First ride...shock setup questions

[CatButt]

SO, I got my bike on Friday, installed MOST of the Invisframe and installed my CushCore front and rear. Made my personal setups changes. And tried to get the bike to shift into 11th...I think the freehub needs a .5 mm spacer...but more on that as it sorts itself out.

Suspension setup...now recently I bought a ShockWiz. Had some interesting observations using this on my Evil Following MB. I bought it as I was having issues (so I thought) setting up that bike. It is a VERY progressive suspension...VERY poppy off everything...and does not have that trophy truck feeling I was used to with other suspension designs. After a dozen or so rides with the ShockWiz on I came to realize that my suspension was almost spot on. The ShockWiz had me clicking one or two things here and there, changing a little bit of air pressure here and there...but it was really close according to the Wiz.

All that said, I feel pretty confident setting up a bike...but this YT has me baffled...I'm 220lbs with gear on...normally putting that in the shock will get you pretty close. NOPE...I'm at 250psi and still over 50% sag...WAY too much. It's so far off I can't even mess with the clickers too much and certainly can't even guess at volume spacers. Because of this the bike so low I was getting pedal strikes by the minute. It's a low bike as it is so rising so low in the stroke didn't help this at all.

Oddly, the front fork set at recommended air pressure it feels like I need to remove a volume spacer...normally I need to add one. The fork also felt really harsh...however, I was just using the stock dampening settings based on my recommended air pressure.

So, my question...did anyone else have issues setting up the suspension or getting used to the feel? Was your shock psi WAY different than your ridding weight? How about the fork...was the fork recommended settings pretty close? What sag percentages are you running front and rear?

Thanks much

 

[33red]

Suspension set-up guides and info - EMTB Forums

 

[CatButt]

Yeah...super generic stuff...but I'm sure helpful to some. I think my questions may be more Decoy specific.

 

[steve_sordy]

I have taken an interest in setting up suspension, but I'm no expert. I too was a bit puzzled by the suspension on my Focus Jam2. The fork and shock pressures were a lot higher than I was expecting, surely that can't all be due to the bike weighing an additional 7kg. I can understand that the leverage ratio on the rear suspension will influence the shock pressure, but the fork pressure should move in line with combined weight and desired sag, surely?

My last two clockwork bikes compared to my emtb all had Rockshox suspension and all forks were 35mm stanchion forks. .

I weigh 14.5 stone in my riding gear (203lbs, 92kg)

YT Capra, 160mm, 30% sag, weight 12.9kg
Fork psi 45, tokens 2,
Shock psi 170, rings std no (?)

Whyte T130, 130mm, 28% sag, weight 13.2kg
Fork psi 65, tokens 2
Shock psi 145, rings 3

Focus Jam2, 150mm, 28% sag, weight 20.4kg
Fork psi 150, tokens none
Shock psi 230, rings std (?)

I was very happy with the Capra's final setting. I never had to do anything to the shock, but I experimented with the fork before settling on 2 tokens. Equally happy with the Whyte, except that the changes were the other way around. I never had to do anything with the fork, but the shock needed 3 rings.

Initially I was unhappy with the fork on the Focus and after a bedding in period, I removed its single token, now very happy. The shock on the Focus goes through its travel much more readily, but to date has not pushed off the O ring. It's not causing me a problem yet, so I've left it. Maybe climbing would be improved if I added some rings. When I get the bike from from the menders (warranty claim on sheared lower shock mounting bolt), I will experiment with additional rings.

Overall, I am concerned about the Focus suspension needing so much additional pressure, the shock in particular. Pumping up to 230 psi is not only hard work, but it implies a higher force on the shock mounting bolt and the bushes. The force will rocket when I actually use the bike.

 

[CatButt]

Yeah...I thought about the additional bike weight...when I take my riding weight and add to it the difference between my ebike and non ebike it's another 30lbs...so 250 psi seems reasonable if I look at that way. But even at 250psi my sag is still way off. And you're right...that much pressure is extra load and stress on all the associated bits.

Max psi is 300...I'm no small guy but was always comfortable with my psi settings...now that I am closer to the shock max I'm not so comfortable.

 

[steve_sordy]

............

Max psi is 300...I'm no small guy but was always comfortable with my psi settings...now that I am closer to the shock max I'm not so comfortable.

Maybe you are a candidate for a coil shock?

