Ebike - Rider interface innovations

[blueglide]

Just remember that you generally only hear about the "outliers" on forums like this. The vast majority of eMTBs are rock solid and reliable.

Fair point. While I do appreciate advances in technology. I can only appreciate it if it works...works well...and adds to the overall enjoyment of the experience. Too often tech is added to 'one up' the competition or our incessant need for more stuff and its rushed to market complete with faults. Unlike our cars which are now motorized computers which I can no longer service without specialized training, tools, and computers, I can still service my bike for the most part. I would like to see user serviceable ebike systems that are simple to work on or replace parts if needed. Then I can further complicate the system if I choose. I prefer not to have to worry about an overly complicated system several miles from nowhere when it decides to fail!

 

[RickBullotta]

Fair point. While I do appreciate advances in technology. I can only appreciate it if it works...works well...and adds to the overall enjoyment of the experience. Too often tech is added to 'one up' the competition or our incessant need for more stuff and its rushed to market complete with faults. Unlike our cars which are now motorized computers which I can no longer service without specialized training, tools, and computers, I can still service my bike for the most part. I would like to see user serviceable ebike systems that are simple to work on or replace parts if needed. Then I can further complicate the system if I choose. I prefer not to have to worry about an overly complicated system several miles from nowhere when it decides to fail!

100% with you. Except that unfortunately, eMTBs have more or less gotten to the same point as cars, requiring specialized or "dealer only" tools. I took great satisfaction in changing the oil and filter in my daughter's Jeep yesterday. ;-)

 

[blueglide]

100% with you. Except that unfortunately, eMTBs have more or less gotten to the same point as cars, requiring specialized or "dealer only" tools. I took great satisfaction in changing the oil and filter in my daughter's Jeep yesterday. ;-)

I'm afraid you may be right. I was forced to find and buy a Shimano PCE02 interface to unbrick my bike after a failed Bluetooth firmware update using my phone. The PC interface device was unobtainable here in the States and I ended up getting it from Italy. Many dealers here don't have them yet. Sad. I miss the days when I did my own auto service and could tune an engine or adjust a carburetor.

 

[jsharpe]

Even cooler will be when the bike itself is an "open platform" for all of this type of innovation. Safety radar, autobraking, audio systems, dynamic analysis of cornering and jumping with real time virtual coaching, comfort systems (heat/cool), all kinds of cool stuff become possible!

Unfortunately Specialized went the other way and has now locked out 3rd party integration (e.g. BLEvo) with their new TCU.

 

[RickBullotta]

Unfortunately Specialized went the other way and has now locked out 3rd party integration (e.g. BLEvo) with their new TCU.

Saw that. I think that's a poor choice overall - I can understand wanting to lock out derestriction and modification of other parameters that could bring legal or reliability issues, but things like mode switching, telemetry/status information (speed, cadence, assist, battery level), setting assist profiles, wheel diameter, and so on should be on an open protocol.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

100% with you. Except that unfortunately, eMTBs have more or less gotten to the same point as cars, requiring specialized or "dealer only" tools. I took great satisfaction in changing the oil and filter in my daughter's Jeep yesterday. ;-)

Respect @RickBullotta.
Theirs no better satisfaction than to build/fix something with your own two hands ??

 

[RickBullotta]

Respect @RickBullotta.
Theirs no better satisfaction than to build/fix something with your own two hands ??

Equally satisfying when you can *fix* something rather than discarding and replacing it - which is the norm these days.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

If you look at city commuter e-bikes they are becoming tech laden. I presume the appeal is for a much broader market, and the bikes don’t spend much time crashing to the ground, unlike emtb’s, which crash all the time, and break

True that @Tubby G.
And I appreciate that a display/controller is the simpler way to get the best out of an ebike. But I've always thought that an extra cable protruding from the bars makes it a point of vulnerability.
I know someone did mention having a display unit which was completely wireless which sounded like a good idea and even went as far as to use the Sram AXS as an example.
Who knows, maybe it'll happen.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Equally satisfying when you can *fix* something rather than discarding and replacing it - which is the norm these days.

Amen to that.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Amazon get slapped with a big fine as they couldn't demonstrate that their products couldn't be fixed and instead, ended up to cause more environmental waste?

I could be wrong though!

