ep8 motor, who's going to be first to retrofit?

[jamied]

So it looks like the new ep8 motor has the "Same frame mount as DU-E8000/DU-7000", sweet! (Info here)

I wonder if it will be a straight swap out for an E8000 or if there will need to be other components changed as well.

 

[Doomanic]

Good luck with that...

 

[jimbob]

Thats a massive shame if true, although I wonder if thats just at the begining when they cant meet demand?

What would happen in a couple of years when motors fail outside of warrenty if you cant buy a replacement?

 

[jamied]

Well thats thrown a stick right through my spokes hasn't it.

@Doomanic where did you pull that info from?

 

[jimbob]

Its mentioned in the thread running in the general discussion area. Seems Rob has asked Shimano just ghis question.

A great shame if so as I was planning to do just this in a year or so.

 

[KeithR]

Article - Testing the new Shimano EP8 motor

Rumours about a new Shimano motor have been circulating for months. Now it’s finally released, the new Shimano EP8. Due to the pandemic, there was no press release event. But we were lucky enough to get hold of a motor and to communicate briefly with a guy at Shimano Public Relations. I’ll let...

www.emtbforums.com

Among others.

 

[Doomanic]

Well thats thrown a stick right through my spokes hasn't it.

@Doomanic where did you pull that info from?

Shimano EP8 launched | Here’s everything you need to know

Breaking news eMTB fans! Shimano has released its next-generation motor and it’s more powerful, lighter and more efficient. Meet the Shimano EP8. Shimano have done their best to keep the lid …

singletrackworld.com

 

[AZRickD]

I won't be retro-fitting my E8000 to EP8.

I detune my eBikes. I usually run my Eco at about 1/3rd power. Roughly half power for Trail. A bit more for Boost, which I rarely use.

If my E8000 takes a crap, I would consider it (but the wiring has to be replaced). If the STUNLocker app won't work with it, no deal.

 

[KeithR]

I won't be retro-fitting my E8000 to EP8

You can't anyway - pretty much every post above yours is about Shimano not making the new motor available for retrofit.

 

[AZRickD]

So, you’re reminding me that every post I read says something. Thanks.

 

[TheBikePilot]

I believe the same bolts etc was more for manufacturers rather than users. This way they can 'refresh' their existing offerings, although the battery on the new EP8 is a different form factor.

 

[KeithR]

So, you’re reminding me that every post I read says something. Thanks.

You wouldn't need to be told if you'd actually read them before piling in...

 

[AZRickD]

You wouldn't need to be told if you'd actually read them before piling in...

You mean, actually read the posts I actually read?

And the three reviews I read before posting here? Thanks, man. You’re a peach.

 

[Dirtnvert]

They also said they werent offering microdrive freehubs to a bunch of hub companies that now have a microdrive freehub option in their line up. Im guessing aftermarket sales has a chance of happening eventually.
As for retrofitting from existing e8000 to ep8, i saw in one of the press releases that it will be possible for some bikes if the motor isnt tilted differently than the motor was originally designed to fit. Apparently tilting the motor affects how the torque sensor responds. I suppose eventually a torque sensor could be designed for different companies bikes if theyre already tilted. I dont think my decoy is tilted so im still hoping to get an ep8, even if i have to buy a speed sensor, computer and mode selector. Otherwise decoy with new e8000 will be for sale to get a bosch gen4 equipped bike. Ep8 is even a risk as its a first year product. Ive always tried to avoid forst year products and shimano hasnt mentioned any durability design improvements apart from better heat management. Maybe it has been the heat thats killing bearings and torque sensors in the e8000 necessitating motor warrantee replacement? Shimano has been less than forthcoming on the issues

 

[jbrown15]

It's funny, I've never ridden my ebike and thought to myself "man this motor is junk I need to upgrade it"...lol
But I still switch back and forth between my Devinci AC and my Devinci carbon Troy 29er.

It's not like the EP8 is a revolutionary step up over the E8000 motor. The current Shimano motor is still pretty good, there's a list of things that I would rather upgrade before even considering the motor, but of course that's just me.

 

[Dirtnvert]

Will u say the same thing if the motor dies prematurely?

 

[jbrown15]

Will u say the same thing if the motor dies prematurely?

Were you asking me that question?

 

[KeithR]

You mean, actually read the posts I actually read?

And the three reviews I read before posting here? Thanks, man. You’re a peach.

So you reckon you did your research and then still decided to increase the sum of human knowledge by pronouncing that:

"That thing I can't do? Well I've decided I'm not going to do it..."

Riiiiight... Thanks for that valuable contribution to the discussion. We'd be lost without you.

 

[AZRickD]

You've got it backward.

I decided two weeks ago I didn't care about swapping motors -- and not for reasons you've just found out today.
Not because of any compatibility or distributor issues, but because the EP8 didn't offer me anything I cared about.

Didn't your dealer tell you anything about it before the release date?

