Hacking

[PeteIOM]

It's funny but the amount of threads I read on hacking/derestricting eMTB to go faster (I have no interest in doing this aside from the legal issues, my battery has enough to cope with) I hardly ever see anyone post warning of invalidating the warranty.
Who would spend that kind of money on a new bike and throw the warranty out the window as the first thing they do!
Seems totally mad to me.

 

[Slowroller]

You can just remove your dongle and no one is the wiser.

 

[PeteIOM]

Hmmm that's not what my lbs told me.
The guy said whilst talking about the limits etc
"You can get dongles to make them faster but we don't recommend it. If we need to send the unit back for warranty work I believe they can plug it in and tell what speed it has been worked at"

Now, I have no idea... this is my first eBike and have no reason to not believe the lbs.

 

[JSpencer77]

I really see no need to make my Levo any faster. Riding true single track mtb trails, I wouldn't want it to go any faster, as the trails aren't really designed for it. If I'm going over 20 mph, the bike is pointed downhill and the motor isn't what's giving me the speed.

 

[Hedge Monkey]

Also who’s to say that you aren’t riding on private land.
The restrictions are law not for protection of the battery or motor.
Unlocking a e bike dosont put out any extra power just keeps on assisting
Not that I agree or not just a thought?

 

[EddieJ]

This is what Bosch have to say on the matter.


Is tuning permitted?

 

[ccrdave]

I think all manufacturer say that in one form or another but legally it would be very remiss of them if they didnt, liability mitigation might not be important in europe but it is in Usa and most manufacturers sell globally
How they can tell if a bike has been “hacked” is another matter

 

[PeteIOM]

I guess but it does happen... my M3 has launch control... BMW wouldn't stand up the warranty if their computer told them it had been used in launch control loads.

I have no idea if Bosch can tell if a dongle has been used... but I'm not sure I would risk testing that.
Like I said at the start.. I have no interest in hacking the bike..just interested that warranty never seems to be mentioned in all the "I wanna go faster" threads yet its one of the main things the dealer made sure I was aware of.

 

[ccrdave]

I also think that there is a missunderstanding about what these supposed hacks do and most of the time they do not make the bike go faster they just allow the assist to last a bit longer. If you want to go faster you will need to change the gearing as well.
But lets put it into perspective, even an old fart like me can easily hit 15mph on single track and the assist cuts out just when i dont want it to . Having the USA limit of 20mph would make things much easier for me, i still wouldnt go any faster i would be more consistent.
One of the posters said he can hit 89kph of course thats without motor assistance but speed is speed so whats the difference??
But the law is the law and bike manufacturers have to stick to it and they have to encourage thier customers to do the same

 

[PeteIOM]

I did contemplate what you have said there and yes, hitting the cut off speed isn't that hard but I'm pretty sure where ever the cut off came in people would say "ohh if only it came in a little later!"

I know over a distance I am faster on my non assisted bike.. the climbs are slower but the rest is quicker.. but thats not why I bought an eBike

 

[ccrdave]

Yeah i guess you cant please all the people all the time right i know i love my ebike and wont change for the world wherever it cuts out!

 

[Slowroller]

Yeah, it doesn't change the power at all, it just raises the speed at which the power cuts out, and in doing so tricks the speedo in displaying the wrong speed, like 50% off. As far as I know, unless the company has a way to compare the bikes gps speed, with the speed your controller says it's going, they have no way to know. They all say to not do it, but it's been an issue for years and they've done zip to stop it, so I don't think they really care too much.

Having the power on more often would mean more wear on your drivetrain, but not because of the speed, just like you've been riding it more. All that stuff are consumables anyway, you got to pay to play. The 20 mph US limit seems about right to me, I don't know how you guys in the UK can stand it that much lower.

 

[PeteIOM]

Yeah, it doesn't change the power at all, it just raises the speed at which the power cuts out, and in doing so tricks the speedo in displaying the wrong speed, like 50% off. As far as I know, unless the company has a way to compare the bikes gps speed, with the speed your controller says it's going, they have no way to know. They all say to not do it, but it's been an issue for years and they've done zip to stop it, so I don't think they really care too much.

