Fires

[wepn]

Mike Kelly MP - the Member for Eden-Monaro - has written a very detailed & far-sighted commentary - because "it is crucial to stimulate thinking even as we fight".

www.facebook.com/111295601527/posts/10158008320401528/?d=n

Excerpt -

..
We need to invest in drones that can provide long lingering coverage during fire seasons in high-risk areas and near population centres, using sensors that can detect very low thermal and smoke signatures. The ACT has invested in a rotary wing asset that provides this, which was deployed to great effect in managing the North Black Range fire near Braidwood. Still, such options are expensive compared to multiple drone solutions, where no pilot fatigue is a factor. Drones can constantly be patrolling when there is no fire so that we can vector as quickly as possible to an ignition, hopefully before it becomes a mega-fire.

Another massive issue relates to personnel capacity. A firefighter out there on the front line in the current crisis who I have been staying in touch with told me, “The volunteers are buggered, mate. My brigade has been running back to back crews day and night coming up to 6 weeks. Our previous record is 4”.

The Climate Council estimates that by 2030 we will need double the number of firefighters we have now. The current model of response will not be adequate or sustainable to deal with this. I have called for greater use of the ADF (Australian Defence Force) as part of a national emergency response in the current crisis. On 4 January the Prime Minister finally responded by announcing that Army Reserves would be called out and additional Regular Army forces deployed.
..

 

[steve_sordy]

That Mike Kelly guy makes more sense than most of the MPs in the UK that I have ever seen or heard from!

 

[Pdoz]

That Mike Kelly guy makes more sense than most of the MPs in the UK that I have ever seen or heard from!

superficially, but dig a bit deeper. He's talking about enlisting AND COMBINING a national disaster volunteer service?

We have an amazing volunteer service in this country - the volunteer fire fighters, ses ( state emergency service) , volunteer ambulance workers ( being slowly replaced by employed workers) , not to mention the support groups like red cross, the salvos, wildlife carers etc. Would you volunteer as eg a roadside rest stop worker if you thought you might be conscripted / frequently deployed to disasters in roles you were not volunteering for? As a small business owner, I'd start thinking twice about employing people with volunteer on their cv rather than preferentially employing them like I do at the moment. When a cfa / ses worker is out in the field, we're left looking for replacement staff AND still paying the volunteers wage - if they were going to be dragged away more frequently this becomes quite a burden.

I'm not saying he's wrong, but I feel our already exhausted volunteer networks would implode if you put extra demands / uncertainty on them plus took away their individual culture / sense of pride.

Now lets start thinking about training - there are massive time demands already to maintain each organisations roles. Train and maintain for a chainsaw ticket , truck licence, first aid certificate, radio licence, the list goes on. If you start expecting cross agency skills that means cross agency training as well ?

Big questions for a huge problem , we need a lot more than some finger pointing and polispeak before next summer.

 

[wepn]

superficially, but dig a bit deeper. He's talking about enlisting AND COMBINING a national disaster volunteer service?

We have an amazing volunteer service in this country - the volunteer fire fighters, ses ( state emergency service) , volunteer ambulance workers ( being slowly replaced by employed workers) , not to mention the support groups like red cross, the salvos, wildlife carers etc. Would you volunteer as eg a roadside rest stop worker if you thought you might be conscripted / frequently deployed to disasters in roles you were not volunteering for? As a small business owner, I'd start thinking twice about employing people with volunteer on their cv rather than preferentially employing them like I do at the moment. When a cfa / ses worker is out in the field, we're left looking for replacement staff AND still paying the volunteers wage - if they were going to be dragged away more frequently this becomes quite a burden.

I'm not saying he's wrong, but I feel our already exhausted volunteer networks would implode if you put extra demands / uncertainty on them plus took away their individual culture / sense of pride.

Now lets start thinking about training - there are massive time demands already to maintain each organisations roles. Train and maintain for a chainsaw ticket , truck licence, first aid certificate, radio licence, the list goes on. If you start expecting cross agency skills that means cross agency training as well ?

