Ep801 solution

[Amber Valley Guy]

I'm blowing out my arse at 18-19mph max on a Ep8 that's gone past the 25kmh/15.5mph limit on a 36T chainring and larger 29" wheels on a flat road (not off-road).
I thought (I might be wrong I usually can be) that US motors had higher internal reduction gearing so that US riders can get to 20mph without having to pedal 30% faster, than our piddling 15.5mph limit. Anyone know if the motors reduction gearing is the same in both EU and North American motors?

 

[SEBA]

I'm blowing out my arse at 18-19mph max on a Ep8 that's gone past the 25kmh/15.5mph limit on a 36T chainring and larger 29" wheels on a flat road (not off-road).
I thought (I might be wrong I usually can be) that US motors had higher internal reduction gearing so that US riders can get to 20mph without having to pedal 30% faster, than our piddling 15.5mph limit. Anyone know if the motors reduction gearing is the same in both EU and North American motors?

i think all drive unit internal are the same

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

i think all drive unit internal are the same

I'm not so sure, there's a world of difference between a constant cadence of say for example 85-90ish for the UK/EU 15.5mph limit and 110-120ish (US 20mph) if there's no different internal gearing... US riders must be bloody fit and do they ever pedal through the limit, and at what cadence?

 

[Backflip]

I'm not so sure, there's a world of difference between a constant cadence of say for example 85-90ish for the UK/EU 15.5mph limit and 110-120ish (US 20mph) if there's no different internal gearing... US riders must be bloody fit and do they ever pedal through the limit, and at what cadence?

At least on Shimano systems the chainring has always the same speed that the crank with the pedals (and so also your cadence), at least when you are turning the crank in forward direction and thus the free wheeling mechanism inside the motor is not active.
So there is no internal gearing between the crank and the chainring on a Shimano motor, just the freewheeling mechanism.
All Shimano motors (does not matter if EU or US) are the same in this way.
This situation is different on e.g. some older Bosch (or maybe other vendors) drive units where there indeed is some internal motor gearing between crank and chainring and so crank and chainring are moving in different speeds.
So the speed of the bike in relation to the cadence at the crank on a Shimano based bike is always ONLY depending on the size of the chainring, the selected sprocket size of your rear cassette and for sure the rear wheel circumference!
The internal construction (including gearing) of the motor does not matter at all for your cadence.
Just check on any Shimano driven bike that the chainring is always going exactly in the same speed like your crank with pedals and your feet, just like on any "ordinary" bike.
So, there is definitely NO difference regarding this issue on Shimano drive units no matter if it is a US or an EU version.
If you don´t want to pedal with high cadence on a US based bike, then you have to mount a larger chainring.
However, maybe bikes delivered to the US market already will get delivered with such a larger chainring (or maybe even a smaller smallest sprocket on the rear cassette) which would make sense to avoid the annoying "sqirrel cage feeling" with (too) high cadence.

Just to add some calculations:
My EP801 driven bike has the following parameters:
wheel circumference: 2300mm (29")
smallest rear sprocket: 10 teeth
chainring size: 34 teeth
This configuration will result in a cadence of 85rpm when going 40kph, which is easily manageable with the 600W max. peak power and max. 85Nm of the EP801.
The calculation for this is quite easy: 40.000m / 2,3m / 60 / 3,4.
Unfortunately the bike frame is limiting me to use a larger chainring size.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

