Dji avinox- Amflow

[Weeksy]

Absolutely true ....... But come on ....... it's nice when your bike exaggerates your ability .......

Most bikes fit that for me. Due to my boy being fast I get to see just how obvious it is that I'm the one holding bikes back, not the bike holding me back.

Like everyone, I love a nice bike. But it seems I'm less concerned about power than some. I could happily stick with the power delivery of the Rise.

 

[slickrock]

An important dimension of this is how natural the extra power assistance “feels”. I’ve felt that good bike motors have modes that kinda fool the rider into thinking that it's their own power is doing the work, but with much less fatigue that would normally be associated with that much output. On my Bosch P-CX, I get surprised how high my heart rate can go because “fatigue” is my primary brain signal that tells me to reduce exertion - when its reduced with power assistance, I actually output more work along with the work provided by the motor.

I’ve tried high-powered Bafang-motored bikes and they just feel more like they just want to take over all the work and run away with it. That throttles are often options on these beasts is telltale - much more “motocross” than “mountain bike”. What I hope is that this DJI motor is tuned for riding possibilities that allow the rider to be in full control with a power-to-feel feedback loop that’s experientially natural with all this increased power on tap. IOW, you want to feel like Mr. Incredible on the trails, as opposed to just riding a motocross bike.

Oh, and throw in a DJI MGU will your at it.

 

[DirkWisely]

An important dimension of this is how natural the extra power assistance “feels”. I’ve felt that good bike motors have modes kinda fool the rider into thinking that it's their own power is doing the work, but with much less fatigue that would normally be associated with that much output. On my Bosch P-CX, I get surprised how high my heart rate can go because “fatigue” is my primary brain signal that tells me to reduce exertion - when its reduced with power assistance, I actually output more work along with the work provided by the motor.

I’ve tried high-powered Bafang-motored bikes and they just feel more like they just want to take over all the work and run away with it. That throttles are often options on these beasts is telltale - much more “motocross” than “mountain bike”. What I hope is that this DJI motor is tuned for riding possibilities that allow the rider to be in full control with a power-to-feel feedback loop that’s experientially natural with all this increased power on tap. IOW, you want to feel like Mr. Incredible on the trails, as opposed to just riding a motocross bike.

Oh, and throw in a DJI MGU will your at it.

I agree. It's the difference between the bike making you feel like a superman, and a bike making it feel like turning the pedals is an on-switch for a motor.

 

[Jazzii]

I felt that when I tested Levo SL 2 last week and compared to my Exe. TQ is absolutely natural and Broze felt like motor bike switched on and of by pedal turn, what more, noisy like hell!
Testers of Avinox said its natural so I believe it is.

 

[sethimus]

I felt that when I tested Levo SL 2 last week and compared to my Exe. TQ is absolutely natural and Broze felt like motor bike switched on and of by pedal turn, what more, noisy like hell!
Testers of Avinox said its natural so I believe it is.

a) Brose, not Broze
b) actually a Mahle motor

you are welcome

 

[Jazzii]

a) Brose, not Broze
b) actually a Mahle motor

you are welcome

Importnt, thanks ;-)

 

[John_A]

I think the discussion a bout peak power was more a bout whether the availability/use of that had an impact on motor lifespan and/or reliability. That is something not yet proven with the DJI motor.

Like a few others on here I have no interest in more power than my current Bosch CX delivers. If I am riding uphill it is either to return back up to the head of a downhill trail....in which case speed is not a concern.....or tackling a techy steep climb, in which case grip and control are my priorities.

I felt that when I tested Levo SL 2 last week and compared to my Exe. TQ is absolutely natural and Broze felt like motor bike switched on and of by pedal turn, what more, noisy like hell!
Testers of Avinox said its natural so I believe it is.

Natural is a very subjective thing, all that power can’t be that natural. Not that that’s a bad thing IMO

 

[Jazzii]

Natural is a very subjective thing, all that power can’t be that natural. Not that that’s a bad thing IMO

Did you try one?

 

[John_A]

Did you try one?

No. I wish! I just meant is any ebike with that sort of power really ‘natural’?

I’m trying to hold off until we get a better idea of reliability. Not sure I can though!

