Dengfu E22 Frame Thread

[Harvamtb]

27kg.
View attachment 82931

Whilst I'm reminded that I'm running 27.5x2.8 Michelin E-Wilds front & rear.
View attachment 82932

Nevertheless, 63.7 degree headtube angle with a 170mm travel fork
View attachment 82935
75.5 degree seat tube angle.
View attachment 82936

I'm gonna adjust some parameters within the motor tune.
View attachment 82937
The motor ramp up seems a bit too sudden when climbing. Notwithstanding the 330mm bottom bracket height.

Looking good! Did you say you also have the E10 frame? Would love to see a comparison.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Looking good! Did you say you also have the E10 frame? Would love to see a comparison.

Working on it

 

[Dengfu]

Do they have motor for legal use in the UK?

Isn't this the highly technical fix?
(Bafang e-bike Sticker by electricmtb)

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Isn't this the highly technical fix?
(Bafang e-bike Sticker by electricmtb)

Lol, if only it were that simple

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Not to deviate away from the from the thread's true goal but,,,

Just look how far the far east have come to bring emtb's with decent geometry, revised suspension platforms & aesthetically more pleasing.

I remember building the Lancer back in mid 2018. And now.

Well, you can see for yourselves how far they've come

And I'm reminded that the best is yet to come

 

[Chrisnow]

Hi Guys
I got a question about the battery. 14Ah 52v vs 17Ah48v. Which one do you prefer ?
Last year I built the bike on seroxat frame with M620 and 52v battery. I am very please with the behavior of the battery. I am wondering what would be the comparison to 48 v battery.
Chris

 

[Mabman]

I am not able to give you a definitive answer on 52v vs. 48v. Doing my research, similar to what you are doing, however it was suggested that wh's trumped higher volt rating and as those of us that have M620 bikes know they do like their wh's.......But I did get feedback that 52v really wakes the motor up so there is that to consider. Also what amp BMS you spec makes a difference.

In your case you would be giving up many wh's, 728 vs. 816 so it may be better to go with the 48v, especially if it is a second battery? A 15ah 52v and a 17.5ah 48v is what I am going to end up with. But the 52v is being made of 21700 cells and with larger 40A BMS which I think should put it on par with my stock 48v 17.5ah 18650 cell battery. At least that is my theory. Time will tell and I'll report back in a few weeks.

Also the reason that I am going with the larger cells is because it is my experience that they perform better down at the lower end of voltage. My stock 18650 cell battery really loses it badly in that zone even under low demand. I have been using 21700 cell Hailong style packs for 4 years now and I guess gotten used to them?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Hi @Chrisnow,
You've asked a good question. My intention will be to answer this question in due course.

I have stipulated before that by running a bigger battery, the system weight of the ebike does increase. However, I am reminded that not all batteries are made and built the same (or equally for that matter).

To that reason, I'm liaising with another Youtuber so that we can both put out content comparing the different types of batteries circulating which remain available.

Granted, my Dengfu E22 frame will come on handy for this. But so will my other ebikes which use different battery designs.

@Mabman, has highlighted the discrepancies between cells found within different 48v/52v packs. This is true and even I'm discovering this.

But more interestingly, my fascination is with the BMS within certain packs.

But again, I'll share my findings once I've got conclusive evidence

 

[Tomteam]

Not to deviate away from the from the thread's true goal but,,, View attachment 83075
Just look how far the far east have come to bring emtb's with decent geometry, revised suspension platforms & aesthetically more pleasing.

View attachment 83076
I remember building the Lancer back in mid 2018. And now.

View attachment 83077
Well, you can see for yourselves how far they've come

And I'm reminded that the best is yet to come

Nice construction!!
You've tried?
Tell us something about the programming of the motor and the response to the pedals.

 

[Mabman]

Nice construction!!
You've tried?
Tell us something about the programming of the motor and the response to the pedals.

I'm sure Neeko has his take on the programming as he has had M620 motors for awhile now but I got one a few months ago and have been working on dialing in the programming myself.

Access via a windows computer with a specific cable to a program with fairly simple templates that allows access to all parameters is the base. There are no specific instructions from Bafang on how each parameter relates to each other but on YouTube there are videos from others that have done programming to follow. But as each rider may have different requirements it is not a cut and paste situation I have found.

First of all the PAS has the ability to be either cadence oriented or torque oriented but I have found that a mix of the two works best for me. In the first couple of modes I keep the torque assist high so that pedal feel at lower speeds I use in technical terrain is more active and thus natural feeling but with lots of available nm. One can tune out any motor overrun easily also or leave a little if wanted. In higher modes, choice of either 0-5 or 0-9 available I use 0-5, such as 3,4, and 5 I lighten up some on the torque values and add in some cadence so that at speed I still have pedal feel but using an 80-90rpm cadence am able to maintain speed easily.

