EMTB Upgrade. Amflow or EP801 ? Your opinions desperately needed.

[Astro66]

So folks. I'm at a crossroads. I am just loving the Technical Climbing that comes with an EMTB. But the one thing I hate, is when the bike stalls when you are cresting an obstacle. This is because you usually can't reach to put your feet down, because of the bike angle. And you topple over, hurting elbows, shoulders and knees, if you land on rocks. And most distressing, it quite often scratches the bike.

So I want 2 additional motor performance functions. More power, and more over run.

I have 2 options to do this.

1) Upgrade my Shimano EP600 motor to EP801. Cost AUD$1240. At 600 watts, this will give me 100 watts more power, and up to 2 metres of over run.

2) Upgrade the bike. Get the new Amflow PL Carbon with the DJI motor. Cost AUD$9400. This will give me 1000 watts, and also give me up to 2 metres of over run.

So far, the reveiws on the Amflow have been very good. But it is a very new technology. And I'd be switching to a SRAM drive with no Autoshift.

I must say, I do love the Shimano equipment. I know it really well, and I'm super confident pulling it to bits and reassembling it.

Thoughts.

Current Merida E160 700 with Di2 XT 11 speed Linkglide Transmission.

The Amflow

 

[irie]

Either AUD$1240 to upgrade your current reliable bike or AUD$9400 for an as yet unproven bike?

Hmmm, let's think about that.

For over AUD$8,000 you'd have to have a pretty serious itch to scratch ...

 

[Astro66]

Either AUD$1240 to upgrade your current reliable bike or AUD$9400 for an as yet unproven bike?

Hmmm, let's think about that.

For over AUD$8,000 you'd have to have a pretty serious itch to scratch ...

I'm meeting with a guy tonight, who wants to buy the Merida. But I do love it, with all the customisation I've done. I just know the entire transmission and electronics so well.

The capital outlay doesn't really factor. It's more the ongoing expense, and inability to do all the work myself, with the Amflow.

I am leaning towards the new motor. But the reports on the Amflow have been quite extraordinary. I guess I want to see for myself.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Tony4wd]

If money isn't an issue I'd go for the Amflow. Personally I'm waiting for the version 2 Amflow to devalue the version 1 and I might be able to buy it
The extra power and momentum will help with the steepest pinches on hills.

 

[turandot]

If money isn't an issue I'd go for the Amflow. Personally I'm waiting for the version 2 Amflow to devalue the version 1 and I might be able to buy it
The extra power and momentum will help with the steepest pinches on hills.

There are still several years to go for a version 2 of amflow, there is talk next year of an enduro version, but they are only rumors.

 

[Hugo Last]

If you have the dosh, go for the Amflow.
The 'over run' is configurable in the App, so you can adjust to your preference.
I am loving mine, but of course only time will tell have reliable it will be.

 

[Paulquattro]

Buy the Amflow
The more people that buy it the more everyone will know if its a reliable bike and if money is no object why wait .

 

[lar1337]

Tech climbing is about skill as much as power........go ride more on a bike Holliday with all that saved cash and you'll be riding steeps without crashing in no time

 

[B1rdie]

"This is because you usually can't reach to put your feet down, because of the bike angle. And you topple over, hurting elbows, shoulders and knees, if you land on rocks. And most distressing, it quite often scratches the bike."

There are many ways to fix this without the need to spend lots of cash. If you set the saddle a little lower you will reach the ground easily, but then you would need a strong core and legs, and finesse to balance your front/rear weight placing, in order to be able to clear a techy climb off the saddle. (in fact, i only consider it a technical climb if I need to be off the saddle to clear it).
First thing to do if you intend to put a feet down, on a steep climb, would be remove that thing off the top tube.
Maybe spending some money with an instructor before going in to an expensive motor upgrade or a selling bike that you are satisfied with !?!

 

[irie]

And you topple over, hurting elbows, shoulders and knees, if you land on rocks. And most distressing, it quite often scratches the bike.