I’m sure DJI have done there testing and it will be reliable. They would be mad to roll it out if they weren’t confident

 

[Weeksy]

No. I wish! I just meant is any ebike with that sort of power really ‘natural’?

I’m trying to hold off until we get a better idea of reliability. Not sure I can though!

I’m sure DJI have done there testing and it will be reliable. They would be mad to roll it out if they weren’t confident

Lol are you new here?

 

[John_A]

Lol are you new here?

Nope, do you disagree?

 

[Weeksy]

Nope, do you disagree?

Yup. Completely. Plenty of suppliers use customers as their test bed, their guinea pigs and development process, we see bike after bike after bike that last less than 10 miles before having motor issues.
To think that a brand new player into the game won't have teething problems is honestly crazy talk.
They will, how they deal with it will decide their fate.
Personally I wouldn't buy one for a few years.

 

[Emailsucks98]

Yup. Completely. Plenty of suppliers use customers as their test bed, their guinea pigs and development process, we see bike after bike after bike that last less than 10 miles before having motor issues.
To think that a brand new player into the game won't have teething problems is honestly crazy talk.
They will, how they deal with it will decide their fate.
Personally I wouldn't buy one for a few years.

Regardless of brand, seems like the life-span of eBike motors is around 2yrs if they're ridden hard. Maybe less for SL motors.

I think this is the salvation of the LBS - and only the good ones. Their experience dealing with the warranty process means a lot more to me than all the AMAZING UPHILL POWER! youtube videos.

 

[John_A]

Regardless of brand, seems like the life-span of eBike motors is around 2yrs if they're ridden hard. Maybe less for SL motors.

I think this is the salvation of the LBS - and only the good ones. Their experience dealing with the warranty process means a lot more to me than all the AMAZING UPHILL POWER! youtube videos.

Exactly why I’m considering Bafang. Cheap and easy repair and replacement. DJI still very temping though!

 

[irie]

Yup. Completely. Plenty of suppliers use customers as their test bed, their guinea pigs and development process, we see bike after bike after bike that last less than 10 miles before having motor issues.
To think that a brand new player into the game won't have teething problems is honestly crazy talk.
They will, how they deal with it will decide their fate.
Personally I wouldn't buy one for a few years.

Depends how risk averse you are, in your case highly it would seem.

 

[TimC7]

No. I wish! I just meant is any ebike with that sort of power really ‘natural’?

You don't have to ride it in turbo all the time. Riding in eco or trail using a fraction of the power should mean better longevity . . maybe.

 

[Jeff McD]

Regarding overheating, didn't Steve Clark's GMBN second video answer that question? He took it to incredibly steep and technical trails with some very long climbs. Maybe not super hot temperatures at that time however. My 2024 levo noticeably throttles back in turbo on several places of ultra steep, sustained, climbs (10 to 15 minutes) after approximately two or three minutes here in the heat in Hawaii. So I am definitely interested in this bike.
And while you young guns out there who think the power isn't important someday you will be 80 years old like me but still wanting to enjoy the 4-5 hour ride to the top of the mountain and back down most Sundays.
I do the trail maintenance on our nearby local trails with very steep climbs every Thursday and occasionally on Sunday. It is exhausting after a training ride followed by 2 to 3 hours of trail work carrying a 25 pound backpack of tools or pulling a trailer loaded with gravel for trail improvement.
Having said that, how good the warranty is is critical for me which is what I will wait for. Yeah

 

[John_A]

We don’t know if you can repair, or buy a replacement motor when out of warranty that would be nice to know before dropping a big pile of cash on one

 

[sethimus]

We don’t know if you can repair, or buy a replacement motor when out of warranty that would be nice to know before dropping a big pile of cash on one

can you still buy motors and batteries for dji's first gen drones?

 

[emtbeast]

Amflow first needs to prove itself IRL usage in all conditions. As It's a trail bike I am pretty sure people will want to overfork it to 170+ mm with a beafier 38mm fork, as a 36 is a bit lackluster on an emtb unless you buy it for cross country. A bigger fork will cause the back end with the tiny shock to suffer. A beafier suspension needs stronger brakes, there is the possible issue with the rear sensor disc not allowing a thicker brake rotor to be mounted due to clearance issues. The biggest hurdle and a tough one will be providing local support/service for the users. I know I definitely don't want to call an online support service or drive/ship the bike 300km+ to the first offical dealer/service.