 

[smtkelly]

wireless connections
Offering of sizes from minimalist to Kitt Dash
Integrated into the shifters or dropper
3rd party skins for the GUI or the option for users to pick and choose what goes where.
Security - I have mixed feelings over immobilisers/bricking but I think they are needed perhaps make them a toggle option.
Becon SOS - I think the trail forks app has that also could be useful to locate a stolen bike.

 

[Gary]

Totally agree with there being little need for a big display on an Ebike. Haven't used a display for a few years (Shimano motor)

But.. And I mean this in the nicest way... Just ride your bike and stop worrying /overthinking it.
The display rarely ever detracts or adds to the experience

 

[flash]

Try riding in areas where there is no signal ( wifi , bluetooth or whatever else )..it might change your mind ..

And exactly where, besides underwater, do you think we'll be in an area where an encrypted wireless network (SRAMs description of AXS) won't have a signal between the motor and a controller on the bars? It's only a 1 meter gap between the bars and the motor for the signal to travel.

What a bizarre statement. It's not like technology like AXS requires access to the internet or a cell signal to operate. And yes, I have ridden an AXS bike outside areas with wifi or mobile service. The tech exists and has been proven already.

Gordon

 

[The Hodge]

And exactly where, besides underwater, do you think we'll be in an area where an encrypted wireless network (SRAMs description of AXS) won't have a signal between the motor and a controller on the bars? It's only a 1 meter gap between the bars and the motor for the signal to travel.

What a bizarre statement. It's not like technology like AXS requires access to the internet or a cell signal to operate. And yes, I have ridden an AXS bike outside areas with wifi or mobile service. The tech exists and has been proven already.

Gordon

Good for you..hope you enjoyed the experience ..nothing really " bizarre " about my statement at all ..as my understanding of " wireless " was that it relied on a mobile signal ...other than that I've not a clue about AXS..and quite frankly couldnt give a shit as Im very firmly in the " less is best" camp while riding my bike ..and dont really want to stop anywhere to play with a display ..
( besides which Im too busy taking pics when stopped ?)

 

[Waynemarlow]

True that @Tubby G.
And I appreciate that a display/controller is the simpler way to get the best out of an ebike. But I've always thought that an extra cable protruding from the bars makes it a point of vulnerability.
I know someone did mention having a display unit which was completely wireless which sounded like a good idea and even went as far as to use the Sram AXS as an example.
Who knows, maybe it'll happen.

Ummm you may want to look at the TSDZ2 forum on EndlessSphere where indeed a group of savvy programmers have done just that. Fully wireless with no display, phone or Garmin as display and wireless keypad. General ending up point was wired keypad ( less bulk with least cost ) and Garmin display with your phone as the main unit for settings and upgrades of firmware to the motor.

TSDZ2 EBike wireless standard (like Specialized Turbo Levo) - OpenSource

:warn: See the project page for the most updated information: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wireless --- The inspiration for this project is the famous Specialized Turbo Levo Ebike. There is a standard for a wireless ebike: ANT+ Light Electric Vehicle (LEV). As a...

endless-sphere.com

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Ummm you may want to look at the TSDZ2 forum on EndlessSphere where indeed a group of savvy programmers have done just that. Fully wireless with no display, phone or Garmin as display and wireless keypad. General ending up point was wired keypad ( less bulk with least cost ) and Garmin display with your phone as the main unit for settings and upgrades of firmware to the motor.

TSDZ2 EBike wireless standard (like Specialized Turbo Levo) - OpenSource

:warn: See the project page for the most updated information: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wireless --- The inspiration for this project is the famous Specialized Turbo Levo Ebike. There is a standard for a wireless ebike: ANT+ Light Electric Vehicle (LEV). As a...

endless-sphere.com

I'm aware of third party developers like Eggrider and such, who have created bluetooth displays (provided that the motor has a bluetooth module).

9/10 these add-on displays usually have bugs which developers spend the best part of a year fine tuning because they rushed the initial testing period and went straight to production.

 

[Nvigr8]

Personally I would love to have voice control for changing modes. Be nice for shifting gears as well. Shoot, having an AI inside would be great altogether! Talk to your bike to find out what maintenance is due, last ride stats, diagnose problems, etc. NOT Alexa though.