If you fall of it you're gonna fall off it, whatever the bike.

 

[emtbeast]

You say you like climbing, technical climbing, well I myself would look more at a geometry of a bike, especially three points.

1. Actual Seat Tube Angle as High as possible

2. Bottom Bracket Height as high as possible

3. 29er wheels

1. I didn't ride one but IMO the Amflow's geo isn't very good for climbing because of a fairly low actual seat tube angle(kinked seat tube). This becomes a hindrance especially if you are tall rider, the seat as it rises moves backwards and so does your weight. On a steep hill your weight shifting backwards isn't a good thing. This also gets worse as you compress the rear suspension when riding.
I would look at bike that has an effective angle close to 78° and the actual angle the closer to this the better, a good starting point is cca 74°.

2. Short cranks help with pedaling clearance, but bottom bracket height is the solution for obstacle avoidance.
350mm is a good mid point where to look at.

3. 29er wheels will give you a higer bottom bracket from the get-go and more grip, because of the bigger circumference of the wheel more tire is in contact with the ground in the direction of travel.

 

[HandsomeDanNZ]

I think it's strange that the EP6 and EP801 are reportedly "virtually identical apart from casing material and therefore weight", and yet they haven't got the same version of the firmware update as each other.
Quite a few bikes have the EP6 and it seems silly that they would prevent adding overrun to the mix on this one.
Personally, I don't notice it as I don't do properly technical climbs - more XC-type stuff, which for me is a massive step up from what I was doing on my meat-bike.

I think if you can wrangle a test ride on one of your favourite routes, have a go on an Amflow and see if it meets your needs.
But ultimately, if you like your Merida - maybe do a motor swap and then you get what you think you're missing and keep the bike that you like/know/have heavily customised.

 

[Astro66]

You say you like climbing, technical climbing, well I myself would look more at a geometry of a bike, especially three points.

Some of the guys I ride with are on analogue bikes, and are just brilliant climbers. But on really steep climbs, they just don't have the energy and momentum to clear some of the climb. So unless you can track stand. You have to keep moving forward.

One of the guys is from a trials background, and can track stand and bounce his bike through the places where he cannot achieve enough momentum to just ride through. But this requires massive amounts of stamina.

This is currently the only places where I out climb him now on my EMTB. Because I can just keep rolling over the obstacle. I just use the torque of the motor to lift the front wheel, then power over it.

I still want a bike I can descend well on. So I need a compromise of geometry. That's why I want the extra power and over run to assist in climbing. Having an EMTB with geometry specifically designed for climbing, means I'll be more compromised going downhill.

And falling downhill, is far more dangerous than falling uphill. So I want the geometry that will do downhill well. And then more motor power, torque and over run, to compensate in the climbing.

 

[Astro66]

First thing to do if you intend to put a feet down, on a steep climb, would be remove that thing off the top tube.

That is just a battery that quad locks on. I only use it when I'm doing long XC rides to keep my maps visible on the phone for many hours. I take it off when going into technical areas.

And the figure below, shows the problem, when you stall, climbing an obstacle. The distance to ground from the top tube becomes longer than your legs. So you either roll back, which usually ends in a fall. Or you hold your brakes and fall from here.

 

[Astro66]

If you fall of it you're gonna fall off it, whatever the bike.

Unless the bike powers you over the obstacle, so you don't stall.

I'm only falling when I stall the bike, on obstacles where I cannot get my feet down. So currently I don't take on certain climbs, that I have stalled on. That's why I want more power, and more over run.

 

[emtbeast]

Some of the guys I ride with are on analogue bikes, and are just brilliant climbers. But on really steep climbs, they just don't have the energy and momentum to clear some of the climb. So unless you can track stand. You have to keep moving forward.

One of the guys is from a trials background, and can track stand and bounce his bike through the places where he cannot achieve enough momentum to just ride through. But this requires massive amounts of stamina.