Big questions for a huge problem , we need a lot more than some finger pointing and polispeak before next summer.

Huge questions for an existential crisis.

To avoid finger pointing and polispeak, we need to use judicial means to remove those who had oversight - those who ignored the warnings, the alerts and the alarm. The ones that said we had nothing to talk about. That needs to be done without the finger pointing and polispeak.

An emergency government of national unity with scientific oversight should then be formed. We will not recover if we have the same political mindset in government.

We cannot afford years more of denial and fraudulent governance from the likes of Craig Kelly MP - he who represented those very people on morning TV in the UK overnight. He and all of his knuckle dragging cohorts need to resign immediately.

 

[steve_sordy]

@Pdoz I am ill-equipped to dig any deeper because I am not an Australian and I have zero knowledge of what sounds like an amazing volunteer ethos in your lovely country. If the fire season is going to get any longer and the fires any worse in the coming years (and the floods and the hurricanes etc) then it sounds like something more permanent is required. Having an army of volunteers speaks well of your country, very well indeed. But it looks as though they have been stretched to breaking point and something needs to be done, but what? You make some very good points and so did Mike Kelly. There must be a way through this. Without reading through it again to check the accuracy of my memory, I believe that Mike Kelly said he was putting it out there for others to consider and improve, not as his solution to be implemented. Someone has to make the first call to action and get the discussion going.

 

[ggx]

We had big fires and dozens of casualties in recent years in Portugal . The numbers/dimension in Australia are also staggering.
Keep safe and strong out there .

 

[Pdoz]

@Pdoz I am ill-equipped to dig any deeper because I am not an Australian and I have zero knowledge of what sounds like an amazing volunteer ethos in your lovely country. If the fire season is going to get any longer and the fires any worse in the coming years (and the floods and the hurricanes etc) then it sounds like something more permanent is required. Having an army of volunteers speaks well of your country, very well indeed. But it looks as though they have been stretched to breaking point and something needs to be done, but what? You make some very good points and so did Mike Kelly. There must be a way through this. Without reading through it again to check the accuracy of my memory, I believe that Mike Kelly said he was putting it out there for others to consider and improve, not as his solution to be implemented. Someone has to make the first call to action and get the discussion going.

A sustainable solution would be wonderfull, sadly the discussion gets fragmented between national / state and even regional service / responsibility. The response is improving, I remember the 06 fire season and the legal / political fall out that followed - we lost some amazing long term volunteers from the finger pointing etc. With any luck it'll be the prick at the pointy end of the pyramid that we lose this time .

Meanwhile, back at the ranch - we got a truck load of water in our tank yesterday which is a relief. Most if the local cartage tankers are delivering to towns east without water supply - amazing response from everyone.

Ryturn - where are you at with your travels? If you're planning to migrate back south and need somewhere to stop I'm in Maffra ( just nth of sale) - 7 acres of dust if you need to park for a while. Unfortunately on the nth end of town so potentially at risk if we get a few really bad days, but it's irrigated dairy to our south so not a terrible option for you - pm me if you want.

 

[ryturn]

thanks Pdoz we have been amazed at some of the kind offers. We are at our happy zone , Tathra, we were to sneek home under escort last night ,we made a dash from Cooma last base to Eden but enroute 4 twats with caravans tried to get out via Cann River have to be reteive by emergency services as the Princes hwy is closed and will be for awhile between Genoa and Orbost. Now Highway Patrol has blocked all but essential again.If the caravanners had of turned left they would now be going through Canberra on there way home . Our travelling party is now reduced to 2 as 1 female 2 kids were put on a boat and taken in by sea from Merimbula this morning . We have lots of possesions 2 cars 4 bikes not preprared to leave it all in a carpark for a week ,we headed for Tathra which also in in the fires area but relatively safe , we can help out if fire heads this and help clean up the last ash attack, everyone has an ash attack.if the smoke clears we may even hit the hill , we are super comfy for now. thanks for your offer

 

[Errol1098]