 

[Camstyn]

Yeah...I thought about the additional bike weight...when I take my riding weight and add to it the difference between my ebike and non ebike it's another 30lbs...so 250 psi seems reasonable if I look at that way. But even at 250psi my sag is still way off. And you're right...that much pressure is extra load and stress on all the associated bits.

Max psi is 300...I'm no small guy but was always comfortable with my psi settings...now that I am closer to the shock max I'm not so comfortable.

Are you going by what the shockwiz tells you for sag, or are you measuring sag manually? Fox x2 I presume?

 

[CatButt]

Are you going by what the shockwiz tells you for sag, or are you measuring sag manually? Fox x2 I presume?

I'm doing both and they are very close to one another. I default to the actual measurement though and use that as my final check. Yes, Fox X2 Factory

 

[Camstyn]

I'm doing both and they are very close to one another. I default to the actual measurement though and use that as my final check. Yes, Fox X2 Factory

Interesting. Something sounds off, if you’re still at 50% sag it’s way off. When you did the calibration wizard did you use your air pump to deflate the shock slowly? When you refilled itdid you cycle the shock 10x at every 50psi increment?

 

[jt21]

so i finally got my tires back and setup my bike today and seeing the same thing. I am definitely a big dude 227lbs....set the x2 to 250 and am also using about 50-60% on sag and flat travel....

 

[Lee Dove]

so i finally got my tires back and setup my bike today and seeing the same thing. I am definitely a big dude 227lbs....set the x2 to 250 and am also using about 50-60% on sag and flat travel....

I would add some tokens to the rear shock to reduce that sag as you are already at a high pressure. You want approx 25-30 % so half of your current numbers.

 

[Camstyn]

Your X2 has 3 volume spacers in it and it can hold 5.

 

[CatButt]

Interesting. Something sounds off, if you’re still at 50% sag it’s way off. When you did the calibration wizard did you use your air pump to deflate the shock slowly? When you refilled itdid you cycle the shock 10x at every 50psi increment?

I would add some tokens to the rear shock to reduce that sag as you are already at a high pressure. You want approx 25-30 % so half of your current numbers.

I'm pretty sure tokens won't change sag. Tokens really only function in the deeper part of the stroke and increase the rate that pressure increases as the shock compresses. Before making any other adjustment...and I mean any...the base sag has to be set...token are several steps down the road.

 

[tedturbine]

Have you looked on the fox site, eg

SHOCK- 2019 FLOAT X2 | Bike Help Center | FOX

When adding air to the air chamber, it is important to equalize the positive and negative air chambers by slowly compressing the shock through 25% of its travel 10-20 times after every 50psi addition.

• Adding air to the shock without periodically equalizing the air chambers can lead to a condition in which the shock has more pressure in the positive chamber than the negative. In this condition the shock will be very stiff and can top-out. You can equalize the air chambers by slowly compressing the shock until you feel and hear a transfer of air. Hold the shock at this point for a few seconds to allow the air to transfer from the positive to the negative chamber.

When releasing air from the air chamber, it is important to do this slowly so the shock can transfer air from the negative to positive chamber and then be realeased through the Schrader valve.

• Releasing the air pressure too quickly can induce a condition in which the negative chamber has more pressure than the positive chamber. In this condition the shock will compress into its travel and not fully extend. You can remedy this by adding air pressure until the shock extends, then slowly compressing the shock through 25% of its travel 10-20 times.

There's a 4 char code on the shock that you can put into the fox site to get the details for your specific shock type (and forks)

I'm about 180lbs and ended up with about 205 psi in my 2019 fox x2 on my Commencal meta power for 30% sag.

I emptied the forks and shock and followed the fox process when I finished building the bike from new.

 

[Lee Dove]

I'm pretty sure tokens won't change sag. Tokens really only function in the deeper part of the stroke and increase the rate that pressure increases as the shock compresses. Before making any other adjustment...and I mean any...the base sag has to be set...token are several steps down the road.

The tokens change the spring rate through the whole stroke (apart from at the no load point) as they change the ramp up in spring rate, not just at the end part.

For the same static pressure you will get more spring load at the sag point with more tokens. It is all about percentage change in volume and more tokens = bigger percentage change in volume.

 

[CatButt]

The tokens change the spring rate through the whole stroke (apart from at the no load point) as they change the ramp up in spring rate, not just at the end part.

