Frustrations with Shimano and Santa Cruz in the UK

[Growmac]

I have a Santa Cruz Heckler with a Shimano E8000 motor. I really do love the bike, it has taken me places and done things I'd never have seen/done otherwise. It's decent spec and is now 2.5 years old and out of warranty.

Knowing what I know now, I couldn't in good conscience advise anyone to buy a bike with a Shimano motor .

Santa Cruz advertise that they want to get you out riding. They've been great at things in the past and I have other Santa Cruz bikes but when it comes to anything Shimano, they can't do anything to help and you have to contact a Shimano service centre.

Shimano do not service the motors and do not offer parts. Motors are not offered for sale either, you simply can't buy one. The reason is the motors have parameters specific to the bike they're fitted to and UK/EU laws mean these have to be restricted to maintain the max speed/power limits.

As such, the service centres can't change any of the motor configuration, that can only be done by Shimano's UK representative, Madison. Madison can only offer warranty replacements and they can only replace like for like.

I can in theory fit an EP-8 to the bike, the physical mounting is the same and Santa Cruz did ship Hecklers with my frame with an EP-8. I would need a new speed sensor, cable, display and mode switch but those are solvable things. The trouble is I can't obtain a motor anywhere legitimately in the UK, nor change the settings on it if I could.

As far as I can tell, supply of EP-8 motors for warranty replacements is problematic with long delays. Santa Cruz only has motors to fit to new bikes so basically fobs off existing customers with "talk to Shimano, only they can solve this". Talking to Madison, they say "only Santa Cruz could provide an upgrade kit". Given the supply issues, nobody is interested in resolving things. This is really poor for existing customers, particularly when they've used a brand based on their support in the past.

Both sides don't understand the other. Santa Cruz has told me I can get a Shimano service centre to change the motor bearings for example. This simply isn't the case.

I can buy a bearing kit online and then service my existing motor myself, if I feel like taking the chance. There are also places offering that service, the trouble is should anything go wrong, there are no spare parts.

The motor is out of warranty. If a service centre runs tests and determines my motor is failing, Madison might at a push agree to replace the motor out of warranty, at the cost price of a new motor. If I'm going to spend £900+ on a new motor, I'd prefer the EP-8 but that isn't an option. I wouldn't get to keep the old motor, it has to be done by the service centre and I can't repair it, only replace.

It looks like I might be able to obtain an EP-8 motor from elsewhere in the world, obviously that would have no warranty and I could have fun with import duty/taxes. It is possible to use unauthorized software to change the software config. Whilst that wouldn't have any warranty support, would I actually miss out on much given where things are at?

Anyway, I wanted to share the experience and put a plea out there to Shimano and Santa Cruz to sort this experience out, please! As things stand, I really can't recommend them.

Having read this whole thread, I'm struck by the similarities to my problems trying to get Madison and/or Shimano deal with faulty batteries. In the end I went to small claims court and it went to arbitration when the supplying dealer (a big corporation in my case) fought it. I am not allowed to tell you the outcome of that, but I was left satisfied.

In the UK consumer legislation specifies that goods must be fit for purpose and of expected quality. I would think that you have a very strong argument that being unable to repair a 2.5 year old bike that cost you many thousands is "unfit" and therefore falls under consumer protections. Sadly the responsibility for this falls to your supplying dealer, not Madison or Shimano, but I would think you have an excellent case to put to them that they need to put this right or you will take them to small claims court. That's what I ended up having to do to get it sorted.

EDITED as I realised it implied I had taken either Madison or Shimano to court. I had not, I had to challenge the dealer despite it not really being their fault.

 

[Bummers]

Having read this whole thread, I'm struck by the similarities to my problems trying to get Madison and/or Shimano deal with faulty batteries. In the end I went to small claims court and it went to arbitration when the supplying dealer (a big corporation in my case) fought it. I am not allowed to tell you the outcome of that, but I was left satisfied.

In the UK consumer legislation specifies that goods must be fit for purpose and of expected quality. I would think that you have a very strong argument that being unable to repair a 2.5 year old bike that cost you many thousands is "unfit" and therefore falls under consumer protections. Sadly the responsibility for this falls to your supplying dealer, not Madison or Shimano, but I would think you have an excellent case to put to them that they need to put this right or you will take them to small claims court. That's what I ended up having to do to get it sorted.