I think there's a much bigger issue here and blaming the bloke at the top is short sighted and politically biased in my opinion. He didn't start the fires, He has only been in power 6 months, yes he took holidays and other than it's a bad look him being away it didn't make any difference really unless he was going to fight fires like Tony Abbott does but then he got poleaxed by all and sundry for being a volunteer firefighter and a surf lifesaver wearing "budge smugglers". This event has been 20 years in the making and it's a distinct lack of preparation on all political parties, RFS and CFS. Bob Carr back in late 90's and early 2000's, was the one that closed easy access to the parks and he is from the "other side" of politics. And yes before someone asks I grew up in Cooma, have a house in Jindabyne and was on high alert last week. The amount of residents doing clean up and preparation last week was amazing as they all had as much notice that it was going to be bad as the Government did and all they had to prepare for was their 1/4 acre block not the entire east coast.

Just some good for thought - it' not as simple and the reports as accurate as some would like you to think

 

[ryturn]

I think there's a much bigger issue here and blaming the bloke at the top is short sighted and politically biased in my opinion. He didn't start the fires, He has only been in power 6 months, yes he took holidays and other than it's a bad look him being away it didn't make any difference really unless he was going to fight fires like Tony Abbott does but then he got poleaxed by all and sundry for being a volunteer firefighter and a surf lifesaver wearing "budge smugglers". This event has been 20 years in the making and it's a distinct lack of preparation on all political parties, RFS and CFS. Bob Carr back in late 90's and early 2000's, was the one that closed easy access to the parks and he is from the "other side" of politics. And yes before someone asks I grew up in Cooma, have a house in Jindabyne and was on high alert last week. The amount of residents doing clean up and preparation last week was amazing as they all had as much notice that it was going to be bad as the Government did and all they had to prepare for was their 1/4 acre block not the entire east coast.

Just some good for thought - it' not as simple and the reports as accurate as some would like you to think

Heh Errol , Saturday night was a hoot in Cooma ,the ash storm was just plain scary.

 

[wepn]

I think there's a much bigger issue here and blaming the bloke at the top is short sighted and politically biased in my opinion. He didn't start the fires, He has only been in power 6 months, yes he took holidays and other than it's a bad look him being away it didn't make any difference really unless he was going to fight fires like Tony Abbott does but then he got poleaxed by all and sundry for being a volunteer firefighter and a surf lifesaver wearing "budge smugglers". This event has been 20 years in the making and it's a distinct lack of preparation on all political parties, RFS and CFS. Bob Carr back in late 90's and early 2000's, was the one that closed easy access to the parks and he is from the "other side" of politics. And yes before someone asks I grew up in Cooma, have a house in Jindabyne and was on high alert last week. The amount of residents doing clean up and preparation last week was amazing as they all had as much notice that it was going to be bad as the Government did and all they had to prepare for was their 1/4 acre block not the entire east coast.

Just some good for thought - it' not as simple and the reports as accurate as some would like you to think

Wow. Let’s see.

Clear denial of catastrophic climate change downplaying wherever & whenever possible exemplified by bring a lump of coal into parliament.

Using accounting trickery to include historic Kyoto credits so to avoid any meaningful action in combating climate change.

Appointing Angus Taylor as Minister of Climate Change.

His refusal to meet, speak or listen to former fire chiefs who were warning with alarm about what was to come.

The secret Hawaiian holiday complete with Instagrammed selfies.

Shifting blame to the NSW government - his own party!

Blaming the Greens & environmentalists ludicrously for preventing hazard reduction.

Weeks of delay in authorising emergency military relief - only doing so after realising the scale & enormity of feeling against him and his feeble administration.

Grabbing the limp hands of people who lost everything despite them not wanting to shake his hand.

On the first sign of the massive scale of the catastrophe, calling a press conference on the subject of a Religious Discrimination Bill - no mention of bushfires. Not one.

Cricketers & fireworks at Kirribilli House while everything was going up in smoke.

Toxic air quality affecting millions. Not a word.

The party political marketing video complete with jingle attempting to broadcast what a great job they’re doing.