For the same static pressure you will get more spring load at the sag point with more tokens. It is all about percentage change in volume and more tokens = bigger percentage change in volume.

While tokens decrease volume and therefore increase pressure at the same amount of travel...tokens are NOT the way to set sag. There is not a single person that will say to add tokens to change the ride height (which is what sag is) of a suspension. If you know of someone citing to do so please post the source as I would love to read this first hand.

 

[CatButt]

Have you looked on the fox site, eg

SHOCK- 2019 FLOAT X2 | Bike Help Center | FOX

When adding air to the air chamber, it is important to equalize the positive and negative air chambers by slowly compressing the shock through 25% of its travel 10-20 times after every 50psi addition.

• Adding air to the shock without periodically equalizing the air chambers can lead to a condition in which the shock has more pressure in the positive chamber than the negative. In this condition the shock will be very stiff and can top-out. You can equalize the air chambers by slowly compressing the shock until you feel and hear a transfer of air. Hold the shock at this point for a few seconds to allow the air to transfer from the positive to the negative chamber.

When releasing air from the air chamber, it is important to do this slowly so the shock can transfer air from the negative to positive chamber and then be realeased through the Schrader valve.

• Releasing the air pressure too quickly can induce a condition in which the negative chamber has more pressure than the positive chamber. In this condition the shock will compress into its travel and not fully extend. You can remedy this by adding air pressure until the shock extends, then slowly compressing the shock through 25% of its travel 10-20 times.

There's a 4 char code on the shock that you can put into the fox site to get the details for your specific shock type (and forks)

I'm about 180lbs and ended up with about 205 psi in my 2019 fox x2 on my Commencal meta power for 30% sag.

I emptied the forks and shock and followed the fox process when I finished building the bike from new.

Yep...this is SOP since negative chambers were a thing in air suspension. I have never been able to hear the air pressure equalize...but I still do this procedure on all recent bikes. I wonder if the orifice is clogged and the air chamber is not equalizing??? The shock does not top out, but at my current air pressure the rebound dampening is pretty high, so that might be masking that. Maybe I'll take open the rebound all the way and see if the shock tops out at all. I have released all the air a couple of times in trouble shooting this (and setting up the ShockWiz)...but maybe one more time in a totally silent room with my ear on the shock to see if I can hear the air transfer.

Your Commencal may have a different leverage ratio so your difference in riding weight and air pressure might be vastly different than wht the Decoy needs. My pressure on my Following MB is almost exactly what my riding weight was and on my Ibis Mojo the air pressure was less...different bikes, same trails, same riding style...different air pressure.

 

[Mikerb]

Seems pretty clear the shock is faulty if all attempts to correctly set it up have failed.

 

[CatButt]

Seems pretty clear the shock is faulty if all attempts to correctly set it up have failed.

I sure hope not...gonna try again from scratch tonight...even gonna take the shock out to see if something is binding in the linkage. Was kinda hoping for more data from Decoy owners to what their riding weight is vs. their shock psi.

 

[Lee Dove]

While tokens decrease volume and therefore increase pressure at the same amount of travel...tokens are NOT the way to set sag. There is not a single person that will say to add tokens to change the ride height (which is what sag is) of a suspension. If you know of someone citing to do so please post the source as I would love to read this first hand.

Fine if that is what you think, don't bother trying it.

You have 2 alternatives then:
1. More pressure. Max of 300 is a safe limit so being at or very close should not cause a problem. If FOX put out a shock that blew at 301 they would soon get in a lot of legal bother.

2. Lose some weight

 

[Gary]

Yeah...super generic stuff...but I'm sure helpful to some. I think my questions may be more Decoy specific.

Your questions are not really Decoy specific. They're just fairly generic suspension questions about air spring pressure set-up which you clearly don't understand. ie. Shock pressure NOT simply being correlative to rider weight.
Try reading the info in the link @33red has given to you instead of dismissing it as "super generic stuff". The answers to ALL your questions are in there plain to read. Once you've read/watched and understood all that set-up info you'll have the knowledge to set-up any suspension configuration fairly well.
The Decoy is a basic 4 bar horst suspension linkage with a progressive LC and a very common shock. Some might even describe that as "super generic"

Happy reading

 

[CatButt]

Fine if that is what you think, don't bother trying it.