This is currently the only places where I out climb him now on my EMTB. Because I can just keep rolling over the obstacle. I just use the torque of the motor to lift the front wheel, then power over it.

I still want a bike I can descend well on. So I need a compromise of geometry. That's why I want the extra power and over run to assist in climbing. Having an EMTB with geometry specifically designed for climbing, means I'll be more compromised going downhill.

And falling downhill, is far more dangerous than falling uphill. So I want the geometry that will do downhill well. And then more motor power, torque and over run, to compensate in the climbing.

I understand, well I never understood track standing and going uphill on a bicycle that way...I mean it defies the purpose of if, the 》Bicycle《. But OK, back to geometry, you don't need to make a compromise, the geo you need is already out there. The Enduro Category bikes is what you are looking for

 

[Astro66]

The Enduro Category bikes is what you are looking for

My current bike is an Enduro. It is perfect. I just want more power and over run. Hence this thread.

I starting to think I need to do both. Upgrade my motor and buy the Amflow. I guess I could sell my carbon Marin with the Bafang motor. I always keep a spare EMTB so I can ride, when I'm waiting for parts. It also helps to lend it to mates, who are considering an EMTB.

But the wife is saying, no more new bikes unless I make space by selling one.

 

[emtbeast]

My current bike is an Enduro. It is perfect. I just want more power and over run. Hence this thread.

I starting to think I need to do both. Upgrade my motor and buy the Amflow. I guess I could sell my carbon Marin with the Bafang motor. I always keep a spare EMTB so I can ride, when I'm waiting for parts. It also helps to lend it to mates, who are considering an EMTB.

But the wife is saying, no more new bikes unless I make space by selling one.

Well at the end It's your choice, my opinion is that I would not buy the Amflow as it's a trail bike by the geo and so it's actually a compromise for u.

I am sorry to say, but your Merida looking at the angles is not in the Enduro Category...more crossing to the Trail Category.

 

[Astro66]

I am sorry to say, but your Merida looking at the angles is not in the Enduro Category...more crossing to the Trail Category.

Merida class it Category 4 and for Enduro use. I've got to trust them.

eONE-SIXTY 700 - MERIDA BIKES

eONE-SIXTY 700

www.merida-bikes.com

 

[emtbeast]

Merida class it Category 4 and for Enduro use. I've got to trust them.

View attachment 153858

eONE-SIXTY 700 - MERIDA BIKES

eONE-SIXTY 700

www.merida-bikes.com

I am not talking about classification or not being made for enduro use, I am saying that the geo angles of your bike don't fit into the Enduro Category....in todays standards they totally scream Trail bike.
Just try climbing on an emtb that has a seat tube angle of 77°+ and decending with one that has a fork angle 64°- and you will know what I mean by enduro geo.
No offense.

 

[B1rdie]

Unless the bike powers you over the obstacle, so you don't stall.

I'm only falling when I stall the bike, on obstacles where I cannot get my feet down. So currently I don't take on certain climbs, that I have stalled on. That's why I want more power, and more over run.

With the seat post down, its possible to swing a leg over the rear wheel and dismount to a side of the bike. I have not met yet an obstacle that could not be cleared because of lack of torque or over run, actually, many technical climbs are easier to clear with less assistance. Once you get confident that stalling is not going to hurt, because you enhanced dismounting skills, than the mind will be free to focus on the skills that are required for clearing: balance, momentum, traction control, power delivery.

 

[irie]

With the seat post down, its possible to swing a leg over the rear wheel and dismount to a side of the bike. I have not met yet an obstacle that could not be cleared because of lack of torque or over run, actually, many technical climbs are easier to clear with less assistance. Once you get confident that stalling is not going to hurt, because you enhanced dismounting skills, than the mind will be free to focus on the skills that are required for clearing: balance, momentum, traction control, power delivery.

Agree. If with the seat post down you can't get your feet flat on the ground with your knees a bit bent then change the dropper post for one that will drop lower.