His party the LNP gutting funding for National Parks & Wildlife Service - the very people tasked with hazard reduction in the now all but incinerated ancient Gondwana rainforests while his state counterparts gutted the Rural Fire Service. Lack of preparation?

Refusing to pay tens of thousands of RFS volunteers, the only service fighting the fires - until forced to.

Not equipping them with proper respirators to prevent respiratory damage. A minor cost.

So much more but I’m going for a ride.

BTW which bike are you getting? I know from experience it's a long difficult decision making process. It can take years.

 

[ryturn]

Wow. Let’s see.

Clear denial of catastrophic climate change downplaying wherever & whenever possible exemplified by bring a lump of coal into parliament.

Using accounting trickery to include historic Kyoto credits so to avoid any meaningful action in combating climate change.

Appointing Angus Taylor as Minister of Climate Change.

His refusal to meet, speak or listen to former fire chiefs who were warning with alarm about what was to come.

The secret Hawaiian holiday complete with Instagrammed selfies.

Shifting blame to the NSW government - his own party!

Blaming the Greens & environmentalists ludicrously for preventing hazard reduction.

Weeks of delay in authorising emergency military relief - only doing so after realising the scale & enormity of feeling against him and his feeble administration.

Grabbing the limp hands of people who lost everything despite them not wanting to shake his hand.

On the first sign of the massive scale of the catastrophe, calling a press conference on the subject of a Religious Discrimination Bill - no mention of bushfires. Not one.

Cricketers & fireworks at Kirribilli House while everything was going up in smoke.

Toxic air quality affecting millions. Not a word.

The party political marketing video complete with jingle attempting to broadcast what a great job they’re doing.

His party the LNP gutting funding for National Parks & Wildlife Service - the very people tasked with hazard reduction in the now all but incinerated ancient Gondwana rainforests while his state counterparts gutted the Rural Fire Service. Lack of preparation?

Refusing to pay tens of thousands of RFS volunteers, the only service fighting the fires - until forced to.

Not equipping them with proper respirators to prevent respiratory damage. A minor cost.

So much more but I’m going for a ride.

BTW which bike are you getting? I know from experience it's a long difficult decision making process. It can take years.

l'd go for a ride too but it's too smoky for strenuous activity.
That list of f#ck ups and lack of sensitivity is sure growing, due in New Zealand for Crankworx in March may stay awhile.

 

[Pdoz]

Great list wepn, but you missed the do unto others factor. Lets not forget it was him who criticised Christine Nixon for being at lunch during a fire!

Errol, I'm not blaming the prick at the top - I'm just disgusted that taxpayers will be paying him a pension well after his political party decides his popularity figures are dropping. Volunteers get dragged in front of royal commissions yet opinion pole fishermen get a golden handshake. Oh, and I don't care which side of the political system they come from - this country is handing out pensions to figure heads at an alarming rate.

 

[Errol1098]

Great list wepn, but you missed the do unto others factor. Lets not forget it was him who criticised Christine Nixon for being at lunch during a fire!

Errol, I'm not blaming the prick at the top - I'm just disgusted that taxpayers will be paying him a pension well after his political party decides his popularity figures are dropping. Volunteers get dragged in front of royal commissions yet opinion pole fishermen get a golden handshake. Oh, and I don't care which side of the political system they come from - this country is handing out pensions to figure heads at an alarming rate.

and this is the reason I’m a denier - Christine Nixon wasn’t criticised for going to lunch it was dinner she went to. People put inaccuracies down and cause it’s on the inter web it must be true and by the time she went a whole bunch of people had already died in those fires. Who in the last 50 years would you pay a lifetime pension to? It’s just part of the job, if I could get in on it I would - I’m just jealous

 

[Errol1098]

Wow. Let’s see.

Clear denial of catastrophic climate change downplaying wherever & whenever possible exemplified by bring a lump of coal into parliament.

Using accounting trickery to include historic Kyoto credits so to avoid any meaningful action in combating climate change.

Appointing Angus Taylor as Minister of Climate Change.