You have 2 alternatives then:
1. More pressure. Max of 300 is a safe limit so being at or very close should not cause a problem. If FOX put out a shock that blew at 301 they would soon get in a lot of legal bother.

2. Lose some weight

Of course the shock won't blow at 301...do you have any idea what the pressures look while riding?

You are really committed to using tokens as a way to achieve sag...just to check myself last night I read and watched every video I could and no one, not a single person mentioned your idea and actually they all said the exact oposite...tokens were the very last thing in the tuning process. And some even said to remove all tokens prior to setting sag.

Again, if you have a source that says to use tokens to help achieve proper sag I'd love to see it. I'm all about learning new and more stuff, so bring it on.

 

[33red]

Of course the shock won't blow at 301...do you have any idea what the pressures look while riding?

You are really committed to using tokens as a way to achieve sag...just to check myself last night I read and watched every video I could and no one, not a single person mentioned your idea and actually they all said the exact oposite...tokens were the very last thing in the tuning process. And some even said to remove all tokens prior to setting sag.

Again, if you have a source that says to use tokens to help achieve proper sag I'd love to see it. I'm all about learning new and more stuff, so bring it on.

Online we read lots. Often i just email the manufacturer and get a quick reply.

 

[Lee Dove]

You are really committed to using tokens as a way to achieve sag...just to check myself last night I read and watched every video I could and no one, not a single person mentioned your idea and actually they all said the exact oposite...tokens were the very last thing in the tuning process. And some even said to remove all tokens prior to setting sag.

One last comment. Why do you remove pressure when adding tokens to maintain sag ?

 

[Gary]

*Hopefuly so you don't get your top cap/ratchet smashing you in the face when you remove it.
I do wonder about hits to the frontal lobe around here though




*or have i just ruined your cunning prank?

 

[CatButt]

Online we read lots. Often i just email the manufacturer and get a quick reply.

Yep or you can read and watch vids FROM the manufacturers...like the Fox videos and their setup guides. Or the vids from Vorsprung, one of the most well know and respected suspension tuners. The internet is, indeed full of crap, but also a great resource.

 

[Lee Dove]

*Hopefuly so you don't get your top cap/ratchet smashing you in the face when you remove it.
I do wonder about hits to the frontal lobe around here though




*or have i just ruined your cunning prank?

I did not mean during the actual process of adding the tokens (which you do know ).

 

[Mikerb]

One last comment. Why do you remove pressure when adding tokens to maintain sag ?

because the volume of air has been reduced.

 

[CatButt]

One last comment. Why do you remove pressure when adding tokens to maintain sag ?

You may or may not have to change air pressure when you add or remove tokens. Sag is unrelated to the tokens completely. You always set sag first...that base psi will determine roughly where your rebound settings are. Tokens are literally the last thing in the setup process. And because they do what they do the base air pressure needs to be reset to get proper sag...then repeat the process again...and more than likely you'll be good to go. If you are gonna ride something with a ton of flat landings or bigger drops you may need to add a token to resist bottoming...in that case you will have likely already added a click or two to high speed compression.

You got that link to your source for using tokens to set or assist with sag?

 

[CatButt]

Your questions are not really Decoy specific. They're just fairly generic suspension questions about air spring pressure set-up which you clearly don't understand. ie. Shock pressure NOT simply being correlative to rider weight.
Try reading the info in the link @33red has given to you instead of dismissing it as "super generic stuff". The answers to ALL your questions are in there plain to read. Once you've read/watched and understood all that set-up info you'll have the knowledge to set-up any suspension configuration fairly well.
The Decoy is a basic 4 bar horst suspension linkage with a progressive LC and a very common shock. Some might even describe that as "super generic"

Happy reading

Pretty aggro of you state I don't anything about setting up suspension. Quite the opposite. However...yes the YT is a four bar, yet even between 4 bar setups the leverage on the shock can be quite different. Which will, in turn net different pressures to achieve the same sag. Hence why I asked specifically to Decoy owners what their experience with setting up is.

Setting up a suspension is pretty basic. My "generic" comment was because his links were for generically setting up any suspension, right. You see, I am troubleshooting an issue...when all the normal procedures dont net the result you are looking for you start to troubleshoot it. Part of troubleshooting is researching what others have experienced.

Again...for Decoy owners...have you had an issue setting sag using the general rule of ride weight=psi?