Having the power on more often would mean more wear on your drivetrain, but not because of the speed, just like you've been riding it more. All that stuff are consumables anyway, you got to pay to play. The 20 mph US limit seems about right to me, I don't know how you guys in the UK can stand it that much lower.

I do think you adapt to what is offered and then make your choices.
I guarantee that even though you think 20mph is about right people will still complain its too slow.
You really can't please even close to everyone

I know that I can mod my bike with a dongle that will almost be unrecognisable as anything but standard and would have to be massively unlucky to get pulled over for it... but I'm just not interested... it's not meant to be my fast bike, just my useful/fun bike

 

[Kernow]

I have found the 15.5 cut out a pain on my first trail centre ride it actually made the up and down level trail where you have small lift offs hardervyo rudecsmooth and control and I did think that 20 would be fine as Iam only exceeding that on the downhills .
How manufacturers can put up warnings like that Bosch one is a little hard to understand when the restriction limit varies depending on where the bike is sold , but they have to be seen to be supporting the laws . Extra wear has to be an issue if your riding it constantly hard above the limiter so I guess dealers want to avoid that during warranty .

 

[Doomanic]

A quick note of cation, courtesy of the BPW FAQ;

Can I ride an E-bike at BikePark Wales?

Yes E-bikes are welcome on the trails so long as they meet Eu directive EN151194. E-bike used at BPW must:

- Be fitted with a motor with a power of no more than 250w
- Provide a maximum assisted speed (i.e. the speed at which motor assistance is automatically cut off) of no more than 25 kmph (roughly 15.5 mph).
- Not be fitted with a full speed throttle that can work ‘independently’ (that is without the pedals ‘moving forward’). Start Up Assist throttles (those that assist up to 6 km/h) are allowed.

Whilst the chances of getting caught are, presumably, low it could have ramifications on the whole eBiking community.

 

[Tamas]

I wonder people who de-restrict their e-bikes why not just buy mopeds/motorbikes instead of potentially f*cking over the whole e-bike community?

 

[Kernow]

I wonder people who de-restrict their e-bikes why not just buy mopeds/motorbikes instead of potentially f*cking over the whole e-bike community?

There is a thread where it was discussed and voted , if threads are constantly interrupted by the negative minority then there was no point in that , and every thread here will become a place to argue the original thread instead of discuss a new topic .

 

[Doomanic]

It’s a devisive topic and whichever way the vote went there would have been those who continue to argue their point.

 

[ccrdave]

I would prefer to see discussion, its clear that some have no idea what hacking actually does and as they say you never learn anything with your mouth open

 

[Tamas]

I would prefer to see discussion, its clear that some have no idea what hacking actually does and as they say you never learn anything with your mouth open

I really thought that hacking changes the assist cut off speed but probably I'm too dumb. Please enlighten me I want to learn something new I will even close my mouth...

 

[ccrdave]

Ok it changes the point where the motor stops assisting but it wont make the bike go any faster than the gearing will allow making coments like “ you might as well have a motor scooter “ could not be further from what you get. If an ebike gears out at lets say 25 mph you can do that without motor support if you are fit and you can do it with motor support if you are not fit but it won't peddle any faster and the limit is the gearing not the motor.
Sure you can hack the motor and hack the gearing but anybody doing that might as well buy a motor scooter. More useful is to raise the assist level to a point where you get consistent support on the trails you ride and for some the 15mph threshold is on the point of making singletrack flowing or jittery. Now i know everyone is different but that how it is for me.