At least on Shimano systems the chainring has always the same speed that the crank with the pedals (and so also your cadence), at least when you are turning the crank in forward direction and the free wheeling mechanism is not active.
So there is no internal gearing between your crank and your chainring on a Shimano motor, just the freewheeling mechanism.
So, all Shimano motors (does not matter if EU or US) are the same in this way.
This situation is different on e.g. some older Bosch (or maybe other vendors) drive units with some internal motor gearing between crank and chainring.
So the speed of the bike in relation to your cadence at the crank on a Shimano based bike is always ONLY depending on the size of the chainring, the wheel circumference, and the selected sprocket size of your rear cassette!
The internal gearing of the motor does not matter at all for this.
Just check on any Shimano driven bike that the chainring is always going exactly in the same speed like your crank with pedals and your feet, just like on any ordinary bike.
So, there is definitely NO difference regarding this issue on Shimano drive units no matter if it is a US or a EU version.
If you don´t want to pedal with high cadence on a US based bike, then you have to mount a larger chainring.
However, maybe bikes delivered to the US market already will get delivered with such a larger chainring (or maybe even a smaller smallest sprocket on the rear cassette) which would make sense.

Oh, all the e-bike motors that I've come across are internally gear reduced (lowered) from the motor stator spinning at say 3000rpm (the spinning electric motor shaft) to the physical external output shaft via a set of gears (crankshaft/output/drive shaft) that your pedal crank arms attach to. A 10 or 20 % change in these gears would have little affect in the lower gears (the larger rear cassette sprockets) but a huge affect on the taller smaller rear sprockets of the cassette allowing the same cadence to give higher or lower speeds. On old school Bafang BS 01/O2/HD units this was done by the chainring size. In other words the chainring size is the same size on modern e- motors regardless of market BECAUSE of the different internal reduction gearing for different world markets.

 

[Backflip]

In other words the chainring size is the same size on modern e- motors regardless of market BECAUSE of the different internal reduction gearing for different world markets.

...I completely understand your thoughts, but this is not the case on Shimano drive units and I don´t agree that the Shimano motor is not a "modern e- motor". I´m quite happy with my baby.
But every aspect mostly has a downside and if there will be (or indeed is) a gear reduction between the crank and the chainring inside the motor, this is always related to an additional efficiency loss (every mechanical reduction has losses).
This is also why the great Rohloff hub (with internal gearing) has an efficiency lacking related to the good old derailleur gearing. Every honest Rohloff hub user (I love Rohloff a lot) will admit that any derailleur gear switching works more efficiently. However, the great Rohloff hub gearing has unbeaten advantages in mud, dirt and other really bad environment.
Most probably this efficiency loss is the reason why Shimano was chosing the direct coupling between crank and chainring with just a freewheeling mechanism (which will not create any significant efficiency loss).

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

...I completely understand your thoughts, but this is not the case on Shimano drive units and I don´t agree that the Shimano motor is not a "modern e- motor". I´m quite happy with my baby.

So what cadence would you say you need to hit to do 31mph/50kmh on 27.5 wheels and a 38t chainring?

 

[Backflip]

So what cadence would you say you need to hit to do 31mph/50kmh on 27.5 wheels and a 38t chainring?

It´s not a question of what I´m saying - it´s just a simple calculation.
However, there are some parameters missing for the proper calculation:
- missing size of the smallest rear sprocket (which for sure will and shoud be used in this case)
- real size (wheel circumference) of the 27,5" wheel => A 27,5" wheel can easily have a wheel circumference of less than 2150mm or more than 2300mm, depending on air pressure, type of tire and curent state of tyre.

So, let´s assume you are also using a smallest sprocket with 10 teeth and your real wheel circumference is 2200mm, so then the calculation for your cadence is: 50.000m / 2,2m / 60 / 3,8 => exactly 100rpm, which is quite a lot but 50kph is quite a lot too.
...over and out for today - I have to leave the keyboard now.

 

[Fielonator]

So what cadence would you say you need to hit to do 31mph/50kmh on 27.5 wheels and a 38t chainring?

I've got no idea, but not so high that I've been tempted to check. I could have checked, cadence is indicated on once of the screens, but I don't normally have it displayed. I can maintain 30mph on the flat for a couple of miles without killing myself. This is with motor support.