EDITED as I realised it implied I had taken either Madison or Shimano to court. I had not, I had to challenge the dealer despite it not really being their fault.

Nice one on fighting it all the way! Was it settled out of court hence NDA?

 

[rpurdie]

Having had the chance to think about this. I believe the "gen1" Heckler frame isn't approved for the EP8 motor. Manufacturers have to do type approval for their ebikes and the components they choose to use. I've never heard of a manufacturer going back to update the type approval of previous model years as new components are introduced. But I could be wrong.

The interesting thing is that the V8 heckler shipped originally with the E8000 and then with the EP-8 when it was released. As far as I know, there are no changes to the frame between those two models. I believe the frame is therefore approved for both motors. I did ask when it was released and was told at the time it was a cabling issue. I now know the cabling can be resolved easily (I didn't really believe it at the time to be honest).

Santa Cruz confirm in writing there is no warranty issue from their side using either motor in the frame. They just can't supply a motor and nobody else will either in the case of the EP-8.

It makes sense to swap like for like. It would be interesting to hear if Shimano have replaced an E8000 with an EP8 for anyone else though.

Yes, I'd be interested to hear about that too.

It does of course suck having to pay the same for a replacement E8000 as for an EP8. But I can see why Shimano have rules for this. There should be no rules stopping them from getting you an E8000.

There appear to be rules which mean I can only exchange a motor under warranty in the UK. I think this means if I buy a full price one, I have to return my failed one. If I'm buying one full price, I'd rather keep it and have a go at replacing the bearings as a spare. It is odd as they're effectively landfill for Madison but they have their rules...

 

[cappuccino34]

The interesting thing is that the V8 heckler shipped originally with the E8000 and then with the EP-8 when it was released. As far as I know, there are no changes to the frame between those two models. I believe the frame is therefore approved for both motors. I did ask when it was released and was told at the time it was a cabling issue. I now know the cabling can be resolved easily (I didn't really believe it at the time to be honest).

Santa Cruz confirm in writing there is no warranty issue from their side using either motor in the frame. They just can't supply a motor and nobody else will either in the case of the EP-8.


Yes, I'd be interested to hear about that too.


There appear to be rules which mean I can only exchange a motor under warranty in the UK. I think this means if I buy a full price one, I have to return my failed one. If I'm buying one full price, I'd rather keep it and have a go at replacing the bearings as a spare. It is odd as they're effectively landfill for Madison but they have their rules...

You own it, not them.

If it was priced as an exchange then they should apply a surcharge or core charge for your old unit.

 

[Growmac]

Nice one on fighting it all the way! Was it settled out of court hence NDA?

Exactly. If it is settled in arbitration then you're not allowed to disclose the specifics of the settlement. A bit of a shame, but the alternative was waiting 12-14 months to possibly be outgunned in court and left with significant costs.

 

[B1rdie]

The interesting thing is that the V8 heckler shipped originally with the E8000 and then with the EP-8 when it was released. As far as I know, there are no changes to the frame between those two models. I believe the frame is therefore approved for both motors. I did ask when it was released and was told at the time it was a cabling issue. I now know the cabling can be resolved easily (I didn't really believe it at the time to be honest).

Santa Cruz confirm in writing there is no warranty issue from their side using either motor in the frame. They just can't supply a motor and nobody else will either in the case of the EP-8.


Yes, I'd be interested to hear about that too.


There appear to be rules which mean I can only exchange a motor under warranty in the UK. I think this means if I buy a full price one, I have to return my failed one. If I'm buying one full price, I'd rather keep it and have a go at replacing the bearings as a spare. It is odd as they're effectively landfill for Madison but they have their rules...

The small letters on the ebay offer of e8000 tell that you must send your old motor to them, after receiving the new one… (I guess its shimano policy) in my case, this will not happen, because the costs involved in exporting an used motor to europe are absurd.

 

[rpurdie]

The small letters on the ebay offer of e8000 tell that you must send your old motor to them, after receiving the new one… (I guess its shimano policy) in my case, this will not happen, because the costs involved in exporting an used motor to europe are absurd.

