.
One of the main reasons smaller, tighter spaced cassettes and narrower range mechs shift better is because the guide pulley can be set far closer to the sprockets.
This also means the chain has more wrap around the smaller sprockets and thus allows far greater chain/cassette wear before eventually slipping under load.

 

[yatayata]

sram-xplr-xg-1251-12-speed-cassette-10-44t is compatible only with hdr

Road and mountain cassettes use different spacing. They also need specific shifters, rear derailleurs and chains.

SRAM axs would be your best bet to mix and match. They have a great gravel 1x.

i search for it but is compatible only with XDR hub which is made for road porpouse.

 

[Alexbn921]

Xdr is 1.85mm longer and depending on the hub fits mtb wheels. It is not compatible with Shimano. Some mix and match but it is not the same and will compermise shifting.

 

[yatayata]

Gary you got the point!! I just was looking at close cassette like you say but the problem is they fit only with road hub. I found there is compatibility beetween SRAM and Shimano derailleur if go keep cassette and chain of the same brand but onestly i'd like to stay with shimano and i'm interested about your argoment of 10 gears, do you think there is any chance to keep my 12v xt derailleur and run road chain 10v on 10v cassette?


Just today at the steepest climbed i looked the gear i was using. 34 front and 33 rear with tour/e mtb mode

so i don't need the first three sprockets 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51t

 

[yatayata]

Xdr is 1.85mm longer and depending on the hub fits mtb wheels. It is not compatible with Shimano. Some mix and match but it is not the same and will compermise shifting.

ok i understand. Actually i have a pair of Dt Swiss H1900 with Microspline Hub. i think they could fit XDR hub with a Sram road cassette and relative chain, and of cours also rear derailleur... Maybe at that point if i go for SRAM should i search good deals and take all togheter? I have to check some prices, maybe go for electronic too?

 

[Gary]

10 speed HG cassettes are still widely available in pretty much any ratio you'd like.

I run a 36T ring with 11-36 10 speed cassette on my Emtb (Shimano E8000 motor).. Have run that gearing for almost 4 years now and haven't ever missed a lower gear than 1:1 (36x36) and 36x11 will let me pedal to 30mph (where it becomes time to tuck and freewheel anyway)

My exact set-up is Zee FR mech, Zee 10spd shifter, Deore 11-36 cassette, cheap 36T chinese Alu 104bcd NW chainring and SRAM 10 speed chain 1030 or 1050.
my current drivetrain has doe around 5000miles and is not slipping yet. Despite the chain being worn past 1.5%
(I don't change chains, just look after the one chain I fit with the reast of the drivetrain.)

 

[yatayata]

10 speed HG cassettes are still widely available in pretty much any ratio you'd like.

Cool setup, i also was thinking to get a 36 chainring but i'm afraid i have very low space to fit like you sad, another guy in past had wrote on this forum a question like this but i don't understand if he finally did it. I also have a Focus Thron 2 fitted with rack and fenders.

 

[yatayata]

Gravel Bike Tech: Hacking SRAM Force/Red/Eagle AXS drivetrains

When SRAM launched their new electronic Force & Red road groups and Eagle mountain bike group, an additional moniker appeared: AXS. It's pronounced "acces

blog.3t.bike

combined with a double chainring front, could be a game changer.... it is possible with a spider. But at that point correct chain line still will be 52?

 

[Slapbassmunky]

For the ultimate cheap bombproof hack gears, unless you really need the spread, use....

SRAM 9 speed MTB shifter.
Shimano 10 speed MTB clutch mech.
8 speed SRAM PG 830 chain and 11/32 cassette.

This combo matches and shifts perfectly. A SRAM 8 speed 'powerpack' can be had for about £25-30. Setup the shifter so the dead shift is at the bottom of the cassette. If you're happy with a 32 at the top and can find an X0 9 speed shifter to match with a 10 speed XT clutch mech you'll have very precise shifting indeed.

For an even cheaper setup you can go SRAM 8 speed shifter, Shimano 10 speed mech, and 7 speed chain & sprocket. But you'll be looking at 12/32 instead of 11/32.