 

[Calsun]

The display is designed for the operation of the bike and can operate with a fraction of the power needed to power a smartphone. Who should need to spend $700 for a smartphone to be able to use their e-bike? There is also far more control over the controller shipping with the bike than over a bunch of third party phone apps.

I have seen the efforts to make cars smarter and they all have serious problems with the user interface. Even 40 years after the GUI was first developed most programmers and their managers are clueless. I can't even get a consistent user interface with the various streaming media sources with navigation done by idiots who are novice programmers.

 

[Janc]

I did hear a rumour that goggles/glasses were being developed which when tapped or when a button was pressed near the hinge, it would show data. I want to say that it was from Garmin but I could be wrong.
Can't this technology be implemented for ebikes to ditch the displays (or something along those lines)?

in this beautiful British summer my clear eyewear are so wet with rain, steamed up and splashed with trail muck I've gone back to squinting and lots of blinking to see where I'm going and miss the trail obstacles. Until I have A/C, demister and wipers, protective eyewear still has it's limitations without adding HUD to it.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

in this beautiful British summer my clear eyewear are so wet with rain, steamed up and splashed with trail much I've gone back to squinting and lots of blinking to see where I'm going and miss the trail obstacles. Until I have A/C, demister and wipers, protective eyewear still has it's limitations without adding HUD to it.

Amen their!!!
I haven't found a decent anti-drug spray to keep my goggles clear in the wet or dry ?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Oh well, looks like I'm using my Kenevo without a remote

Gotta say, I'm actually looking forward to this. Granted, no walk mode. But I rarely use walk mode.

If anything, it's one less point of vulnerability for concern.

This IS NOT me bashing on Specialized. If anything, I commend them because they must have realized that things like this can happen. Besides if push comes to shove, I can get another one.

Nevertheless, I finally have a good excuse to tinker with Mission Control and just use trail mode.

Viva-la-'no cablê!!!'

 

[Waynemarlow]

Oh well, looks like I'm using my Kenevo without a remote

Gotta say, I'm actually looking forward to this. Granted, no walk mode. But I rarely use walk mode.

If anything, it's one less point of vulnerability for concern.

This IS NOT me bashing on Specialized. If anything, I commend them because they must have realized that things like this can happen. Besides if push comes to shove, I can get another one.

Easily reuseable, double sided bumper tape, the stuff that’s quite thick and used for vehicle mouldings. Stick it on your bar at the right place, peel part of the peel tape back at 45 degrees until the peel tape is just over the edge of the main tape, open up the crack on the unit with your fingers or turned screwdriver, slip it over the tape, position and then release. If you dont press to hard you can get another go at getting the position right, now pull the peel tape all the way around, pressure the band all the way around.

As a tip, if you over tighten the band in your nice warm workshop, first time you are out in the real cold, you run the risk of the contraction of the plastic being enough to break the band, don’t ask me how I know.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Easily reuseable, double sided bumper tape, the stuff that’s quite thick and used for vehicle mouldings. Stick it on your bar at the right place, peel part of the peel tape back at 45 degrees until the peel tape is just over the edge of the main tape, open up the crack on the unit with your fingers or turned screwdriver, slip it over the tape, position and then release. If you dont press to hard you can get another go at getting the position right, now pull the peel tape all the way around, pressure the band all the way around.

As a tip, if you over tighten the band in your nice warm workshop, first time you are out in the real cold, you run the risk of the contraction of the plastic being enough to break the band, don’t ask me how I know.

Appreciate the advice @Waynemarlow, but the minus button no longer works .
But no biggie, I've got a new one so I'll install it when I'm ready.
Gotta be honest, I kinda like the look of one less cable.
If only I could do something about this Hornets nest

 

[Banktramp]

Oh well, looks like I'm using my Kenevo without a remote

Gotta say, I'm actually looking forward to this. Granted, no walk mode. But I rarely use walk mode.

If anything, it's one less point of vulnerability for concern.

This IS NOT me bashing on Specialized. If anything, I commend them because they must have realized that things like this can happen. Besides if push comes to shove, I can get another one.

Nevertheless, I finally have a good excuse to tinker with Mission Control and just use trail mode.

Viva-la-'no cablê!!!'

