Dji avinox

[DirkWisely]

I don't think I'd want to "jump the gun" and get a 6+k bike from Alibaba before any ecosystem for support/maintenance has developed.

I'd also need a rock solid guarantee as far as having an intact bike arrive on my doorstep before I'd risk that much money.

 

[TimC7]

How much elevation?

On a longer ride typically 1200m - 1500m but not sure how relevant that is without knowing battery size or AUW . . would be a lot less on my analogue bike, and probably more on a lighter Amflow with 800Wh battery.

 

[Doomanic]

IME, elevation has far more impact on range than distance traveled. I normally do 1000-1100m of winch and plummet that typically covers 30km and pretty much depletes 625Wh battery in the Rail in EMTB or the 480Wh battery in the KSL in Turbo.
If I turbo to work on the Rail I can get well over 100km out of the battery but it's probably less than 100m elevation in that distance.

 

[TimC7]

IME, elevation has far more impact on range than distance traveled. I normally do 1000-1100m of winch and plummet that typically covers 30km and pretty much depletes 625Wh battery in the Rail in EMTB or the 480Wh battery in the KSL in Turbo.
If I turbo to work on the Rail I can get well over 100km out of the battery but it's probably less than 100m elevation in that distance.

Elevation and AUW - heavier pals with bigger batteries get very similar numbers . . I'd probably go for the 600Wh if buying the Amflow as that would be enough plus losing a kg is bonus.

 

[zerofunds]

 

[zerofunds]

 

[xtraman122]

I feel like with the amount of hype and game-changing talk we’re having about this motor these guys are destined to have some tragic flaw come out with it. I can see it now, some storyline about how 50% of these things had major mechanical failure after 3 months of use or something. The hype is just next level.

 

[zerofunds]

I'm not sure you know who DJi is lol, maybe Google them

 

[xtraman122]

I'm not sure you know who DJi is lol, maybe Google them

I’m well aware, and just saying this in jest mostly.

 

[Jazzii]

Hello, I would like to be sure: Amflow and Amflow Pro are the same in terms of frame, battery, motor, display. Right? Thanks for answer!

 

[Astro66]

Hello, I would like to be sure: Amflow and Amflow Pro are the same in terms of frame, battery, motor, display. Right? Thanks for answer!

frame, Yes
battery, No
motor, Yes
display. Yes

Amflow PL Carbon has 800Wh battery only.

Amflow PL Carbon Pro has choice of 800Wh or 600Wh

 

[Jazzii]

frame, Yes
battery, No
motor, Yes
display. Yes

Amflow PL Carbon has 800Wh battery only.

Amflow PL Carbon Pro has choice of 800Wh or 600Wh

thanks!

 

[Mikerb]

I feel like with the amount of hype and game-changing talk we’re having about this motor these guys are destined to have some tragic flaw come out with it. I can see it now, some storyline about how 50% of these things had major mechanical failure after 3 months of use or something. The hype is just next level.

not sure there is that much scope for innovation in terms of the mechanical design of the motor given how long established brands have produced them both in Ebikes and host of automotive applications. Where are the torque and cadence sensors?? How are the electronics integrated in that design ( PCB etc)? At the end of the day it is usually the firmware that determines how the motor performs in real world riding conditions......probably the one area it took years for the competition to catch up with Specialized. Personally I would have greater confidence in a manufacturer like ZF for a new motor product and an existing mtb brand for a bike fitted with the new motor.

 

[DirkWisely]

not sure there is that much scope for innovation in terms of the mechanical design of the motor given how long established brands have produced them both in Ebikes and host of automotive applications. Where are the torque and cadence sensors?? How are the electronics integrated in that design ( PCB etc)? At the end of the day it is usually the firmware that determines how the motor performs in real world riding conditions......probably the one area it took years for the competition to catch up with Specialized. Personally I would have greater confidence in a manufacturer like ZF for a new motor product and an existing mtb brand for a bike fitted with the new motor.

Seems like there is a ton of diversity in how the motors are laid out and how they solve the various issues that need solving for the ebike application.

 

[whitymon]

not sure there is that much scope for innovation in terms of the mechanical design of the motor given how long established brands have produced them both in Ebikes and host of automotive applications. Where are the torque and cadence sensors?? How are the electronics integrated in that design ( PCB etc)? At the end of the day it is usually the firmware that determines how the motor performs in real world riding conditions......probably the one area it took years for the competition to catch up with Specialized. Personally I would have greater confidence in a manufacturer like ZF for a new motor product and an existing mtb brand for a bike fitted with the new motor.

If you look closely, the internal design are really different from one motor to another hence their different reliability. So no it also depends on how you built it but true, firmware can detect/decide but this is not gonna create more torque.

In industry, you do not need great innovation from one year to another unless there is a competitor on the market that start doing crazy stuff.

Even if you could have tons of breakthrough it is better to keep them and pushing them out one by one. If there is not tons of competition, there is always a gentle agreement let's keep things as they were.

It always has been like this - new player change the deal, old players adapt and sometimes you found them surprisingly pretty fast reaching the gap like if they were also having it in their warehouse. Sometimes old players were sleeping and they go out of commission too.