Owning an emtb only two seasons, some electrical/electronic issues, a warranty motor replacement, the extra hassle of changing the brake lines, dropper lines, etc(all go under the motor with the majority of bikes), I came to a conclusion that, no matter the revolution, Power or Nm numbers I would never buy an emtb online or from a brand that doesn't have a reputable local dealer/service with a partnership of the chosen brand emtb.
An online chat line(most likely AI based on the start level, like a lot of brands choose to do) saying stuff like " turn of the bike for 10s and then back on" doesn't help when you start having water ingress or other electronically related issues on an ebike.

Owning a machine(what an mtb with a motor actually is) without local support and service is a Big NO GO.
-----------------------------

Also a bit about electric motor power and the 250W nominal power limit in the EU, as I see there seem to be some misconceptions about how an electric DC motor works and how the 250W limit is imposed on manufacturers.》》》》

The power output of an electric motor is a complex measurment:

P(Watt) = V(Volt) * I(Ampere)is only true in special circumstances eg when the load is a resistor.
It is not true in cases of an electric motor, whose real output depends on its Q factor, switching control, load etc.
This is because a motor gets pushed around its axle by solenoids, whose voltage across their terminals varies with time, the intensity of the current flowing through it is also a function of time, the output power is also a function of time with more variables than just V (voltage) and I (current Intensity).
Each function has also its harmonics, the resultant P is a complex function and it can be only measured in a lab environment.
The power is usually measured while the motor reaches its thermal equilibrium in a room at 25°C. Then there's also the factor of internal transmission that needs to be taken into consideration when looking at the final crank output numbers, if you look at some test diagrams from a german test lab the real crank Nm outputs are far lower than the speced motor are...


Also as I see a lot of people are confused about the 250W Power limit in EU, I did a little bit of online research about the European legislation EN15194, it is the standard that is most commonly applied, so maybe the bottom description will clears things up why such differences between brands.>>>>

There's effectively no limit in the European legislation EN15194, which It's all about the words and test methods, neither of which pin it down. The rules are that the manufacturer must not label the motor with more than 250w and a motor with a 250w label mustn't overheat when running at 250w continuous. You have to be careful about terminology and calculations. If you have a 20 amp controller and a battery at 40V, you can take as much as 800W from the battery, but at the low speeds where the controller will allow that current, efficiency will be as low as 25%, so the output power will only be 200W. When the motor is spinning fast enough to reach its 80% efficiency, the back EMF from the motor cuts down the current, so the maximum current from the battery might only be 10 amps max, so output power will be 10 amps x 40v x 0.8 efficiency = 320w.


From the attached diagram it can be concluded that the maximal torque of the motor is at very low speed. This is advantageous because it gives very good starting behaviour, but also means
high values of the current and the efficiency is small. So we have to deal with heating problems. The power reaches its maximum at the midle value of the speed, but here the efficiency of the motor is still very small and the problem of heating still persists. The highest value of the efficiency is at 4000 RPM close to the maximum value of the speed. This could be a good operating point, but here both the torque and the power of the motor are rather small. There are also some mechanical constrains to be taken into consideration. The shaft speed of the DC motor is 4000 RPM. This corresponds about an 80 km/h speed of the vehicle if the shaft of the DC motor is connected directly to the shaft of wheel. At a such kind of speed the power need to drive the vehicle would be much higher than that DC motor could deliver, that's where the internal motor transmission comes into play.

 

[TimC7]

Amflow first needs to prove itself IRL usage in all conditions. As It's a trail bike I am pretty sure people will want to overfork it . .

You lost me when you started on about buying a 5k bike then spending a fortune on changing everything . .

 

[emtbeast]

You lost me when you started on about buying a 5k bike then spending a fortune on changing everything . .

Who said I changed everything, I changed only the things that were lacking(only brake rotors). All other things broke and needed replacement. I am saying there is also lot more hassle with an ebike when u need to service it than an average Joe is capable of, also a am not babying my emtb...so things brake or stop working...