I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'll make the point anyway...... With the motor derestricted it doesn't take much effort to exceed 15mph, pass 20mph, and reach a comfortable cruising speed of 25mph, using the gear range to maintain a fairly constant cadence. Apparently the motor works better at higher cadences. Pedaling faster doesn't seem that much harder while the motor is doing most of the work.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Total b/s that's for a normal analogue bike with no internal motor gear reduction, not any eeb, that's why roadies can pass us so easily (in the UK) I'm doing over 110 cadence at 18mph on flat roads with (relatively tall) 36T x 10 with 29" wheels. 50kmh at 100 cadence on a EU spec eeb, no way. I call it's nonsense.

 

[Fielonator]

Total b/s that's for a normal analogue bike with no internal motor gear reduction, not any eeb, that's why roadies can pass us so easily (in the UK) I'm doing over 110 cadence at 18mph on flat roads with (relatively tall) 36T x 10 with 29" wheels. 50kmh at 100 cadence on a EU spec eeb, no way. I call it's nonsense.

Ok, I'm out.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Ok, I'm out.

You're out why, its a good bit of little spoken about US Vs EU eebs banter. Your calculations work out except you're saying I should be doing 50 rpm / cadence to hit the UK / EU limit of 15.5mph/25kmh limit if 31mph equals 100 crank cadence, and that just isn't true. Anyone disagree?

 

[Cleggy]

You're out why, its a good bit of little spoken about US Vs EU eebs banter. Your calculations work out except you're saying I should be doing 50 rpm / cadence to hit the UK / EU limit of 15.5mph/25kmh limit if 31mph equals 100 crank cadence, and that just isn't true. Anyone disagree?

Depends on which cog of the cassette you are in at the time surely!

Personally I never want to spin at 50rpm my knees just can't take the low grind. Spin to win.

Also from real world EP801 experience, I have hit the 15.5mph UK limiter on well above 50rpm

 

[Cleggy]

Total b/s that's for a normal analogue bike with no internal motor gear reduction, not any eeb, that's why roadies can pass us so easily (in the UK) I'm doing over 110 cadence at 18mph on flat roads with (relatively tall) 36T x 10 with 29" wheels. 50kmh at 100 cadence on a EU spec eeb, no way. I call it's nonsense.

But his is no longer EU spec because he has had his derestricted hence why he CAN ride ABOVE the UK/EU speed restriction relatively easily

 

[wenna]

Total b/s that's for a normal analogue bike with no internal motor gear reduction, not any eeb, that's why roadies can pass us so easily (in the UK) I'm doing over 110 cadence at 18mph on flat roads with (relatively tall) 36T x 10 with 29" wheels. 50kmh at 100 cadence on a EU spec eeb, no way. I call it's nonsense.

@Backflip is correct.

If your cranks turn att the same speed as your chainring the calculation for speed and cadence is easy, and his calculation checks out.

If you are doing 110 cadence at 18mph on 29" wheels you should be at around 36T front x 22T rear.

For the calculations to be exakt you need to know size of both rear cog and chainring as well as the exact tire circumference. Tire circumference do vary for same size wheels depending on what tire, rim width, air pressure, your weight, temperature etc...

There are plenty of online calculators that will land you close enough and make it easy for you to do the calculations.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Ok, I'm out.

You're out why, its a good bit of little spoken about US Vs EU eebs banyer Your calculations work out except you're saying I should be doing 50 rpm / cadence to hit the UK / EU limit of 15.5mph/25kmh limit if 31mph equals 100 crank cadence, and that just isn't true. Anyone disagree?

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Ok, after thinking about this in bed this morning, my line of thought is wrong. Different internal gearing would only change the motor rpm not the cranks/ chainring rpm (but could be useful for power delivery by altering the peak torque to a higher rpm). If we owned throttle powered bikes without pedals then yes the crankshaft/ chainring could spin out of normal human cadence and no one would notice.

