Derestricting bosch smart system

[Onetime]

For those with a rim magnet, has anyone simply tried removing it and instead placing a magnet on the chainring? I've confirmed this to work and give power up to >50kph, until cadence is the limit, but for such a simple solution, are there any stories of the smart system picking up on it?

I mean, it wouldn't take much for it to notice the 'wheel' rpm is always identical to the crank rpm... I remember this was done a bit on the e8000 (maybe even ep8?) by moving the speed sensor, but haven't seen anything on the Bosch.

It seems like this would trick the motor into thinking it’s going faster than it really is though right? It needs to think it’s going slower to make it go faster right? That’s why some of the other devices were/are counting every other wheel revolution rather than every revolution. If it’s detecting the magnet going around faster, like if it was on the chainring, it seems like that would make it go slower, not faster.

 

[Pantofla]

It seems like this would trick the motor into thinking it’s going faster than it really is though right? It needs to think it’s going slower to make it go faster right? That’s why some of the other devices were/are counting every other wheel revolution rather than every revolution. If it’s detecting the magnet going around faster, like if it was on the chainring, it seems like that would make it go slower, not faster.

Not really. This is how it was done on Bafang motors, if you didnt have their tuning box to do it through software. People put their magnets on pedals (and other one on frame). On 29" wheel 25kph = 180 rpm, so you would need to pedal really fast to be limited by this.
I dont think it will be this easy with Bosch though.

 

[megabobra]

It seems like this would trick the motor into thinking it’s going faster than it really is though right? It needs to think it’s going slower to make it go faster right? That’s why some of the other devices were/are counting every other wheel revolution rather than every revolution. If it’s detecting the magnet going around faster, like if it was on the chainring, it seems like that would make it go slower, not faster.

No it's the opposite; in say 12th gear, your cranks are going to be turning much slower than your wheel. With the crank magnet fitted, the Bosch app would should ~12kph constantly, dictated by my cadence. This is while a separate GPS display showed I was cruising under motor power ~40kph.

90rpm cadence at ~2330mm wheel circumference gives 12.5kph with the magnet on the cranks. The motor then would provide power up to ~180rpm cadence.

So it definitely does work, and it's easy to enable/disable when you have a steel chainring to stick the magnet to. Just wondering if I'm going to see an error message pop up!

 

[Onetime]

No it's the opposite; in say 12th gear, your cranks are going to be turning much slower than your wheel. With the crank magnet fitted, the Bosch app would should ~12kph constantly, dictated by my cadence. This is while a separate GPS display showed I was cruising under motor power ~40kph.

90rpm cadence at ~2330mm wheel circumference gives 12.5kph with the magnet on the cranks. The motor then would provide power up to ~180rpm cadence.

So it definitely does work, and it's easy to enable/disable when you have a steel chainring to stick the magnet to. Just wondering if I'm going to see an error message pop up!

Good to know. I’ll have to get a small magnet and try it out.

 

[Alexbn921]

Specialized is smart enough to know the cadence and throw an error code. I bet bosch is too.

 

[Barbar]

I’ve fitted two…. both worked up to a point…. Both used to cut the motor off completely and then sometimes switch it back on, sometimes I had to reboot the system. I sent the first back because of this problem… I also had my bike plugged into a bike shop computer…. It had myriad faults logged.
The replacement did the same but only roughly once per ride ( 30 mile plus rides ) Then it threw up a code 504 and shut the bike down…. Unfortunately I returned this one too as whilst it was great when working, I didn’t want the stress of being possibly left stranded ( again )

Hoi Guys,
I've just received the newest, upgraded speedbox 1.0 B and installed it today. so far its working great, all problems with my 1 st speedbox 1.0 are forgotten of course its rather early to say that this version wil remain okay but I've faith in this new version, although you do not see any difference but internally it should be different I was told.

All problems I've read in this forum I have them all too and contacted finally the manufactory and was told to return that box to the supplier and asked for the newest edition and here I am, a happy customer.

Hopefully I will stay happy.

 

[BeBiker]

Can you tell us with which version of the Bosch soft you ride?
So we know which version is still safe to upgrade to.

 

[Onetime]

Hoi Guys,
I've just received the newest, upgraded speedbox 1.0 B and installed it today. so far its working great, all problems with my 1 st speedbox 1.0 are forgotten of course its rather early to say that this version wil remain okay but I've faith in this new version, although you do not see any difference but internally it should be different I was told.