Remember that innovation cost a lot of money if brand can skip this part they will do it forever.

 

[Mikerb]

My point is that everyone is restricted to. 250w nominal and it is no coincidence that the main motor brands have all settled on 85/90 nm and even then some struggle with overheating in hotter climates on long climbs. The biggest single problem with all motors however is damage done to bearings by water ingress over time. An enclosed metal structure with a heat source enclosed within it will suffer condensation even if a solution is found to prevent water ingress through the crank seals. Resolving that issue is the innovation needed. I see no need for more power given the limited options a mtb offers to control that power and maintain grip.

 

[xtraman122]

My point is that everyone is restricted to. 250w nominal and it is no coincidence that the main motor brands have all settled on 85/90 nm and even then some struggle with overheating in hotter climates on long climbs. The biggest single problem with all motors however is damage done to bearings by water ingress over time. An enclosed metal structure with a heat source enclosed within it will suffer condensation even if a solution is found to prevent water ingress through the crank seals. Resolving that issue is the innovation needed. I see no need for more power given the limited options a mtb offers to control that power and maintain grip.

The 250w watt thing is just in Europe though, and even there it seems many brands still sell just fine going well beyond as long as it’s not used on public roads. .

 

[whitymon]

My point is that everyone is restricted to. 250w nominal and it is no coincidence that the main motor brands have all settled on 85/90 nm and even then some struggle with overheating in hotter climates on long climbs. The biggest single problem with all motors however is damage done to bearings by water ingress over time. An enclosed metal structure with a heat source enclosed within it will suffer condensation even if a solution is found to prevent water ingress through the crank seals. Resolving that issue is the innovation needed. I see no need for more power given the limited options a mtb offers to control that power and maintain grip.

Yeah, I was recently bash by people saying that. "You know it is a mtb, it is watter dumb dumb".

Honestly, I do not think we need tons of power, I think we all crave more on efficiency, I do not need a rocket just something that can help me sufficiently and long enough. I still find that 2000m elevation on some batteries is fairly low.

 

[Binhill1]

Sounds too good to be true. More power more crashes for some folk and more wear and tear on drive train. We will know soon enough folk queuing up to buy these.

 

[Mikerb]

The 250w watt thing is just in Europe though, and even there it seems many brands still sell just fine going well beyond as long as it’s not used on public roads. .

I know the situation in the Us is rather more complex than for example in member states of the EU (not all countries in Europe are in the EU).........because there is a mix of Federal and State legislation. That leads to as many problems as it solves since whilst you have the Class 1 regulation which is essentially the same as the "Pedelec" regulation in the EU you also have Classes 2 and 3.............that leads to ALL ebikes, even the Class 1 bikes being prevented from using some "mtb" venues/trails, in some states. If you do a check you will find restrictions on the use of Ebikes in most countries. Some follow most of the "pedelec" regulations ( UK, Australia/New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland etc) some in Asia are even more restrictive.

To be clear in those countries following the "pedelec" regulations a Pedelec is classed as a bicycle and therefore allowed anywhere a normal bicycle is allowed. Ebikes not following the pedelec regulations in the UK ( and many other countries) are mopeds not bicycles.........and all the regulations that apply to Mopeds apply to them........registration, insurance, type approval, lights, horn, wearing of helmet. They can only be ridden on public roads or private land with no public access.
At the end of the day, on this forum we are mainly talking about EMTBs designed and supplied by Specialized, Giant, Trek, Whyte, Orbea , YT, SantaCruz etc. Their products are Pedelecs/Class 1 bikes a ble to be sold for MTB in the majority of the markets they serve, with the maximum assisted speed the only variable ( 20kph/25kph being the main variations)

The DJI/Amflow is also a Pedelec/Class 1.

 

[xtraman122]

I know the situation in the Us is rather more complex than for example in member states of the EU (not all countries in Europe are in the EU).........because there is a mix of Federal and State legislation. That leads to as many problems as it solves since whilst you have the Class 1 regulation which is essentially the same as the "Pedelec" regulation in the EU you also have Classes 2 and 3.............that leads to ALL ebikes, even the Class 1 bikes being prevented from using some "mtb" venues/trails, in some states. If you do a check you will find restrictions on the use of Ebikes in most countries. Some follow most of the "pedelec" regulations ( UK, Australia/New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland etc) some in Asia are even more restrictive.

To be clear in those countries following the "pedelec" regulations a Pedelec is classed as a bicycle and therefore allowed anywhere a normal bicycle is allowed. Ebikes not following the pedelec regulations in the UK ( and many other countries) are mopeds not bicycles.........and all the regulations that apply to Mopeds apply to them........registration, insurance, type approval, lights, horn, wearing of helmet. They can only be ridden on public roads or private land with no public access.
At the end of the day, on this forum we are mainly talking about EMTBs designed and supplied by Specialized, Giant, Trek, Whyte, Orbea , YT, SantaCruz etc. Their products are Pedelecs/Class 1 bikes a ble to be sold for MTB in the majority of the markets they serve, with the maximum assisted speed the only variable ( 20kph/25kph being the main variations)

The DJI/Amflow is also a Pedelec/Class 1.