 

[Tamas]

Ok it changes the point where the motor stops assisting but it wont make the bike go any faster than the gearing will allow making coments like “ you might as well have a motor scooter “ could not be further from what you get. If an ebike gears out at lets say 25 mph you can do that without motor support if you are fit and you can do it with motor support if you are not fit but it won't peddle any faster and the limit is the gearing not the motor.
Sure you can hack the motor and hack the gearing but anybody doing that might as well buy a motor scooter. More useful is to raise the assist level to a point where you get consistent support on the trails you ride and for some the 15mph threshold is on the point of making singletrack flowing or jittery. Now i know everyone is different but that how it is for me.

With the current 34/10 gearing of my bike the speed is ~45kph/28mph @90rpm cadence. Where I live that's the speed limit for scooters and that's why I referenced them so it's exactly what I get. The limited assist speed is the "price I pay" for my bike to have a motor and still be considered as a bicycle.

 

[ccrdave]

My gearing is 32/10 and like you we have the assist law set at 25kph 15mph and of course as for all of us its against the law to alter that limit if you plan to use your bike in public places but it doesnt mean we have to agree with the law, just abide to it.and you never know a group of intelligent thoughtfull ebike riders might one day have enough representation to get the law changed,
Yeah i know im dreaming right?

 

[Kernow]

I would prefer to see discussion, its clear that some have no idea what hacking actually does and as they say you never learn anything with your mouth open

I agree ,
I’ve not heard of an ebike being hacked , I’ve no idea what it does or if it’s even possible , the only mod I can see for any of them are a few devices from different makers that simply remove the speed cutout by fooling the speed sensor into reading half speed . It will then do 30 mph if you can pedal that hard or have the gearing to spin it . I think people think it doubles the power of the little 250 w motor and 30 is reached as easily as 15 . It’s just not like that .
Last 3 posts weren’t showing when I posted this

 

[ccrdave]

I guess when i say hacked i am talking about
the levo its one of the few bikes that can be modified with an app. want the cutoff upped from 15mph to 18mph no problem i have an app for that

 

[ccrdave]

I should add of course thats not what i use the app for, i use it to tune the performance of the motor and this is where it really comes into its own, it doesnt increase the manufacturers set power limits it just tunes it to suit how you like it to be delivered and the settings are very varied for almost any terrain and any rider

 

[Tamas]

I agree ,
I’ve not heard of an ebike being hacked , I’ve no idea what it does or if it’s even possible , the only mod I can see for any of them are a few devices from different makers that simply remove the speed cutout by fooling the speed sensor into reading half speed . It will then do 30 mph if you can pedal that hard or have the gearing to spin it . I think people think it doubles the power of the little 250 w motor and 30 is reached as easily as 15 . It’s just not like that .
Last 3 posts weren’t showing when I posted this

You’ve never heard it doesn’t mean that it cannot be hacked. Shimano E8000 also has a software hack called “eMax” where you can set any desired assist cut-off speed and you can restore the original whenever you want. I think we can agree that everybody knows what the “hack” means and nobody thinks it will double the engine power...

 

[Kernow]

You’ve never heard it doesn’t mean that it cannot be hacked. Shimano E8000 also has a software hack called “eMax” where you can set any desired assist cut-off speed and you can restore the original whenever you want. I think we can agree that everybody knows what the “hack” means and nobody thinks it will double the engine power...

It seems shimano have managed to prevent that software working with thier latest firmware , but again all it did was re set the cut off speed all be it with silly claims of 60 Kmh .
I don’t think everyone does know what a hack means , or that it doesn’t increase power . I thought that maybe hacking could actually increase power , in the same way re mapping a car engine does So maybe Iam the only person who didn’t know the real meaning of a hack
An example , I hired a Levo demmo from our local shop . When I returned it I was asked my opinion , I commented how much more power the Bosch powered bikes I had been riding with had . The bike shop guy said the Bosch motors were probably tuned or chipped . I explained I didn’t mean top speed , simply more go up the hills etc below cut off speed . He still said theyhmust be tuned as normal Bosch motors are no more powerful than the Levo . At that point I really had no idea and thought maybe that was true , can massive power gains he had from these motors . But no 250 w will always be 250 watt and Your going to be some fit rider if you going sustain much more than 20 mph for very long and only then downhill or briefly on the flat .