His refusal to meet, speak or listen to former fire chiefs who were warning with alarm about what was to come.

The secret Hawaiian holiday complete with Instagrammed selfies.

Shifting blame to the NSW government - his own party!

Blaming the Greens & environmentalists ludicrously for preventing hazard reduction.

Weeks of delay in authorising emergency military relief - only doing so after realising the scale & enormity of feeling against him and his feeble administration.

Grabbing the limp hands of people who lost everything despite them not wanting to shake his hand.

On the first sign of the massive scale of the catastrophe, calling a press conference on the subject of a Religious Discrimination Bill - no mention of bushfires. Not one.

Cricketers & fireworks at Kirribilli House while everything was going up in smoke.

Toxic air quality affecting millions. Not a word.

The party political marketing video complete with jingle attempting to broadcast what a great job they’re doing.

His party the LNP gutting funding for National Parks & Wildlife Service - the very people tasked with hazard reduction in the now all but incinerated ancient Gondwana rainforests while his state counterparts gutted the Rural Fire Service. Lack of preparation?

Refusing to pay tens of thousands of RFS volunteers, the only service fighting the fires - until forced to.

Not equipping them with proper respirators to prevent respiratory damage. A minor cost.

So much more but I’m going for a ride.

BTW which bike are you getting? I know from experience it's a long difficult decision making process. It can take years.

Thanks for confirming your political bias - and I thought this wasn't a political post ? Me I'm one of the knuckle dragging climate deniers, yes I believe in climate change - it's cooler today than it was yesterday there's a climate change! I don't actually believe any of them _ AL Gore makes money out of the climate emergency, really and I should trust anything he says, cause he wouldn't say it to benefit his own pocket now would he? Me, I'm just here for the E-mtb stuff but every now and then I get sucked into a debate over something that I can't change - doh. I really liked what Joaquin Phoenix said in his acceptance speech the other night - celebrities getting up on stage saying how bad it is and sending love and hugs is great but stop flying private jets down to Palm breach with your friends for lunch, that will make a real difference - do you know how many resources it takes to build an E-MTB most using fossil fuels and where does the power come from to run them - hmmm. I like what Ghandi said (paraphrasing) don't tell others how to live "You must be the change you want to see in the world.”

Anyway back to E-MTB - I looked at Scott, GT and Specialized - got a mate that works for specialised but ended up with the new Moterra from Cannondale as I have connections there and I like the spec and price point of the new models - I'm an old guy who falls off way too much (dirt bike as well, just recovered from dislocated elbow - two stroke, sue me) so I don't need the absolute best. Just have to wait for the first batch to land in OZ later this month.

 

[Pdoz]

and . Who in the last 50 years would you pay a lifetime pension to? It’s just part of the job, if I could get in on it I would - I’m just jealous

keating and hawk, didn't like either but I don't resent them getting paid .

 

[Errol1098]

keating and hawk, didn't like either but I don't resent them getting paid .

really, Hawke was a drunk who allegedly covered up his daughters rape to get the top job, yeah great bloke worthy of our money, Keating gave us the recession we had to have and left the country in massive debt that John Howard took years to pay down

 

[Pdoz]

really, Hawke was a drunk who allegedly covered up his daughters rape to get the top job, yeah great bloke worthy of our money, Keating gave us the recession we had to have and left the country in massive debt that John Howard took years to pay down

yup, and they are the best of a crappy bunch

 

[wepn]

I believe

I don't actually believe

It doesn't matter what you, I or anyone else believes. What matters is the scientific process. Peer review scrutinises science and rejects non science. No doubt you will continue to cherrypick and believe or not believe based on your lack of understanding of science and political bias. You are not alone.

 

[Errol1098]

It doesn't matter what you, I or anyone else believes. What matters is the scientific process. Peer review scrutinises science and rejects non science. No doubt you will continue to cherrypick and believe or not believe based on your lack of understanding of science and political bias. You are not alone.

Yes and haven't you just done that by pulling two seperate sections and made it look like something else - that's why there are non believers. But you know what they say argue with an idiot.......