 

[Fielonator]

You're out why, its a good bit of little spoken about US Vs EU eebs banyer Your calculations work out except you're saying I should be doing 50 rpm / cadence to hit the UK / EU limit of 15.5mph/25kmh limit if 31mph equals 100 crank cadence, and that just isn't true. Anyone disagree?

I'll have one last try. I can explain this to you, but I can't understand it for you. Here we go.

Using the range of gears available one can ride at a constant velocity but with variable cadence. With the 10 to 52 cassette and 38t chainring I can reach 30mph without spinning out. The support from the derestricted motor means I can do this without having to put in a huge effort. If my motor was still restricted to 15.5mph I'd have to put in a big effort to ride at speeds above the limiter, regardless of cadence.

You're going to have to either accept this or not, but I'm not going to try to prove it to you. It might be worth going back to the beginning of this thread and reading all of it, or don't. Up to you.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

I'll have one last try. I can explain this to you, but I can't understand it for you. Here we go.

Using the range of gears available one can ride at a constant velocity but with variable cadence. With the 10 to 52 cassette and 38t chainring I can reach 30mph without spinning out. The support from the derestricted motor means I can do this without having to put in a huge effort. If my motor was still restricted to 15.5mph I'd have to put in a big effort to ride at speeds above the limiter, regardless of cadence.

You're going to have to either accept this or not, but I'm not going to try to prove it to you. It might be worth going back to the beginning of this thread and reading all of it, or don't. Up to you.

You're correct, my thoughts as said in my last post were wrong (in my defence, wine was involved).
I totally forgot that when I'm riding at say the 15.5mph limit on the flat I'm not on the smallest rear cog (we select a gear that matches our natural cadence at a given speed). Accept my apology and have a great New Year.

 

[wenna]

Ok, after thinking about this in bed this morning, my line of thought is wrong. Different internal gearing would only change the motor rpm not the cranks/ chainring rpm (but could be useful for power delivery by altering the peak torque to a higher rpm). If we owned throttle powered bikes without pedals then yes the crankshaft/ chainring could spin out of normal human cadence and no one would notice.

I find this calculator fast and easy to generate a table for speed/cadence for all gears.

This is for my bike and seems correct:

 

[Backflip]

is it a US drive unit ?

No, it is an EU model and was limited to an annoying max. speed of 25kph before the EMAX mod, but I think this does not matter for the tuning if it is an EU or US model.

how many month now you did the emax tuning ? error free ? what speed can you reach ?

My bike was modified by EMAX at beginning of November, so close to 2 months now, and I have ridden more than 2000km since this with a speed of mostly around 40kph without any problems or errors, completely correct values for speed and distances on the bike display and so having a lot of fun.

 

[Cleggy]

so close to 2 months now, and I have ridden more than 2000km since this

Must be great being retired, I can only dream

 

[Fielonator]

I used the etuning app, took about an hour to do with phone, job tidy. Mine is an NZ bike, so normally 30km top speed. App changes wheel size, can now comfortably do 60km. Never had a software issue. First motor at 800kms the freewheel clutch in the motor flogged out, Shimano replaced the motor on warranty even tho when logged in it came up with an alert to show the wheel diameter had been altered . With new motor I've done around there 3000kms hasn't missed a beat. Connect, reverse software to original version, pay 20€ for the unlock code, adjust wheel size, set back to original software version, go fast, happy days

View attachment 131578

You're on the ep8 system then eh?