 

[Tamas]

It seems shimano have managed to prevent that software working with thier latest firmware , but again all it did was re set the cut off speed all be it with silly claims of 60 Kmh .
I don’t think everyone does know what a hack means , or that it doesn’t increase power . I thought that maybe hacking could actually increase power , in the same way re mapping a car engine does So maybe Iam the only person who didn’t know the real meaning of a hack
An example , I hired a Levo demmo from our local shop . When I returned it I was asked my opinion , I commented how much more power the Bosch powered bikes I had been riding with had . The bike shop guy said the Bosch motors were probably tuned or chipped . I explained I didn’t mean top speed , simply more go up the hills etc below cut off speed . He still said theyhmust be tuned as normal Bosch motors are no more powerful than the Levo . At that point I really had no idea and thought maybe that was true , can massive power gains he had from these motors . But no 250 w will always be 250 watt and Your going to be some fit rider if you going sustain much more than 20 mph for very long and only then downhill or briefly on the flat .

I know eMax doesn’t work with thelatest firmware but I think it’s just a matter of time - like iPhone jailbreakng.
On the Levo the assist power can be changed in the app so even Turbo mode can be set to 60% and it feels weak. That’s how last year I couldn’t keep up with my friend on a long climb when we tested two Levos. When we rode Stumpjumpers he was dying I always had to wait for him but my Levo had much less power. The end the guys confirmed that they played with the app and the max assist was set lower than 100%. It is still possible that the Bosch feels/is stronger just like my wife’s Yamaha PW feels stronger than my Shimano. The continuous power of the motors is 250W but the peak power is different and also, the measuring methods of the manufacturers. The representatives will say that their product is the best and when you complain about power they will say no, theirs has “more natural feel” and that’s why you think it’s less power. Same as the “excellent modulation” of SRAM brakes is a marketing term for lack of braking power.
The characteristics can also be far from each other. While the Yamaha PX has huge power at low (50-70) cadence but runs out @80rpm the E8000 is kind of the opposite. It starts higher and it fells like it will never run out. It took me a while to get used to it after riding the Yamaha a lot.
Probably the performance can be increased by hacking - like chip tuning with cars - but I don’t think it has a good effect on the engine, battery longevity and the drivetrain wear etc.

 

[Kernow]

I know eMax doesn’t work with thelatest firmware but I think it’s just a matter of time - like iPhone jailbreakng.
On the Levo the assist power can be changed in the app so even Turbo mode can be set to 60% and it feels weak. That’s how last year I couldn’t keep up with my friend on a long climb when we tested two Levos. When we rode Stumpjumpers he was dying I always had to wait for him but my Levo had much less power. The end the guys confirmed that they played with the app and the max assist was set lower than 100%. It is still possible that the Bosch feels/is stronger just like my wife’s Yamaha PW feels stronger than my Shimano. The continuous power of the motors is 250W but the peak power is different and also, the measuring methods of the manufacturers. The representatives will say that their product is the best and when you complain about power they will say no, theirs has “more natural feel” and that’s why you think it’s less power. Same as the “excellent modulation” of SRAM brakes is a marketing term for lack of braking power.
The characteristics can also be far from each other. While the Yamaha PX has huge power at low (50-70) cadence but runs out @80rpm the E8000 is kind of the opposite. It starts higher and it fells like it will never run out. It took me a while to get used to it after riding the Yamaha a lot.
Probably the performance can be increased by hacking - like chip tuning with cars - but I don’t think it has a good effect on the engine, battery longevity and the drivetrain wear etc.

That’s interesting , I wonder if my demmo Levo had been turned down , it felt quite weak . Not a great idea for a demmo bike because it’s a really nice bike to ride
. Interesting what you say about the shimano , Its sweet spot is at the right cadence and happy to keep singing as fast as I can spin , it feels natural like the brose did but not as quiet , not impressed with battery life so far , Iam just hoping that’s a cold weather thing .