All problems I've read in this forum I have them all too and contacted finally the manufactory and was told to return that box to the supplier and asked for the newest edition and here I am, a happy customer.

Hopefully I will stay happy.

Do they make one that is compatible with the rim magnet yet?

 

[Freeforester]

It seems like this would trick the motor into thinking it’s going faster than it really is though right? It needs to think it’s going slower to make it go faster right? That’s why some of the other devices were/are counting every other wheel revolution rather than every revolution. If it’s detecting the magnet going around faster, like if it was on the chainring, it seems like that would make it go slower, not faster.

You could theoretically overcome this by placing a second magnet on the inner surface of something akin to a ‘false’ crank arm, set diametrically opposed to the first one, thereby tricking the motor into ‘thinking’ that you are going twice as fast as your crank revolutions actually are, which would still hopefully be slower than the revolution speed of the rear wheel, ie where the magnet is normally ‘sensed’ and thus trick the motor into continuing to assist; my brother-in-law set his Bosch Gen 2 motor up with a magnet on the inside of the crank arm of his hybrid ebike, having repositioned the sensor to match up with said magnet, and it worked no problem at all; alas, the same trick did not work on his wife’s Shimano motor-enabled hybrid, and we were ‘firmly discouraged’ from developing the idea, once her bike had come back from being away for a fortnight at the lbs to be cleared of error 504!

It may be a cranky idea, but I think it may have legs… okay, I’ll close the door on me way out!

 

[Alexbn921]

All Bosch motors are compatible with a hub mounted magnet. You just need the cable and maybe selecting it in the programing.

 

[Barbar]

Can you tell us with which version of the Bosch soft you ride?
So we know which version is still safe to upgrade to.

On the box itself you see no difference, it was told to us (and my friend) that we received the new speedbox which was developed by the manufacturer in Tsjechïe as a follow up at all the complains that the product not worked with te new Bosch smart system. I received this new box from "fietsunie.nl" here in the Netherlands as they returned all there present 1.0 boxes to this factory for exchangement, so if you order a speedbox from any where be sure you will get the newest version and ask for this new 1.0 box

I hope this will answer your question

 

[BeBiker]

No unfortunately it doesn't.

What is the update version of your Bosch system?
It's in your KIOX-300, menu-settings.... and then it appears

Can you share a photo ?

 

[stratosa]

All Bosch motors are compatible with a hub mounted magnet. You just need the cable and maybe selecting it in the programing.

HOW TO SELECT IT IN RROGRAMMING? Even the dealers don't have access to that extend. For anyone interested, plug a speed sensor in the motor, (Slim Speed Sensor), shake a magnet near the sensor, if you can see any speed other than 0 at the kiox300 it works, if not sell the bike for a not smart version if you are still interested in derestriction.

 

[BeBiker]

HOW TO SELECT IT IN RROGRAMMING? Even the dealers don't have access to that extend. For anyone interested, plug a speed sensor in the motor, (Slim Speed Sensor), shake a magnet near the sensor, if you can see any speed other than 0 at the kiox300 it works, if not sell the bike for a not smart version if you are still interested in derestriction.

Hey what's the difference between the brake sensor and the spoke sensor?

IIRC the brake sensor I have on my Bosch is a 2-pin, the spoke sensor on my Brose is also a 2-pin and works also with an alarm-reedcontact.

Is this just a connector issue or what is happening ?
On 3-pin sensors I can understand compatibility issues, but can't see what could be different between different 2-pin sensors.
Could be the difference between NO and NC which gives a signal with a different duty cycle ?

 

[Barbar]

No unfortunately it doesn't.

What is the update version of your Bosch system?
It's in your KIOX-300, menu-settings.... and then it appears

Can you share a photo ?

The Led Remote (controller) software 4.22.0
Bosch Perf Line CX software 4.21
Kiox 300 software 4.13

 

[BeBiker]

Hey thank you man !
Now we know to which version we will allow our dealer to update our bike.
(asking for a friend)

 

[Barbar]

Hey thank you man !
Now we know to which version we will allow our dealer to update our bike.
(asking for a friend)

I do the updates myself with the Bosch app "Flow" and removed the speedbox for security, although may be not necessary but it is so easy to remove rather than the previous bikes I had, I think through your own dealer is better that was what my dealer told me when I experienced an interruption of the update proces during the transfer and had a total black out of the KIOX and had to visit the dealer to solve this what he could fortunately

 

[stratosa]

WE

Hi does anyone have any info regarding derestricting the new bosch smart sytem 2022?
Best regards

After eleven months since this post was created, It is time to accept that there is not such thing as derestricting the new bosch smart sytem (may be because of the GPS)

 

[internetcomic]

I thought that one of the chip makers was working on a solution for the rim magnet-affected Bosch system? Anyone have any idea why it's so much more complicated with the rim-magnet (sorry if this has been asked before)?