We seem to be way more relaxed with the enforcement in the US though. Like I’ve heard of people afraid of actually getting their bikes tested for power output and ticketed as a result, which I can say would almost never happen here in the states. No police force would even bother to buy the equipment.

Our rules are definitely weird around the different classes, although as long you’re riding safely and responsibly, almost nobody will ever bother you, whereas I’ve heard of pretty strict enforcement in some areas of Europe (Yes, I know not all European countries are EU members). We also don’t really have the concept of requiring insurance in any way as a bike rider. Even for mopeds in most states. That really only comes into play when dealing with motorcycles and cars.

 

[xtraman122]

I bought a few surron light bees and ultra bees from this company before, looks like they're shipping amflow to USA now.. both bikes took about 2 months to arrive. they are also on alibaba as double spring machinery.

DJI Amflow PL Carbon Pro (800Wh) - High-end Long Range

Power to the Summit The AMFLOW PL electric mountain bike boasts a peak power of 850 watts in an ultra-lightweight design, weighing just 19.2 kg (600Wh version, Medium size). This revolutionary eMTB combines power, range, lightness, and smart features, making it perfect for trail enthusiasts...

ronhack.com

I remember that double spring name from when I would lurk on the Surron sub on Reddit, they were definitely one of the most reliable distributors for those.

 

[Bengy22]

I remember that double spring name from when I would lurk on the Surron sub on Reddit, they were definitely one of the most reliable distributors for those.

Same here haha

 

[Pi80]

@Rob Rides EMTB csn you estimate if a shock like X2 or Vivid Ultimate will fit inside the frame?

 

[Suns_PSD]

Here is my unpopular opinion.

It would be insane for any other manufacturer to buy a DJI motor system from a competitor bike company. They (DJI/ Amflow) could send you the ones that did poorly on the test stand (Cummins does this with turbos they sell to other manufacturers), they could raise prices or just quit selling them after a brand made molds. They could, and definitely would, just copy your frame and throw it up on Alibaba if it was outselling the Amflow. The US could ban the motor system entirely. These are simply too many risks for a major company to take, imo.

The 'primary' manufacturers should stick to the well established e-motor brands that are not in the bike business from a company that maintains a non-adverserial position with the Western Liberal Democracies.

The battery density of the DJI, while good, is where Orbea, Bosch & soon Fazua are already at as well, and i assure you they are all continuing to develop their next generation motors. Fazua already hinted it to me in an e-mail when I was asking about updates.

It's still a bike, the most powerful motor and certainly the fanciest display screen, are not the priorities for 'bike' riding with your buddies.

 

[sethimus]

Here is my unpopular opinion.

It would be insane for any other manufacturer to buy a DJI motor system from a competitor bike company. They (DJI/ Amflow) could send you the ones that did poorly on the test stand (Cummins does this with turbos they sell to other manufacturers), they could raise prices or just quit selling them after a brand made molds. They could, and definitely would, just copy your frame and throw it up on Alibaba if it was outselling the Amflow. The US could ban the motor system entirely. These are simply too many risks for a major company to take, imo.

The 'primary' manufacturers should stick to the well established e-motor brands that are not in the bike business from a company that maintains a non-adverserial position with the Western Liberal Democracies.

The battery density of the DJI, while good, is where Orbea, Bosch & soon Fazua are already at as well, and i assure you they are all continuing to develop their next generation motors. Fazua already hinted it to me in an e-mail when I was asking about updates.

It's still a bike, the most powerful motor and certainly the fanciest display screen, are not the priorities for 'bike' riding with your buddies.

tell me you are american without telling me you are american

 

[Rando_12345]

Yamaha also make their own bikes as well as supplying motors to Giant and Haibike.

DJI have been very clear they want to be a motor supplier, that is why amflow was created/branded. They probably did the maths that running a bike brand to sell thousands of ebikes is a lot more work and risk than supplying e.g. spesh or giant with hundreds of thousands of motors.

 

[TimC7]

And when everyone else commits to using their motor they'll launch the DJI MGU belt-drive Amflow . .

 

[xtraman122]

And when everyone else commits to using their motor they'll launch the DJI MGU belt-drive Amflow . .

The whole MGU thing is going to be an interesting thing to follow, because SRAM and Shimano have become industry kingpins for so long largely on the success of derailleur based drive trains. You know they'll do everything in their power to fight those from becoming mainstream with the big manufacturers until they release their own versions.

 

[whitymon]

I saw some bike with a gearbox without battery: you can shift speed up ok but need to stop pedal to down speed, crazy.

Hard to know if gearbox can take the reign. For emtb, perhaps for people willingly accepting the huge noise from the motor.

For analog bike, come on, we did not have the need for wireless shifting, do not open the door to the gearbox.

Some reasons you might want a gearbox, I guess, is that, no more cassette, weight at a better place, no more derailleur bent!

Some reasons you do not want them, it is not efficient, lack power vs a bosch for example, can't say much on an analog bike but different type of riding required.

I don't think tons of brand out there will make a frame for a belt and frame for a chain, too much gamble on money.