Here is a pic of the torque template of the program as an example of the parameters available:



At this point I am fairly happy with how the bike pedal feel is but going to keep on adjusting it in small increments to see if I can make it better, or worse! Good thing is it is easy to setup, although not bluetooth like the bigger companies, and make changes.

I don't have much experience on major brand motor PAS systems but do have lots of natural pedaling experience and it is important to me that my eBikes mirror that feeling and although the M620 can provide alot of power I still want it to do so with effort, not just by turning the cranks around and having a vague feel.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Good work @Mabman . And I'm reminded that your fairly new to programming the motor. And you've already got the hang of it.

@Tomteam, my intention is to put a video out explaining the programming parameters of the M620 on each of my bikes and explaining (in my opinion), the differences exhibited by each motor.

The Freedom for example has a motor tune which complements the fact that its rolling on 29ers (provides enough inertia to allow the back wheel to move, without exerting unnecessary power. Utilizing a more efficient power band to ensure range when paired with a 850wh battery). As a result, the motor tune could be considered 'natural feeling' as the motor works moreso as 'pedal assist' instead of 'pedal amplification'. It is worth mentioning that this bike remains the only M620 to not use the motor over-run feature as I've amended the keep-current and return-current values to ensure a smoother feel.

The Tsunami on the other hand, utilizes a motor tune where it prioritizes power instead of range and efficiency.
Torque values have also been amended. But moreso because of the gearing ratio (although in my personal opinion, the fabled discussion of 'the best/optimised ebike drivetrain' is somewhat wasted with the current motor tune.
Response time of the M620 on the Tsunami has been increased, which results in the bike 'literally' wanting to move forward with very little effort. Naturally, the over-run feature remains prevalent.

To be honest, I could go on as to the motor tunes on the Blade, Saviour etc. But the point being, they're all different. Complimenting (in my opinion), the characteristics to which each bike in terms of its application and equipment it favours and uses.

Apologies if I don't have screenshots of each motor tune to show with each bike I've described. I'll be sure to do this soon.

As for the Arcade (the name I've given the Dengfu E22 frame build), I'm still playing around with the tune.

On the one hand, I could play it safe and use a somewhat similar tune to the Freedom. But tweek values. This would lend itself nicely to the 850wh battery.
On the other hand, I could use a motor tune similar to the Tsunami/Saviour. Prioritising torque and power over range. This too would work, as the geometry of the bike is more aggressive.

Needless to say, this weekend will be the proper shakedown ride.

Hell, I've busted out the Kenevo as a comparison so I'll compile my data and go from there

 

[Tomteam]

I will be aware of your publications but... I would like to have a reliable source where they explain to me the meaning of the variables that can be programmed and their safety range.
I'm trying to read as much as I can to understand it.
I have used for years, with great satisfaction, a BBS02 to which I adjusted the programming parameters in such a way that I obtained very predictable results in my pedal strokes.
Now I intend to understand the relationship between pedal assist and torque, as well as understand the programmable variables in the torque section.
I have already seen some websites like:
Bafang Ultra Review. Most powerful Mid-Drive PAS motor just got better
And this:
I Void Warranties : Hacking The Bafang Ultra Max Mid-Drive Ebike Drive
I found some contradictions between them.
Any recommended reading?

 

[Mabman]

The I void warranty tune or "Secret Sauce" as it is known is what came on my Luna Z1 and it was pretty horrible, at least for my requirements. The throttle was way to abrupt and in modes 1/2 also it was set too high with lots of run on. That also carried on with the higher modes which made for exciting high speeds if using a high cadence but seemed to really suck wh's and made me almost regret my purchase. Can't recommend it at all.

The Frey "Smooth Tune" article is pretty comprehensive at least in explaining the different settings but doesn't do much to say how they actually relate to one another which in fact they do. Upon recommendation from a forum member that raved about it it was the first one that I copied to get rid of the original tune. But it didn't do what I wanted in regards to what I feel is a natural pedal feel in all modes and the throttle was still janky as well as modes 1/2 were too high with run on.

This is another YouTube tune video that I referenced that didn't do much for me but am including it:

Definitely commuter biased but does have some info on the variables of use.

This video is the one that I actually felt I got the most out of and am basically using as a base with modifications as I go along.


However none of the above mentioned address what I feel is the single most important setting of the entire program, and that is how to calibrate the torque sensor to the individual which gives you your base voltage. How you do that is with the continuous get feature at the bottom of the torque tab:

In order to set this properly you need to have the program going and while leaning against a wall and holding still apply your weight to the pedals at 9/3 and then press the Continuous Get button. Just takes a second and then re-press the button to set. The TqVoltate(mV) value, shown 752 above but probably will be different, then becomes the base value in the top tab of the page. You can set the value a bit higher for more sensitivity by a value of 2 or 3 but it shouldn't be set at less. I am not sure why none of the above links say anything about this but it is important.