 

[Onetime]

I thought that one of the chip makers was working on a solution for the rim magnet-affected Bosch system? Anyone have any idea why it's so much more complicated with the rim-magnet (sorry if this has been asked before)?

I’m wondering the same thing. Hoping someone comes out with a solution soon.

 

[Mikerb]

I dont think it has anything to do with the type of speed sensor/magnet. The Bosch Smart System uses an ultra fast network system which enables far greater volumes of sensor data to be monitored by the controller with ease and is therefore fully capable of determining whether cadence, torque, speed, and watts delivered by the battery fall within normal criterea as set by the firmware in any given mode. that would mean it is capable of identifying any form of device that breaks that formula. All the bike brands have committed to do all within their power to prevent derestriction but some are constrained by their existing firmware/network. That is almost certainly not the case with the brand new Smart System.

 

[Alexbn921]

It would need to know the gear you are in and the grade of the hill. Maybe even the direction of the wind.

If you changed chain rings it would also throw a code.

Not a likely way they are fighting derestricting.

Other than GPS, there is no way to determine that you are going 1.5x slower with a planetary gear on the magnet.

Requiring that you link to a phone would be a way to gain access to GPS.

 

[Scoppex]

I think using GPS system by producers to detect derestrictions will be a bad idea. There could be many "false-positive" errors since GPS location are far from perfect. It could block "innocent" people.

 

[Mikerb]

It would need to know the gear you are in and the grade of the hill. Maybe even the direction of the wind.

If you changed chain rings it would also throw a code.

Not a likely way they are fighting derestricting.

Other than GPS, there is no way to determine that you are going 1.5x slower with a planetary gear on the magnet.

Requiring that you link to a phone would be a way to gain access to GPS.

Well I wonder! How much torque you apply from a standstill gives an indication of gear ratio and the initial acceleration in the first moments from a standstill would appear impossibly slow given the torque applied. The Smart System is also clearly able to identify any non approved device that is inserted into the network ( and that is a pretty standard capability on various networks).

Suffice to say as far as I know none of the derestricting devices that worked on the gen 2 Bosch system now work on the gen 3 ( Bosch Smart System) so the system seems able to detect any such device.

 

[Planemo]

It would need to know the gear you are in and the grade of the hill. Maybe even the direction of the wind.

If you changed chain rings it would also throw a code.

Not a likely way they are fighting derestricting.

Other than GPS, there is no way to determine that you are going 1.5x slower with a planetary gear on the magnet.

But I thought thats exactly how they were fighting derestricting, using the data Mikerb pointed out above.

Re your 1.5x slower, the system tries to find this by using lookup tables to work out why the motor is using more torque and the battery more current to do a speed that is reportedly 1.5x slower than it should be (it's also looking at rider input effort of course). Yes you could be going up a gradient but most people won't be riding gradients for that long, plus, crucially, they will be coming back down again which means speed/time against a drastically reduced torque/current so the data averages out. As a side note I actually wouldn't be surprised if the mobo has a built in inclinometer but I'm just guessing there.

Volspeed and others 'make up' this missing erroneous data via electronic means but a mechanical device like a planetary gear doesn't do this which makes it even more likely to bring up derestriction fault codes.

Knocking speed up just a couple of mph makes it harder for the system to detect but knocking it up 5mph+ (and using it) adds a fair chunk of power consumption when you look at the increase in wind drag alone. The system can't ignore this indefinitely and at some point will flag up a derestriction error. Even Volspeed recommend that the max speed used should be less (20mph?) than it is actually capable of (28mph) to have the best chance of avoiding errors.

All said, I'm sure glad I am on the previous gen and not on the Smart system. Sounds like it's going to be a nightmare to derestrict.

 

[Alexbn921]

But I thought thats exactly how they were fighting derestricting, using the data Mikerb pointed out above.