I hadn't seen that and can't quite spot it even now but I'm not surprised as everything I run into eventually says exchange only. Does the EP-8 from Germany have that caveat too? As you say, exporting one would be extremely costly.

 

[G-Sport]

Having read this whole thread, I'm struck by the similarities to my problems trying to get Madison and/or Shimano deal with faulty batteries. In the end I went to small claims court and it went to arbitration when the supplying dealer (a big corporation in my case) fought it. I am not allowed to tell you the outcome of that, but I was left satisfied.

In the UK consumer legislation specifies that goods must be fit for purpose and of expected quality. I would think that you have a very strong argument that being unable to repair a 2.5 year old bike that cost you many thousands is "unfit" and therefore falls under consumer protections. Sadly the responsibility for this falls to your supplying dealer, not Madison or Shimano, but I would think you have an excellent case to put to them that they need to put this right or you will take them to small claims court. That's what I ended up having to do to get it sorted.

EDITED as I realised it implied I had taken either Madison or Shimano to court. I had not, I had to challenge the dealer despite it not really being their fault.

This.

Manufacturers can put any warranty they like on things but it doesn't remove your basic consumer protections. It is perfectly reasonable to expect a very very expensive electric bike to still work after more than 2.5 years. A complete motor failure after this time is not "normal wear and tear" so I would suggest you put your foot down and insist on a free repair/replacement of the original motor. This wont be the first time they have had to deal with this issue and as soon as you start demonstrating that you know your rights they will probably cave and get it sorted.

 

[cappuccino34]

The small letters on the ebay offer of e8000 tell that you must send your old motor to them, after receiving the new one… (I guess its shimano policy) in my case, this will not happen, because the costs involved in exporting an used motor to europe are absurd.

A friend of mine bought an E8000 (for his Bianchi) from a German company on fleabay and he didn't have to send his old one back, and nor should you have to.

 

[rpurdie]

I may as well update the thread. The answer is definitively no, I can't buy an E8000 and no, I can't buy an EP-8. My only option is to send my current motor off to Madison for an inspection and they will then let me know what they think of things and what my options are. Obviously this is geared to force exchange only.

This will take a few weeks for them to process and nobody can tell me what options I might be offered. I know the motor is out of warranty. I've never changed any settings on it so that side of things is fine. The motor has taken some scrapes from riding and catching rocks so is clearly not pristine but I'm not going to apologize for having some adventures with it.

The motor hasn't totally failed yet, it just has bearings that aren't well and feels draggy. I have to wonder if I should wait for it to fail conclusively.

 

[yorkshire89]

Why don't you just take it to a Shimano service centre, let them run diagnostics and send the report off to Shimano/Madison. You'll probably get an answer fairly quickly and you might just get a free motor replacement.

 

[rpurdie]

Why don't you just take it to a Shimano service centre, let them run diagnostics and send the report off to Shimano/Madison. You'll probably get an answer fairly quickly and you might just get a free motor replacement.

It was such a centre I talked to. They've said the motor has to be sent away and explained the usual timescale.

 

[B1rdie]

I hadn't seen that and can't quite spot it even now but I'm not surprised as everything I run into eventually says exchange only. Does the EP-8 from Germany have that caveat too? As you say, exporting one would be extremely costly.

Commencal never asked me to send the old motor back, also, they never asked for proof of purchase for my bike, wich is from canyon, so shimano probably do not enforce this rule that I have copied from the ebay ad:

"
IMPORTANT NOTE:

Shimano motors are only available as exchange parts. We have the motor directly in stock and can ship it directly. After purchase, please send us your old, defective motor immediately, as it has to be sent to Shimano. Of course, we take care of this service for you free of charge. You can therefore install the new engine directly and unbureaucratically and start cycling.
"

 

[yorkshire89]

It was such a centre I talked to. They've said the motor has to be sent away and explained the usual timescale.

Did they run diagnostics?
We use a service centre and they've always run a report, sent report off to Bosch/Madison and a new motor was posted out to the shop. These were all failures, but the report would usually find many more errors than what might come up on your display. Might be worth a try.