After you do this the other values in the box will display figures but I haven't messed with them nor know what they mean in regards to other parts of the programming. I should mention that the pic in my other post doesn't represent this as I took it before I found out about the calibration feature.

 

[Waynemarlow]

If only we could do this with the M series motors. I had dialled in my BBS02 pretty well to my specific needs using I think a Norwegian guys program and miss that " tuning " dreadfully on my M600.

 

[Tomteam]

If only we could do this with the M series motors. I had dialled in my BBS02 pretty well to my specific needs using I think a Norwegian guys program and miss that " tuning " dreadfully on my M600.

That's why I decided on the M620 UART protocol.
I don't need that much power, I don't think I'll ever use more than 1000w peak. But I want to be able to manipulate the parameters.
I think we should open a topic to deal with aspects of the programming of the M620 UART

 

[Mabman]

That's why I decided on the M620 UART protocol.
I don't need that much power, I don't think I'll ever use more than 1000w peak. But I want to be able to manipulate the parameters.
I think we should open a topic to deal with aspects of the programming of the M620 UART

Unfortunately I don't see much of a future for a stand alone thread on these forums for that purpose. The M620 motor being a heavy beast and way over the legal limit of power in the EU/UK will most likely keep it sanctioned to a very niche market. However there are many M620 UART bikes in the US and so at some point there will probably be a more comprehensive understanding of the programming parameters that comes of that and a road map to follow?

Personally I was targeting the M600 also and following its progression for years. But the whole CanBus thing as a primarily DIY guy as well as reports of mechanical issues had me on the fence for quite awhile. When Luna had its Black Friday announcement I didn't get to it in time for a medium frame so I made a quick decision to just get the M620 version even though I knew it was going to be more powerful, and heavier, than what I needed. Or at least thought I needed.....

After 600+ miles now and with modifications and creeping up on a good program I have really bonded with the bike. Heavy yes, but I find that the weight only shows up at under 1 mph.. I am a wheels on the ground rider so I appreciate how stable the bike is at speed and how the suspension works in technical terrain to keep the bike from bucking around. My local rides encompass most types of terrain that I can mix and match and I feel like and the E22 frame handles all instances very well, at least from my experience from the other eBikes I have had or ridden.

As far as the fact that they have the potential to put out 1500w and 160nm torque I don't use that feature hardly at all but for the little distance I have to travel to the trails on pavement I do find myself cranking it up and blasting those sections just to get rid of them and the cars/trucks that share that space. But if Bafang made a 1/2 size M620 UART motor, which I think the M600 should have been, I would trade for one of those instead.

As an aside I am going to post this gem here, I found it to be really funny!

 

[Waynemarlow]

Yup Bafang are missing a real trick here, every owners wants to play with the way his / her motor re acts to their environment. So far Bafang Shimano, Bosch and Fazua seem to want to go the other way, make it more difficult.

Now if Bafang wants to be No 1 then that is the one area they need to be looking at and all just for the cost of developing properly their BafangGo App.

 

[Mabman]

Yup Bafang are missing a real trick here, every owners wants to play with the way his / her motor re acts to their environment. So far Bafang Shimano, Bosch and Fazua seem to want to go the other way, make it more difficult.

Now if Bafang wants to be No 1 then that is the one area they need to be looking at and all just for the cost of developing properly their BafangGo App.

In a way I understand why the aforementioned are doing it to strictly adhere to the EU legislation and keep people from over amping their motors that are not built for over amping to begin with. But Bafang has been building motors that are able to over amp for years and with the exception of some peanut butter plastic gear problems from doing so take it rather well. They should really pay attention to the market that they helped to create rather than the one that is being well serviced by others that don't want it. I don't see them breaking into that market anyway as their attempts to do so seem pretty janky as per their CanBus system that is without the App already?

But this thread is about the E22 and on with the program! For mine I am patiently waiting for the batteries I have on order. I need to service my front shock also probably so that will be a learning process unless I can get together with my buddy that knows how to show me. I'm sure youtubeU has the way to do it as he lives in the next county up the road.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I will be aware of your publications but... I would like to have a reliable source where they explain to me the meaning of the variables that can be programmed and their safety range.
I'm trying to read as much as I can to understand it.
I have used for years, with great satisfaction, a BBS02 to which I adjusted the programming parameters in such a way that I obtained very predictable results in my pedal strokes.
Now I intend to understand the relationship between pedal assist and torque, as well as understand the programmable variables in the torque section.
I have already seen some websites like:
Bafang Ultra Review. Most powerful Mid-Drive PAS motor just got better
And this:
I Void Warranties : Hacking The Bafang Ultra Max Mid-Drive Ebike Drive
I found some contradictions between them.
Any recommended reading?