 

[Dirtnvert]

Were you asking me that question?

Yes or anyone for that matter. Theres more than a few documented cases of the e8000 not making it to 2000km. Is that exceptable to you?

 

[jbrown15]

Yes or anyone for that matter. Theres more than a few documented cases of the e8000 not making it to 2000km. Is that exceptable to you?

I'm not a person that typically worries about "what if's" so its not really something that concerns me. You typically only hear about things on the internet when someone has a issue. You don't read about the thousands and thousands of E8000's that have zero issues right?

 

[Tymon170]

I somehow think that Shimano have missed the mark here re fitting the new engine to previous models . It makes no sense to myself, based on the choice that someone initially made in deciding to choose a Shimano engine and system for their bike purchase and then being informed that no you cannot buy this new engine and yes it is the same mounting configuration of its predecessor?? Surely they must be aware of what different bike manufactures are using and in what angle the engines are housed in the frame. I'm very happy with my E8000 but it does smack of Oh you've got that one Madam/Sir. Stupid actions that are only going to devalue the present iteration of E8000.s fitted to many, many bikes?? What does any one else make of it??. Regards Chris

 

[Dirtnvert]

I'm not a person that typically worries about "what if's" so its not really something that concerns me. You typically only hear about things on the internet when someone has a issue. You don't read about the thousands and thousands of E8000's that have zero issues right?

I didnt ask you if you worry about "what ifs". I asked you if you thought it would be acceptable if your motor died under 2000km and if you thought the motor is "still pretty good" if it prematurely dies. Maybe youre just trying to sidestep the question? The "mine works fine, ignorance is bliss" stance. Who in their right mind would invest $9000 in a bike thayt theyll get 4 months of limited use out of on a seemingly phony guarantee that they had this imaginary industry leading warrantee.
You dont read about a lot of the ones that do have problems either. You can however read of the issues with all the different motor systems and compare those numbers and figure out which system has the most problems. There's several mentions of shimano problems on the forum ,and elsewhere, and some users that have had multiple problems. In the last yeat or 2 theres been little mention of bosch problems after they made a running fix on seal issues with the gen3 a couple years ago. One ebike dealer also made note of warrantees with each motor. The shimano had failure rates far greater than bosch and the brose had failure rates far greater than the shimano. Not many yamaha failure posts. I will give brose/specialized a bit of credit as theyve been fairly up front and are working to fix it and stand behind it with additional warrantee(ill be on a wait and see with that). I like to be informed with my purchases rather than the ostrich method of purchasing. Ive been on shimano since they took market share from suntour in the 80's and figured theyd have things dialed ,and if there was a failure they have a good dealer support network. The vast dealer support network is the selling point for all the bike companies that sell bikes with shimano motors. The shimano dealer support network hasn't worked for me.. im no farther in the process than i was 2 1/2 months ago when my e8000 shit the bed

 

[jbrown15]

I didnt ask you if you worry about "what ifs". I asked you if you thought it would be acceptable if your motor died under 2000km and if you thought the motor is "still pretty good" if it prematurely dies. Maybe youre just trying to sidestep the question? The "mine works fine, ignorance is bliss" stance. Who in their right mind would invest $9000 in a bike thayt theyll get 4 months of limited use out of on a seemingly phony guarantee that they had this imaginary industry leading warrantee.
You dont read about a lot of the ones that do have problems either. You can however read of the issues with all the different motor systems and compare those numbers and figure out which system has the most problems. There's several mentions of shimano problems on the forum ,and elsewhere, and some users that have had multiple problems. In the last yeat or 2 theres been little mention of bosch problems after they made a running fix on seal issues with the gen3 a couple years ago. One ebike dealer also made note of warrantees with each motor. The shimano had failure rates far greater than bosch and the brose had failure rates far greater than the shimano. Not many yamaha failure posts. I will give brose/specialized a bit of credit as theyve been fairly up front and are working to fix it and stand behind it with additional warrantee(ill be on a wait and see with that). I like to be informed with my purchases rather than the ostrich method of purchasing. Ive been on shimano since they took market share from suntour in the 80's and figured theyd have things dialed ,and if there was a failure they have a good dealer support network. The vast dealer support network is the selling point for all the bike companies that sell bikes with shimano motors. The shimano dealer support network hasn't worked for me.. im no farther in the process than i was 2 1/2 months ago when my e8000 shit the bed

I didn't side step the question, I simply said it's not something I'm worried about. The motor has a warranty does it not? I have friends with Shimano motors with no problems. Truth be told if I didn't come on this forum I wouldn't know about any supposed "issues" with their motors because I haven't had any friends have an problems with there's and certainly not at 4 months of ownership.

When you say Shimano has far greater failure rates, could that also be from the fact that there's probably far more Shimano motors out there compared to Bosch and Brose?

