cappuccino34
Active member
That's what my mate bought for his Bianchi.
He plugged it in and rode on, no messing with anything.
He plugged it in and rode on, no messing with anything.
Frustrations with Shimano and Santa Cruz in the UK
- Thread starter rpurdie
- Start date
cappuccino34
Active member
Isn't there a wheel size adjustment in the app, it is in most other apps?
My contact is a local Norwegian one, I don't think he's in a position to do anything.
@rpurdie
Shimano claim the motor angle must be set. But I'm not sure it always makes that much difference. I've ridden surprisingly weak and surprisingly powerful EP8s. My guess is the motor angle could be wrong on some of the bikes. But if the motor angle is wrong straight from factory, it must be several bikes with wrong angle settings out there. And they do work. I believe this settings is gone on the EP801.
The shop needs OEM access in the E-Tube software to alter this setting. Madison would have this level of access, but there could be a very few select shops with the same access. That's the case in Norway. I don't know how you could find out, but it's worth trying I guess.
If you end up buying a motor from ebay or whatever, I guess STunlocker is a good option. I've never used it myself, but if it can alter the correct settings, it seems a good option. The motor probably won't come with much of a warranty anyway.
You could ask Santa Cruz what the correct motor angle figure is, and compare it to your old motor. You might have a case again if the value is wrong on your original motor
If you decide to fit an EP8, you'll need adapters for the wires, the connectors are not the same. I would consider the E7000 motor too, if it's cheap enough. Sure, you get lower maximum power. But I think it behaves better on the trails, it can be ridden at max power anywhere, the E8000 can't really. So it's not much of a sacrifice for me, I usually drop the power in Boost mode on the E8000 anyway, to make it more well behaved.
- Thread starter
- #34
If I understand that correctly, if you did get a motor with a newer firmware version, you probably can't change the settings any more. I suspect the software and cost they refer to is STunlocker.
- Thread starter
- #35
The surprisingly weak and surprisingly powerful EP8s worries me a bit. Do you know if that was depending on different bike models or varying with the same frame and different motors? Had they changed wheel sizes? If I had to guess I'd imagine the EP801 has an extra sensor to work out where vertical is so the sensor isn't needed and it will work better with changing geometry.My contact is a local Norwegian one, I don't think he's in a position to do anything.
@rpurdie
Shimano claim the motor angle must be set. But I'm not sure it always makes that much difference. I've ridden surprisingly weak and surprisingly powerful EP8s. My guess is the motor angle could be wrong on some of the bikes. But if the motor angle is wrong straight from factory, it must be several bikes with wrong angle settings out there. And they do work. I believe this settings is gone on the EP801.
The shop needs OEM access in the E-Tube software to alter this setting. Madison would have this level of access, but there could be a very few select shops with the same access. That's the case in Norway. I don't know how you could find out, but it's worth trying I guess.
If you end up buying a motor from ebay or whatever, I guess STunlocker is a good option. I've never used it myself, but if it can alter the correct settings, it seems a good option. The motor probably won't come with much of a warranty anyway.
You could ask Santa Cruz what the correct motor angle figure is, and compare it to your old motor. You might have a case again if the value is wrong on your original motor
If you decide to fit an EP8, you'll need adapters for the wires, the connectors are not the same. I would consider the E7000 motor too, if it's cheap enough. Sure, you get lower maximum power. But I think it behaves better on the trails, it can be ridden at max power anywhere, the E8000 can't really. So it's not much of a sacrifice for me, I usually drop the power in Boost mode on the E8000 anyway, to make it more well behaved.
I know what you mean about the power output on the E8000, I do choose trail for some steep climbs depending on the surface. That said, I once tried to keep up with a passing rider on a climb, barely able to keep up with them on my E8000 and they were near idling on their EP-8!
The motor angle is the angle in the frame so should be the same for the two motors on my bike and I'm sure I did have that number somewhere. It would be surprising if it wasn''t correct but after this length of time I doubt they'd be interested.
Does anyone know if the CAN bus messages between the parts of the bike have been decoded? Have any such efforts been shut down by Shimano? I'd love to know if the data formats STUnlocker is using are available anywhere too. I'm a software engineer by trade working with open software so closed systems like this frustrate me a lot, particularly when Shimano could do so much differently if they weren't, there is so much potential there (whilst still controlling the things they need to).
cappuccino34
Active member
I did some CAN decoding on my Giant, but I've never had a Shimano bike to analyse the stream.
It might not actually be CAN, there's lots of other Comms protocols that would work. CAN is probably the best for the application because it's very robust and would suit well.
It's pretty dumb that the installation angle has to be 'set', because it could very easily be derived from the average operating angle and saved to non-volatile memory on Shutdown.