Don't reply I'm too busy, as I said I'm just here for the MTB stuff politics in an EmTB forum has no place

 

[wepn]

Yes and haven't you just done that by pulling two seperate sections and made it look like something else - that's why there are non believers. But you know what they say argue with an idiot.......

I have no idea what you're talking about & I am 100% certain you don't either.

 

[Errol1098]

I have no idea what you're talking about & I am 100% certain you don't either.

Blaa Blaa Blaa

 

[CjP]

This is why all forms of media are evil. Less fighting more eMTB guys

Add cat sounds

 

[wepn]

more eMTB guys

The place I loved riding the most has been destroyed. It will never ever be the same.

 

[CjP]

I know mate, give it some time to heal and it’ll be good again. In the mean time there’s always places to ride. Maybe some urban mtb, Redbull style!

 

[wepn]

give it some time to heal and it’ll be good again

The horrible truth is that it will not heal and it will never be good again. Our worst fears have materialised.

Maurizio Rossetto, an evolutionary ecologist at the Royal Botanic Garden Sydney, says that in Nightcap National Park, one of the Gondwana reserves, he fears for about 30 rare tree species and a similar number of rare animals, because their habitats have likely been destroyed. The park has some of Australia’s most biodiverse forests, “with high proportions of [species from] ancient, endemic lineages that go back to Gondwanan times” more than 60 million years ago. And it is precisely the absence of fire in the forests of Nightcap and nearby reserves that has allowed rare tree species to persist there, Rossetto notes. “Many of these trees have thin bark that does not provide protection against fire,” he says. He is particularly concerned about three species, each of which has just a few hundred remaining trees “tightly grouped in a single population.”

As fires rage across Australia, fears grow for rare species

 

[CjP]

The horrible truth is that it will not heal and it will never be good again. Our worst fears have materialised.



As fires rage across Australia, fears grow for rare species

That’s unfortunate mate, positive thoughts!

 

[Pdoz]

The place I loved riding the most has been destroyed. It will never ever be the same.

never the same, but hopefully some of the magic can recover . The real question is will it be the same for you?

After the 06 great divide fires it took about 2 years before I felt like riding the fire damaged areas - even then it was a mess. Those fires burnt for months and were extremely hot so there was deep soot everywhere and very few trees survived - the stuff that came back was saplings etc . Most of that country has now recovered, even had a few gentler burns - you have to look closely to see the scars.

Tathra was magical within a year of their last fires - the increased visibility almost made it better riding. Admittedly a much smaller fire and the town made an enormous effort at rehabilitation.

Buller / hotham / dinner plain seem to burn every second year - the riding / scenery is still amazing.

My hope is these fires have nudged the public mind enough for some real investment in environmental management. Hopefully after the finger pointing and blame game settles down we'll get some useful conversations and more importantly action.

 

[wepn]

My hope is these fires have nudged the public mind enough for some real investment in environmental management. Hopefully after the finger pointing and blame game settles down we'll get some useful conversations and more importantly action.

That would be my hope too except that so much of the most widely browsed mainstream media are blaming arsonists.

Unless the conversation is based on truthful scientific evidence then the only action will be ever increasing investment in law & order.

The action required is the most rapid pathway to carbon neutrality possible while at the same time investing extremely heavily in assisting developing nations to do the same.

When the Australian government ended payments to the GFC (Green Climate Fund) in 2018, a large part of that hope was reduced to ashes.

 

[Coopers]

I hope that this isn't true, but these fires are a perfect solution to our economic slowdown for our politicians. I hope they didn't ignore the danger of these fires that they were warned about for many months because they thought these fires would stimulate our economy.

The amount of jobs these fires have created is huge. The rebuilding effort etc etc. It's even better as the insurance companies will have to foot much of the rebuilding cost. So the government doesn't even have to pay a stimulus as the insurance companies will do it for them. And then there is the global donations people have been making. It's kind of like a voluntary tax. And what's the bet that we will find a new levy on our emergency services this year?