 

[Backflip]

I used the etuning app, took about an hour to do with phone, job tidy. Mine is an NZ bike, so normally 30km top speed. App changes wheel size, can now comfortably do 60km. Never had a software issue. First motor at 800kms the freewheel clutch in the motor flogged out, Shimano replaced the motor on warranty even tho when logged in it came up with an alert to show the wheel diameter had been altered . With new motor I've done around there 3000kms hasn't missed a beat. Connect, reverse software to original version, pay 20€ for the unlock code, adjust wheel size, set back to original software version, go fast, happy days

Please don´t mix things - this forum thread is solely related to the new EP801 drive unit (see the topic "ep801-solution") from Shimano and your nice Santa Cruz bike most probably is using the somewhat older EP800 drive unit if you have done a wheel circumference mod with the E-Tuning app, because you cannot do this any more on an EP801 based bike.
Also you should mention that when decreasing the wheel size, you don´t get correct values for speed and distance on your bike display any more (at least if you have mounted an original Shimano display). However, maybe you are using the displayless EWEN100 version on your bike, I cannot see it clearly in your nice pic.
I was talking to the guys from the E-Tuning app and they definitely cannot speed up any EP801 bike in any way!
Neither can STUnlocker or EPlus do a speed up of bikes with these new drive units EP801 and EP6.
Also all external electronic boxes like Speedbox, BadAssBox and all the others who will "fake" the signal of the speed sensor and freeze at 25kph will fail and create E295 and finally E299 errors like written in this post.
Once you have gotten E299 your bike will not support any more and you have to go to the Shimano service center to unlock the drive unit again which is quite pricy and will void your warranty forever.
So, currently the only way to go to speed up any bike with the new EP801 / EP6 drive units seems throught the EMAX soft which seems not to have any downside or disadvantage at all (at least for me in the past 2 months) and does not create any errors and also shows all data perfectly on the display (no "half" speed values or "frozen" indication above 25kph). They also claim that you easily can reset the bike to factory state and so there will be no problem with any warranty issue.

At least when i have done the mod in early November I did a quite extensive and comprehensive research in the internet back then and contacted all the companies behind these possibilities and I only found one feasible solution who could do the job in a perfect way: EMAX.
Maybe it is different today, but I don´t think so.
Happy New Year

 

[Cleggy]

I used the etuning app, took about an hour to do with phone, job tidy. Mine is an NZ bike, so normally 30km top speed. App changes wheel size, can now comfortably do 60km. Never had a software issue. First motor at 800kms the freewheel clutch in the motor flogged out, Shimano replaced the motor on warranty even tho when logged in it came up with an alert to show the wheel diameter had been altered . With new motor I've done around there 3000kms hasn't missed a beat. Connect, reverse software to original version, pay 20€ for the unlock code, adjust wheel size, set back to original software version, go fast, happy days

Which EP8 motor though? Old EP8[00] or newer EP8[01]

Edit: Oops did not see Backflips and Fielonator's comment before posting mine

 

[Cleggy]

Looks like the Aussies can get it done at a bike shop

Shimano EP6 & EP801 Tune Unlock to 35km/h or 60km/h

 

[Backflip]

I love Austraaaaalia "down under", but it´s a bit far away to do an optimization of a bike (and it´s most probably quite expensive to take your bike with the plane).
But anyways - thanks for the interesting link.

 

[Tombie]

I love Austraaaaalia "down under", but it´s a bit far away to do an optimization of a bike (and it´s most probably quite expensive to take your bike with the plane).
But anyways - thanks for the interesting link.

You’re only 2 letters away (AL)

 

[Cleggy]

Can any of you with a derestricted EP801 confirm whether or not this is detectable by Shimano and Bike shops?

I'm growing increasingly frustrated with the UK limit of 15mph but my motor is still under warranty for another 19 months so very reluctant to proceed with emax

Once derestricted remotely by them can we then roll it back to standard ourselves or does that require yet another remote connection session?

If another remote connection session does that also incur another fee?

Ideally this would be a plug n play hardware solution but for some reason this seems to not be possible on the EP801

 

[Fielonator]

As far as I can remember it's all undoable by the user, and once back to normal won't be detectable by a shop or dealer. I'm sure that's what the guy told me, no idea how to do it though.

Once back to normal you'd have to pay them to fix it again, minus the cost of the license fee as that lasts for ever.

Have you been in contact with e-max? I found them really easy to deal with, they answered all my questions and explained the process well.