 

[Mikerb]

Afraid I understood very little of that ! Seems to me the most sensible way to regulate bikes with electric motor assist whilst pedalling is to set a maximum assisted speed.....which they did for pedelecs albeit many think it is set a little too slow......and then to set a maximum brake horsepower but measured at the rear wheel ( actually marginally less than at the motor final drive crank) which is easily tested like a car on a dyno. Some motors are now pushing 800w peak ( close to 1hp), How long any motor can sustain that without thermal cut out would be a key differentiator between motors together with the firmware that controls power delivery.

 

[Astro66]

DJI must be loving all the discussion this bike is creating. And Bosch must be a little deflated when their new motor has the exact same power and torque specs as the old motor, when there is so much buzz around the performance of the DJI motor.

I have been considering updating my Shimano motor to the new EP801, because of the new firmware update. This bike is giving me pause to reconsider. But I think de-restriction will keep me Shimano. It would be tough going back to 25kph, as I ride roads to get to some of my trails.

 

[nrgbod]

This bike is giving me pause to reconsider. But I think de-restriction will keep me Shimano. It would be tough going back to 25kph, as I ride roads to get to some of my trails.

You may find it's easier to de-restrict than Shimano!!
What we don't know is if de-restricting will affect the warranty like it does with bosch and Shimano.

 

[emtbeast]

Afraid I understood very little of that ! Seems to me the most sensible way to regulate bikes with electric motor assist whilst pedalling is to set a maximum assisted speed.....which they did for pedelecs albeit many think it is set a little too slow......and then to set a maximum brake horsepower but measured at the rear wheel ( actually marginally less than at the motor final drive crank) which is easily tested like a car on a dyno. Some motors are now pushing 800w peak ( close to 1hp), How long any motor can sustain that without thermal cut out would be a key differentiator between motors together with the firmware that controls power delivery.

I didn't expect most people to understand, but it was a try to give at least some insight...as written it's not as simple as a number on paper, really. Good points, would probably be the only real measurement that would bring all vehicles to the same final level, but that will probably never happen.

Just out ofcuriosity as these things interest me, I am still waiting to see what a real lab test of the Avinox will show...the mass of the motor is small, so thermal stability is a question here...

Everyone thinks the new Bosch BDU38 is a miss, I don't think so, I think this motor is just a base for the next step.

The most interesting improvement i think is that the Bosch gen5 has a significant improvement in the thermal stability area, it's thermal stability was high before but now it's really high and longer lasting as can be seen in this diagram.

 

[Gigs]

You may find it's easier to de-restrict than Shimano!!
What we don't know is if de-restricting will affect the warranty like it does with bosch and Shimano.

Page 3 of the Manual: what does "may" mean. Covering their butts.

 

[Astro66]

You may find it's easier to de-restrict than Shimano!!

There is no proven system out there at the moment to do it. Unlike Bosch and Shimano.

What we don't know is if de-restricting will affect the warranty like it does with bosch and Shimano.

This is the other thing. If you want to re-restrict, you must be prepared to lose your warranty. I can get a brand new EP801 motor for AUD$1200, which is £600, from a store 10km from my home. So I'm happy to pay that if the motor fails. Cost of doing business.

Who knows what a new DJI motor will cost ? You can't even get a price, let alone trying to find and get one from a distributor. So there is no chance I'm tampering with the motor.

 

[nrgbod]

There is no proven system out there at the moment to do it. Unlike Bosch and Shimano.

This is the other thing. If you want to re-restrict, you must be prepared to lose your warranty. I can get a brand new EP801 motor for AUD$1200, which is £600, from a store 10km from my home. So I'm happy to pay that if the motor fails. Cost of doing business.

Who knows what a new DJI motor will cost ? You can't even get a price, let alone trying to find and get one from a distributor. So there is no chance I'm tampering with the motor.

There's plenty of reports from riders in HK and China who are already using the bikes to the full potential.

I agree spare motor availability could be a clincher.

 

[John_A]

There's plenty of reports from riders in HK and China who are already using the bikes to the full potential.

Can you provide a link to any reports? This is very important to me and may just tip me over the edge and make me buy one