 

[Growmac]

If it makes you feel any better, my intermittently faulty E8000 went back to Madison and they replaced it within about 10 days, shipping both ways included in that time. I'd hope you'd experience similar, albeit less likely to be free.

 

[rpurdie]

I gave in and took the bike to a service center as I've been instructed. They've run tests and found there are a few speed sensor glitches in the logs, averaging about one issue every six months, the last one being 5 months ago. Shimano are claiming this may be the cause of the performance issues.

Those glitches happen when you take the bike up really steep climbs and the bike gets confused with wheel slippage/power output. There was one climb in particular where it would do it at the same place every time. It did it from new, I raised with the original dealer and they were told by Shimano to ignore it and it was fine, just one of those things that can happen. I've provided the paperwork showing it happened and that I was told it ignore it. They now say it needs to be fixed.

I've been without the bike for weeks and we're still "waiting on a new speed sensor" which no doubt I'll be buying. We still haven't got to the point where anything is returned/inspected with the batteries/motor.

None of this is going to change the fact the bearings in the motor are physically knackered.

 

[steve_sordy]

Shimano continue to dig a hole for themselves. Their customer service is being demonstrated on a regular basis as sadly lacking.

 

[Ark]

Shimano do not service the motors and do not offer parts. Motors are not offered for sale either, you simply can't buy one. The reason is the motors have parameters specific to the bike they're fitted to and UK/EU laws mean these have to be restricted to maintain the max speed/power limits.

So do bosch but the bike brand can do it remotely when the LBS contacts them.
Everything is just an excuse to have a closed system and Ebikes are basically "sold as a service" that's why when you buy a new motor from say Bosch you aren't allowed to keep the old one you bought outright....
your basically paying for a warranty not an actual component.
big scam imo to stop people being able to service the motors themselves with parts from their old ones, also means every failure - a new sale outside of warranty

Seems no one if forcing Right to repair laws of the EU and USA has the same in a bunch of states?

 

[rpurdie]

I thought people might be interested in an update. Eventually the speed sensor came into stock (took around a month) and was replaced. This didn't have any effect on the bike's range and oddly enough, no effect on the motor bearing play either. it did mean we checked the "all error codes fixed" box on the forms though.
After much discussion, the clearly unwell battery of the two which was still under warranty was replaced and I was asked to range test the bike again. I took it out and found it incredibly hard to pedal after a few miles, things were getting worse. 20% battery used in 3 miles, albeit it with a decent bit of climbing, no boost, just trail with other ebikes. Total range, 12.3 miles to dead and I had to cut the route short as I was going to get stranded otherwise. My older battery was slightly worse. By this point, under full power on a steep barely ridable climb, the motor was making gentle grinding noises.
I presented it back to the mechanic/service center. It took another few weeks of asking "exactly what was I meant to do with a motor I can't replace or service" but Madison agreed to take the motor back for an inspection. The motor wasn't labelled according to some protocol and seemingly got lost in the system.
Meanwhile, after I told Santa Cruz the story and explained I'd done what they asked, they did manage to find a way to get me a motor to me as a temp fix to get the bike going again. I have enduros coming up I want to actually ride the bike in (crazy I know). So credit to Santa Cruz, they did come through in the end to help.
Meanwhile, I think Madison realized they'd messed up, found my motor yesterday, quickly pronounced it 'unwell' and sent a replacement. I got the bike back today and it does feel a lot different even in a car park.
This took 5+ hours of the mechanic's time and a new speed sensor which I'd originally been told was "fine" when it was under warranty. At the end of the day, I have one of the batteries replaced, a new motor and a working bike so I need to be content with that. Taking 2+ months to resolve it and paying for 5 hours of arguing their service center mechanic is wrong, not so good.
I'm told there are discussions going on between Santa Cruz and Shimano about how this kind of situation can improved. I continue to dream of an EP-8 motor or better. For me, the battle became a question of a working bike at all.

 

[JP-NZ]

What a debacle...

 

[Growmac]

Utter madness. I didn't have quite the struggles that you did, but at the point that I finally got a new E8000 motor I took the opportunity to sell the bike. I took my supplying dealer (happily a large chain so I didn't feel too guilty) to small claims court over the crappy batteries and got a satisfactory outcome.