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Neeko, I work with a large company in birmingham who makes Chelsea tracktors, JLR

I can get the very sticky adhesive tape the stick the badges on with, I recon if you cut it to size and apply it internally it with hold it firm.

Let me know if you want some.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Neeko, I work with a large company in birmingham who makes Chelsea tracktors, JLR

I can get the very sticky adhesive tape the stick the badges on with, I recon if you cut it to size and apply it internally it with hold it firm.

Let me know if you want some.

I'll keep that option open @Banktramp.
Let me fix the minus button first before fixing the plastic.
I predict that dirt has gone in between the button and the switch which prevents minus from being activated.
It wouldn't be the first ebike remote button I've fixed (no offence bafang).
Appreciate the help and we must meet up soon

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

This display is probably (in my opinion), is the best EMTB display which uses the Bafang protocol wire loom.
I'll dive into the details in an upcoming video. The good, the bad and the nerdy, the durability, the functionality, the reliability and the rider interface which doesn't take your eyes off the trail.
And yes to all you M500/M600 emtb riders, it is retrofittable to those motors as well (more on that in the upcoming vid)

 

[Gyre]

This display is probably (in my opinion), is the best EMTB display which uses the Bafang protocol wire loom.
I'll dive into the details in an upcoming video. The good, the bad and the nerdy, the durability, the functionality, the reliability and the rider interface which doesn't take your eyes off the trail.

That is seriously cool. it is so funny to see Bafang make a nice looking UI where Bosch and some others seem to be forever stuck between an amateur radio transciever from 20 years ago and a Casio LCD watch from 40 years ago. I hope they get more OEM orders out of this.

Could you drop a photo of the whole handlebar with the Bafang display? I'm curious to get a more accurate feel about how they drew the line on size.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

That is seriously cool. it is so funny to see Bafang make a nice looking UI where Bosch and some others seem to be forever stuck between an amateur radio transciever from 20 years ago and a Casio LCD watch from 40 years ago. I hope they get more OEM orders out of this.

Could you drop a photo of the whole handlebar with the Bafang display? I'm curious to get a more accurate feel about how they drew the line on size.

Bare with me @Gyre.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Ok, so the test bike I've tried the display on is the hardtail emtb with the Bafang Ultra M620 motor (makes sense using a hardtail in the autumn and winter months).

Apologies for the lack of an elegant picture. The bike is currently charging in my office.
Anywho, the display has literally transformed how I can run my lever and dropper remote as the display band does not take up much space. Essentially, you can opt to run your lever more in-board (or outboard) on your handlebars and comfortably run 800mm+ wide handlebars with the fear of a cable pulling apart or snapping.

Naturally, depending on whether you use a Sram Matchmaker or Shimano I-spec or Magura clamp system, you can play around with cockpit position. In addition, this display has eliminated one less cable.

Although, I'll be tidying up the front over the next couple of days .
Incidentally as I'm no longer running a center mounted display, I can finally invest in a decent stem and show it off

But like I said @Gyre, I'll go into detail about the display in the upcoming vid

 

[Ford Prefect]

Just remember that you generally only hear about the "outliers" on forums like this. The vast majority of eMTBs are rock solid and reliable.

Now hold on, based on what I've seen of sales numbers, relative to ridership numbers, the majority of ebikes & bikes don't get ridden much.

I'm hoping the rise of functional ebikes will help change that...

 

[Ford Prefect]

I would prefer that motor makers focus on making good ebike drivetrains, & stick to non-proprietary protocols, for displays & controls. Let component manufacturers invent the nifty displays & control schemes!

The "slow" refresh rate of UART communication is a bit scapegoated (particularly where uncalibrated torque sensors were in use), & I'd go so far as to say:

Screw CANBus lockdowns; controllers using straightforward UART signalling, are where the wide open possibilities lay.

I don't want to be limited to Bosch or Bafang controllers & displays, any more than I'd want to be limited to one brand of cassette, or fork.

The motor controller itself doesn't have need of much more communication capability than the UART (or CANBus if they were unlocked) already has... I'm a bit surprised we haven't seen more diverse aftermarket displays, controls, & even sensors.

I've seen a battery display in the frame. A bit low, & neither percentile nor voltage displayed, but I like it for bikes where the battery isn't in line of sight.

That's the tip of the iceberg though:
...