Re your 1.5x slower, the system tries to find this by using lookup tables to work out why the motor is using more torque and the battery more current to do a speed that is reportedly 1.5x slower than it should be (it's also looking at rider input effort of course). Yes you could be going up a gradient but most people won't be riding gradients for that long, plus, crucially, they will be coming back down again which means speed/time against a drastically reduced torque/current so the data averages out. As a side note I actually wouldn't be surprised if the mobo has a built in inclinometer but I'm just guessing there.

Volspeed and others 'make up' this missing erroneous data via electronic means but a mechanical device like a planetary gear doesn't do this which makes it even more likely to bring up derestriction fault codes.

Knocking speed up just a couple of mph makes it harder for the system to detect but knocking it up 5mph+ (and using it) adds a fair chunk of power consumption when you look at the increase in wind drag alone. The system can't ignore this indefinitely and at some point will flag up a derestriction error. Even Volspeed recommend that the max speed used should be less (20mph?) than it is actually capable of (28mph) to have the best chance of avoiding errors.

All said, I'm sure glad I am on the previous gen and not on the Smart system. Sounds like it's going to be a nightmare to derestrict.

Nope. Your logic flawed.

Without all the data, look up tables are complete useless and a terrible way to fight derestriction. Any change to tires, gearing, cranks, even bearing drag would throw it for a loop. Simply switching riders of different weight would mess with the tables. I'm sorry my ebike doesn't work today because I'm wearing a backpack and it thinks I'm cheating. I've been climbing for longer than 30 minutes so my bike stopped working again .

If you simply trick the speed sensor and the bike has not other way of calculating actual speed then it CAN"T.

Again the bike only has one way to calculate speed. GPS or highly calibrated 3d accelerometers would be the only other way.

The bike doesn't know the grade, wind, gear ratio, true speed so with current setups it's impossible to detect a planetary gear speed reduction.

700watts at 28mph on flat ground = 700watts climbing a hill at 10mph. Watts are watts.

The simple way is to build in a gps chip or require linked to phone required to ride.

Great this valley has terrible gps and my bike stopped working. OR my phone died and my bike turned off.

Manufactures are trying to keep honest people honest.

 

[Planemo]

Nope. Your logic flawed.

Logic doesn't come into it. I'm simply explaining how the systems do their best to detect derestriction.

I'm sorry my ebike doesn't work today because I'm wearing a backpack and it thinks I'm cheating.

You're aware thats exactly what happened to at least one rider who used a loaded trailer right?

If you simply trick the speed sensor and the bike has not other way of calculating actual speed then it CAN"T.

No it can't but thats not the point. With the greatest respect I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make.

so with current setups it's impossible to detect a planetary gear speed reduction.

If it was impossible to detect then every bike out there would be using a cheap-ass planetary gear to derestrict rather than something far more involved like a Volspeed etc.

It doesn't know about the planetary gear per se but it does know theres a confliction because over a period of time the bike will decide that it isn't normal to be outputting X power for X (alleged) speed.

I'm not saying it's ideal at all (cue the poor sod with the totally stock bike but using a trailer) but it is what it is.

I'm still not sure whether you're trying to say that planetary gears are the answer, whether it's something else or you are simply aggravated by the current methods used by manufactures to prevent derestriction.

 

[Alexbn921]

Towing a heavy load can overheat the battery and motor causing it to protect itself.

Do you have any actual data showing planatery gears don't work. Other than Bosch is suppa smart and just knows.

Specialized and Shimano definitely can't tell. Although Shimano it only takes a cheap app to bypass.

 

[Mikerb]

Towing a heavy load can overheat the battery and motor causing it to protect itself.

Do you have any actual data showing planatery gears don't work. Other than Bosch is suppa smart and just knows.

Specialized and Shimano definitely can't tell. Although Shimano it only takes a cheap app to bypass.

This thread was about derestriction on the Bosch Smart Sytem.....not Shimano or Brose . It is clear that Shimano, Brose and the previous generation Bosch could be hacked. If we actually knew how the Bosch Smart System is able to detect hacking the various companies selling the kit would have products available.......they haven't......tell you something?

 

[BeBiker]

This thread was about derestriction on the Bosch Smart Sytem.....

the various companies selling the kit would have products available.......they haven't......tell you something?

They have, and they work. Please don't spread misinformation
Everybody knows the box to derestrict the smart system works very good, with some exceptions that have production quality issues.

And except a very uncommon smart system that still has a with wheel magnet.

If we actually knew how the Bosch Smart System is able to detect hacking

People with the right education, experience and attention span know.