Sunrace make very good quality, affordable XDR cassettes if you can find them in stock.

 

[stressballsteve]

Just one thing to be aware of...if your smallest cog is 10 teeth or less, the freehub tends to be microspline (Shimano) or XD/XDR (SRAM) which means that on the whole you can only run 12 speed cassettes designed for the freehubs. If the smallest cog is 11t, it tends to run on Shimano HG freehub and means you can normally run 8-12 speed cassettes without too many issues.

 

[yatayata]

Thx for your advice, yes I have microspline and actually with that hub I have to choose only 12 shimano sprockets.
the only way could be go for xdr hub, so I can take road cassette but I have also to change chain and chainring. I’m thinking about to go electronic shifting and choose eagle axs. Anyone tried it on MTB?

 

[Mikerb]

Just one thing to be aware of...if your smallest cog is 10 teeth or less, the freehub tends to be microspline (Shimano) or XD/XDR (SRAM) which means that on the whole you can only run 12 speed cassettes designed for the freehubs. If the smallest cog is 11t, it tends to run on Shimano HG freehub and means you can normally run 8-12 speed cassettes without too many issues.

...and there 2 different sizes ( lengths) of HG driver and cassettes with less than 11 or 12 cogs will probably need spacers.

 

[yatayata]

...and there 2 different sizes ( lengths) of HG driver and cassettes with less than 11 or 12 cogs will probably need spacers.

I don’t think I will able to install any cassette different from 12v shimano on microspline hub. I have to change to XDR to succeed to install race cassette

 

[Gary]

Most decent hubs can be converted to XD, Microspline or HG

 

[Ordinary Human Male]

It can be reasonably expensive to swap a freehub to XD/MS/HG and doesn't represent value imo.

I have a terrible track record with cassettes. Mostly due to standing and trying to sprint out of a wrong gear choice - that seems to really kill the smallest 4 cogs.

If you are building a wheel, HG is definitely the way to go imo due to the current shortage and ridiculous prices of MS cassettes. 10-11 speed Shimano and even 12 speed SRAM is dirt cheap in comparison.

I've recently built two HG driver wheels up. Both of them with rims, spokes, rotors and hubs have been for less than the price of an MS Shimano SLX cassette. As mentioned above, 10 speed would probably be the best option - I'm just using the SRAM PG1230 cassettes with Shimano shifting gear because I already had it and 12sp Deore derailleurs are cheap to replace.

You can also buy the small replaceable cogs on a Shimano cassette individually. This can help breathe some life into your cassette if you often feel the need to stand up and punish the small cogs.

 

[Gary]

It can be reasonably expensive to swap a freehub to XD/MS/HG

Or reasonably cheap.
Dependent on what hub you're converting.
But always a lot cheaper than building another wheel.

 

[Ordinary Human Male]

But always a lot cheaper than building another wheel.

Not always. I was looking at a Hope Pro 4 HG freehub ($180 AUD). It cost me $140-160 to build each of my rear wheels.

 

[Slapbassmunky]

Not always. I was looking at a Hope Pro 4 HG freehub ($180 AUD). It cost me $140-160 to build each of my rear wheels.

What components did you use for your wheel builds, are you comparing apples with oranges? The last hope/DT rear wheel I built cost me £260 in parts alone.

 

[Gary]

Not always. I was looking at a Hope Pro 4 HG freehub ($180 AUD). It cost me $140-160 to build each of my rear wheels.

*sigh *
If you're out to make a point.
You could buy a shite prebuilt rear wheel for £10.
I thought it was fairly obvious I meant buying like for like.
A hope Freehub body is around £70 here. You won't build any decent wheel for that.

 

[yatayata]

actually I run Dt Swiss h1900 and even if they are quite heavy I found them very robust and I don’t want change them, I was thinking I can change only the last part of the hub doing the upgrade to racklet Sistem and switch to XDR. I think I’m going to spend about 60-70.
Than I could install race cassette and Maibe even electronic eagle asx groupset