Given the major players involved in the bike industry, I can't believe how far behind other industries they are with this stuff, especially automotive.
Husky430
E*POWAH Elite
I used STunlocker on a mates e8000 just to check his battery health and NOTHING ELSE. His motor played up about 9 months later and he was still in warranty. He sent it off to get it looked at and SHITMANO gave him the old "you have tweaked your motor and so VOID the warranty' line and basically told him to F* off. Great customer service. Another reason to head to the Bosch side of life I reckon.
cappuccino34
Active member
Hence why I wouldn't buy a Shimano, or a Brose.
- Thread starter
- #39
I thought I might have a way forward. I talked to my local Shimano service centre, who in turn asked Madison and were told with manufacture permission, they could get an EP-8 motor released. I obtained the permission which took a while. The service centre were then told by Madison that it was in fact not possible and no, they can't buy a motor. So we're back to square one and Santa Cruz's advice of "take it to a service centre" doesn't help.
Let me see if I understand the situation correctly!? The E8000 motor failed after 2.5 yrs, so it's outside the warranty. You would expect the motor to last longer, but that's beside the point. You want to buy a new motor, to keep the bike running.
Santa Cruz UK can't sell you a new motor because it has to go through Shimano, which is Madison in the UK. And Madison says they can't get a hold of an E8000. And they don't want to sell you an EP8 or E7000 because they are different motors?
According to my Shimano contact, the E8000 is still available to order from Shimano. It's strange that Madison don't want to solve this.
Santa Cruz UK can't sell you a new motor because it has to go through Shimano, which is Madison in the UK. And Madison says they can't get a hold of an E8000. And they don't want to sell you an EP8 or E7000 because they are different motors?
According to my Shimano contact, the E8000 is still available to order from Shimano. It's strange that Madison don't want to solve this.
- Thread starter
- #41
My last post was about the EP-8 situation which is frustrating as it seemed they were going to be able to supply it, I did what they asked then they changed their mind.
I definitely can't get the EP8, which if I'm going to pay full price for a new motor, I'd very much prefer.
It is questionable whether they will sell me an E8000 or not as Madison can only exchange under warranty and it no longer is. I'd question whether they can require an exchange for something I'd be buying. I've asked some questions about where I stand on the E8000 with the service centre and I don't have an answer on that back yet.
K78
New Member
E8000 are available on eBay.
I don't know if I expect them to sell you an EP8. But I definitely think they should offer you an E8000. As far as I know, the motor is available. And they have to stand by their product and make sure people can buy a Shimano-bike and not runnning the risk of being left with a worthless paper weight after 2 years. If they can't supply an E8000, then I would expect them to help me with a different motor, like the EP8.
I don't believe it's Shimano policy to only replace under warranty. Sure, you'll have to pay for it, but a Shimano service center will help. At least they will where I live.
It would be good customer support to help you get the EP8, it is unacceptable if they can't help you with an E8000.
K78
New Member
I think their idea of properly is to drop another £8k on a new bike.
Customer service is a joke with many bikes and motors. Should be illegal to not sell customers replacement parts.
It shouldn’t be hard choosing a motor when you’re spending thousands on a bike. Shimano seem to be a nightmare, Bosch throw codes when derestricted and Brose seem very unreliable.
Cant think of another product anywhere near this price point that is as unreliable as Emtb’s.
Madison/canyon denied warranty on my ep8000 because I had changed it to USA speed limit and di2 shifting, using stunlocker, after I brought the bike to Brazil.
But that was my fault, because I did not change the settings back to original before sending the motor.
The last time I used stunlock I noticed it now shows a warning that If you want to send the motor to service you MUST reset it to original settings, so, I believe shimano will warrant a motor in this situation...
Canyon actually offered me a new e8000 then, but commencal had it for a better price.
Anyway, I do like the e8000, will buy another one if necessary, because there are many bike parts that will cost the same as a new e8000, specially from brands like SC: you can have cassetes, shifters, even handlebars that will cost you more than a new e8000, so what!?!
I have a bosch powered cube setereo and love it, but I don't think one motor is an absolute "better". At least you can find plenty of e8000 for sale on the internet, and the basic shimano electronics is much easier to DIY, it allows bluetooth access to apps like stunlock, while the purion, for example does not even allow you to display cadence, wich is unbelievable to me.
But that was my fault, because I did not change the settings back to original before sending the motor.
The last time I used stunlock I noticed it now shows a warning that If you want to send the motor to service you MUST reset it to original settings, so, I believe shimano will warrant a motor in this situation...
Canyon actually offered me a new e8000 then, but commencal had it for a better price.