I'm sorry about your situation, but I would imagine with all that's going on in the bike industry at the moment that would happen with any brand of motor. Sorry I might have missed it but I'm now assuming the motor in your bike has crapped out? How old is the motor? And bike manufacture can't help you out at all?

 

[R120]

At some point the motor is bound to be available separately, if for no other reason that people with EP8's out of warranty will need to be able to buy one.

Aside form that given Shimano are struggling to get production motors out to OEM's right now it would make no sense for them to make motors available to the public too other than to make a rod for their own back.

 

[OldGoatMTB]

Its mentioned in the thread running in the general discussion area. Seems Rob has asked Shimano just ghis question.

I think EMBN said they would address that question “later”, as well.

 

[electricbogaloo]

I think even if it's possible its probably not really financially interesting to swap out a motor if you can get a complete build for around 5k with a new battery and new everything.

Also: Why is the moderation of this forum this weird? Threads/posts are removed constantly and then reappear in different fashion?

 

[R120]

When there are too many threads on the same subject they get merged

 

[Dirtnvert]

I didn't side step the question, I simply said it's not something I'm worried about. The motor has a warranty does it not? I have friends with Shimano motors with no problems. Truth be told if I didn't come on this forum I wouldn't know about any supposed "issues" with their motors because I haven't had any friends have an problems with there's and certainly not at 4 months of ownership.

When you say Shimano has far greater failure rates, could that also be from the fact that there's probably far more Shimano motors out there compared to Bosch and Brose?

I'm sorry about your situation, but I would imagine with all that's going on in the bike industry at the moment that would happen with any brand of motor. Sorry I might have missed it but I'm now assuming the motor in your bike has crapped out? How old is the motor? And bike manufacture can't help you out at all?

There sales numbers probably wouldnt differeniate that much. Spesh sells the most ebikes as a company and they have brose. Bosch were specced on a lot of other bikes until last year when a number of companies switched to shimano. They should have stayed with bosch. Bosch seems to react to developement a bit like toyota. They made continuing little improvements to the gen 3 . That should have been a good signal for companies to stay with them, especially having industry insider knowledge on the gen4 before release which is a great motor built on the evolution learned from the gen 3 and iys needed improvemenys. Bosch equipped bikes seem to be a better value as well. Guessing they offered bike companies better terms/price. Ive now sent a few people to cube because of the bosch motor. They are super happy and keep asking how my shimano warranty is going. One guy is an ex moto trials national champ and hadnt been on a mtb for years. He bought bikes for himself and his boy and they are both terrors on 2 wheels and treat them more like moto durability than mtb durability. He smashed a display already. He had it fixed in a day. Another day he rolled in and got the new software update. Another bosch feature with the constant upgrade ethos is software upgrades.
Im trying to get warrantee and have been trying to be patient. Shimano hasnt returned calls to the shop i went to. Shop did a incorrect diagnosis. Explained everything to the shop and yt. Eventually drove 5hrs round trip to meet the canadian yt guy to show him what i have been explaining to deaf ears. Its a torque sensor but only until i physically show them how it errors out will they understand. Shimano hasnt phoned the shop back. Despite the motor being four years old and the failure rate % shoiuld be well known, you would think they would have enough warrantee replacement numbers to cover sales. Covid sales is irrelevant. Its failure % of a known quantity of motor number sales and a reasonable margin of error that should dictate warrantee stock.
Ive been patient for over 2 months(now very close to 2 1/2 months). Just got a call as i type this. Im atleast on the list now and may have some definitive answers soon. But thats all hearsay at this point and it will still take time with shipping warrantee items and stock hasnt even been confirmed. It sucks trying to be polite with a shop all the while buying stuff from them and thanking them for providing their service and reassuring them constantly that its not their issue and i have $ to pay and everytime you go in you deal with some condescending kid that doesnylt know shit from shinola and they havent heard from shimano .
After all this will i get another e8000 only to have it blow at 1700km and have to go through all thus bullshit jumping through hoops with dipshit shop kids, no return calls fom shimano and an extremely busy bike company? I would hope cycling would add a few years to my life not take 5 or 10 off it. I can get bosch fixed or warranteed, i can buy a spare and if all that fails i can get it rebuilt plus the failure rate is substantially less. The decision is ez. Id much rather have a working bike than a warrantee machine that has a couple neat features that can only be realized when it actually works. Motors are integral to an emtb. They need to be fully serviceable by the user and if not the user than locally at a lbs. That includes all sensors, bottom bracket bearing, connectors and wires. Bearings should be able to be sourced from a bearing supplier or lbs, woring should be protected and generic to facilitate replacement, and connectors should also be generic metal quick connects that can be attached to wires by the user. Home diagnostic through the app needs to happen as well. All these things are already in use in a varity of electronics. Who the hell are these companies hiring for developement? Its like theyre trying to reinvent the wheel and wheel standards are done like the dogs breakfast/end pissed off rant

 

[R120]

The new Polini is deigned to be serviceable, and by all accounts is a great motor, just one we dont hear much about