Anyway, I do like the e8000, will buy another one if necessary, because there are many bike parts that will cost the same as a new e8000, specially from brands like SC: you can have cassetes, shifters, even handlebars that will cost you more than a new e8000, so what!?!
I have a bosch powered cube setereo and love it, but I don't think one motor is an absolute "better". At least you can find plenty of e8000 for sale on the internet, and the basic shimano electronics is much easier to DIY, it allows bluetooth access to apps like stunlock, while the purion, for example does not even allow you to display cadence, wich is unbelievable to me.
- Thread starter
- #47
Let me put it another way. If they expect you to pay full price for a replacement motor and the EP-8 is available at roughly the same cost and will fit with some components changed (which you're willing to pay for), should they disallow that? If it is a supply problem and they simply don't have any EP-8s, they could say that but they haven't.
The replacement under warranty is Madison's policy and seems to be some kind of limitation they're under. They explicitly told me that they can only exchange and *any* new motor would need to be bought from Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz have told me they don't sell motors or upgrade kits or any form of Shimano part, they only have parts for new bikes. Whether what I've been told is right or not, I don't know.
I am very frustrated that I keep hearing "yes we can" then it becomes "actually, no" when you get into the details.
I used the bike for 15 miles of flat urban riding today, not the usual riding it gets but I needed a bike for a journey. I'm actually feeling ill afterwards , the resistance from the drive train left me unwell. It used a lot of battery for the distance too, particularly given it was flat and the effort I put in. I bought the bike partly for medical reasons to keep riding and avoid feeling like this so that makes it all the more frustrating.
I'll see what the E8000 position turns into but sourcing an EP-8 from abroad is looking tempting at this point.
JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite
Slightly off-topic but the fact you are being messed around so badly by one of the "premier" cycle companies in the world is baffling to me. Santa Cruz should be doing MUCH more to help here.
- Thread starter
- #49
I really want to like Santa Cruz and they've been great in the past, I really do like the bikes and I bought this bike partly as I assumed they'd help resolve any issues. It is why this experience grates so much, it baffles me too and is why I shared the experience
.
RowanTheKiwi
Member
I've just had a brush with warranty issues and it's just showing how critical good warranties & replacement parts are on these bikes now. It was one thing when bikes were say $3-4000GBP / $6-8000NZD, but now they're just staggering money and can be rendered very expensive pile of carbon, stainless and wires.
It's probably worth a global shared spreadsheet of "I'm out of warranty and I'm hosed" to see what the scale of it's going to be. If I were a betting man there's going to be a *lot* of unhappy people who've dumped down $15-20+k NZD on high end emtbs only to be left high and dry in a few years when the inevitable happens. They're big, they're heavy, and on rough/wet terrain the chance of failure is multiplied than regular ole acoustics - given the frameset and motors are intrinsically linked that really does call into question (unless bike companies are keeping immense stock) how long the realistic service life is before full replacement is needed.
I live in Nelson, NZ And I can't see on gods green earth how my rail or motor is going to make it to 5 years. Just had to warranty a cracked chainstay in my first year of living here, warrantied a carbon rim in the first 3months (!!) - the terrain is brutal (and to be fair no worse that what some of the ads show the Rail in use on !!). I'm not a big boy or a heavy hitter - it's just these bikes are so damn quick, carrying a lot of extra weight, and well, physics...
I'd be surprised (happy to be proven wrong) if a frameset&motor makes to 5 years here on a regularly ridden bike on the Grade5&6 trails.
{thankfully in NZ we've got the consumer gaurentees act... }
It's probably worth a global shared spreadsheet of "I'm out of warranty and I'm hosed" to see what the scale of it's going to be. If I were a betting man there's going to be a *lot* of unhappy people who've dumped down $15-20+k NZD on high end emtbs only to be left high and dry in a few years when the inevitable happens. They're big, they're heavy, and on rough/wet terrain the chance of failure is multiplied than regular ole acoustics - given the frameset and motors are intrinsically linked that really does call into question (unless bike companies are keeping immense stock) how long the realistic service life is before full replacement is needed.
I live in Nelson, NZ And I can't see on gods green earth how my rail or motor is going to make it to 5 years. Just had to warranty a cracked chainstay in my first year of living here, warrantied a carbon rim in the first 3months (!!) - the terrain is brutal (and to be fair no worse that what some of the ads show the Rail in use on !!). I'm not a big boy or a heavy hitter - it's just these bikes are so damn quick, carrying a lot of extra weight, and well, physics...
I'd be surprised (happy to be proven wrong) if a frameset&motor makes to 5 years here on a regularly ridden bike on the Grade5&6 trails.
{thankfully in NZ we've got the consumer gaurentees act... }
davosaurusrex
E*POWAH Master
Why do you say that about Brose?
Having had the chance to think about this. I believe the "gen1" Heckler frame isn't approved for the EP8 motor. Manufacturers have to do type approval for their ebikes and the components they choose to use. I've never heard of a manufacturer going back to update the type approval of previous model years as new components are introduced. But I could be wrong.
It makes sense to swap like for like. It would be interesting to hear if Shimano have replaced an E8000 with an EP8 for anyone else though.
It does of course suck having to pay the same for a replacement E8000 as for an EP8. But I can see why Shimano have rules for this. There should be no rules stopping them from getting you an E8000.
@DJ57UMP theoretically had this lined up (mentioned in this thread ) :
Frustrations with Shimano and Santa Cruz in the UK
I have a Santa Cruz Heckler with a Shimano E8000 motor. I really do love the bike, it has taken me places and done things I'd never have seen/done otherwise. It's decent spec and is now 2.5 years old and out of warranty. Knowing what I know now, I couldn't in good conscience advise anyone to...
www.emtbforums.com
There was more info in his original thread at the time (but he bought a levo instead) :
Madison confirm EP8 available as upgrade - INFO
I have a 2 year old Santa Cruz Heckler X01. She's rocking i9 Reserves, Factory 36's, AXS dropper and Mech - so great spec. She's out of warranty with Shimano so I've been looking at it and thinking about what I do if the motor goes. Plus I have an EP8 Heckler MX and really think the EP8 is a...
www.emtbforums.com
Yeah, I was going to do this and Howard and the guys at Pedal & Spoke were well up for it.@DJ57UMP theoretically had this lined up (mentioned in this thread ) :
Frustrations with Shimano and Santa Cruz in the UK
I have a Santa Cruz Heckler with a Shimano E8000 motor. I really do love the bike, it has taken me places and done things I'd never have seen/done otherwise. It's decent spec and is now 2.5 years old and out of warranty. Knowing what I know now, I couldn't in good conscience advise anyone to...
There was more info in his original thread at the time (but he bought a levo instead) :
Madison confirm EP8 available as upgrade - INFO
I have a 2 year old Santa Cruz Heckler X01. She's rocking i9 Reserves, Factory 36's, AXS dropper and Mech - so great spec. She's out of warranty with Shimano so I've been looking at it and thinking about what I do if the motor goes. Plus I have an EP8 Heckler MX and really think the EP8 is a...
I thought I had an email from Jungle to say that Maddison could supply Pedal & Spoke the motor and update for the Heckler Spec - but I can't find it. It might be that they emailed Howard directly?
In the end I decided that I'd cut my losses with Shimano and jump ship to a new bike/motor. I wanted something I knew I could just go buy a new motor if I wanted to. I'm the kind of rider that likes to have a spare of everything on the shelf just in case... and if I wanted I could go to Spesh or a Spesh dealer and buy a motor that would sit on my shelf waiting to be needed...
I really felt let down by Santa Cruz. I've loved riding my Bronsons/Nomads/Chameleon but when they stuck me with Shimano and then appeared to wash their hands of them it told me a lot about what they actually think.
agree - while it is annoying that the OP cant upgrade from e8000 to the ep8, its not surprising that the various parties involved in this wont facilitate it.
If the OP was not able to get a replacement e8000 motor at all (either under warranty or purchased) then it would be a justified complaint, but seeing as they will give/sell you an e8000 motor (they will do this wont they? or have I missed something),I think you're going to have to just accept this, its not ideal, but the bike with a new e8000 motor is still the exact same bike you bought originally and will be working fine.
cappuccino34
Active member
Because they're dreadfully unreliable, so much so that Spesh felt the need to double their warranty period to four years.
The new motors are better, now they're only 'very poor', whereas before they were 'dire'.
davosaurusrex
E*POWAH Master
Yes, have been following the thread on the Specialized section but isn't their warranty still the best in the business and also don't seem to have any significant supply issues? Not ideal but would seem to offset the poor reliability to a large extent
cappuccino34
Active member
Yes, to be fair their support is the best, but it needs to be because otherwise nobody would buy their bikes (which are greatly overpriced for a given spec).
A customer of mine who is a specialized dealer said that they factor in the cost of three replacement motors for each bike, which is why they're so expensive.
Myself, I'd sooner go for a more reliable option, but we're not all the same and there's no 'right' or 'wrong'.
I do have a Specialized, but it's the much more reliable SL version (which doesn't have enough power to break itself. :-D )
davosaurusrex
E*POWAH Master
Agreed, I would never entertain A Specialized before due to their crazy prices but the recent reduction has me interested although I think they still need to come down a bit more
Ahh, thanks. I was trying to understand the problem, so I guess I skipped some posts that didn't appear to be related. Not easy getting everything straight when you've got the flu :-o
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