Sincere apologies for the delay @Tomteam.

I'll be honest with you, any publications concerning Bafang are somewhat 'subjective' or 'speculative'.

I did check online to see whether any further materials have been added but all signs lead to no.

Granted the only reason why I'm familiar (and proficient) at messing with these motors is because (in my opinion), Bafang have never offered warranty on any of their products. As such, I have to diligently learn everything I can to ensure that I keep the motors going. This includes having my contacts, investing in parts etc.

Nevertheless to answer your question concerning understanding the motor in terms of torque, pedal assist and programming, it's very difficult to put in words (or demonstrate in a video).

The only way I could explain (as best as I can), would be to think of the motor as another part of the bike you could dial in (like suspension, tyre pressure, brakes etc).

Often most manufacturers offer limitations (presets) as to what the end user can configure and change, depending on their respective trails/requirements/efficiency & range etc. Usually, this takes the form of offering a rider the ability to toggle between different levels of assist or, amend each (or some) levels of assist which effects how much maximum current can be achieved per level of assist.

Whilst Bafang in recent years have opted to prevent the user from tweaking with the motor, it has been established that the M400, M420 & M620 could be programmed (within the confines of the stock controller) which alters the characteristics of the motor. Notwithstanding by design, all bafang mid drive motors ensure that the chainring/spider works independently from the spindle/crank.

If it helps, I can attempt to explain particular enquiries you may have in more detail. But bare in mind, I'm not Bafang spokesperson and have no affiliations with them.

Alternatively, I could PM you an email address for you to reach out to Bafang for you to make your own enquiries.

Let me know either way .

 

[Tomteam]

I understand that in the end we are only users of the platform that bafang puts in our hands and with no other interest than enjoying the product in the best possible way and getting all the performance out of it.
That is why I see it as very good to be able to share the configurations of each one and comment on them. That will help us all understand how to refine the behavior of the engine.
I was surprised by @Mabman 's comment about the importance of calibrating the torque sensor. This is the first news I have of this and I find it very interesting. I don't think most users do that and I think it can be crucial to have a progressive and predictable response from the engine.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Well,

we got the bike dirty. And I wasn't timid with the thing.

I can't stress the importance of frame protection people

Everything still works and no issues detected. So we move onto phase 2.

 

[Mabman]

I find it is hard to be timid with an E22 frankly. Now that I have my program dialed in and better used to how it handles and what it will handle as long as a firm commitment is made it is a hard beast to hold back!

As far as calibrating the torque sensor goes, after my initial response and further diagnostics, while calibration is important it really doesn't do more than set a base value for the torque mapping setup up in the fields below. When I did mine I found that it was close to one of the base values of the ones suggested by others and it works fine, at my riding weight. But when I set up my friend Ray's and had him do a continuous get while on the bike as expected his was slightly lower and set him up at that value and he is quite pleased with his overall results as well. So as an example my riding weight of 210 is set for 750 and his of 180 is at 740. Still think there is some room to maneuver either side of those figures but happy enough with how it all blends together but at some point might try some one side or the other to see if there is any gain/loss?

 

[Kyokushin]

View attachment 81854

2.0 Degree EC44-ZS56 Angle Headset - To Suit Tapered Steerer Tube

Change your bikes geometry to suit you - with our World Cup proven angle headsets you can alter stock geometry, changing the way your bike rides and feels to better match your personal riding style. With years of experience manufacturing Angle Headsets, whether you are just starting out, or the...

www.workscomponents.co.uk

I am using the same set of WorksComponents slackerizer in my bike (long 140mm tube) and that gave me full 2 degree of slack - works perfect.

BTW, great project man! Congrats!

 

[Thediesel233]

Good looking bike! Thanks for sharing your journey and build with us!

Question... the ebay link you provided for the frame has a geometry chart for the frame which shows a 72.5 degree seat tube angle. The E22 frames listed on Alibaba also show a 72.5 degree seat tube angle.

I emailed Watts Wagon and they provided a geometry chart which shows a 74.5 degree seat tube angle for what appears to be an identical rebranded frame (hyrda).

You measured a 75.5 degree seat tube angle on your frame?

Can you provide any clarity or input? The seat tube angle seems to be all over the place.

I just ordered an E10 frame through Alibaba because the 72.5 degree seat tube angle on the E22 was a deal breaker. But If they actually have the same seat tube angle then I may have to change my order

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Good looking bike! Thanks for sharing your journey and build with us!

Question... the ebay link you provided for the frame has a geometry chart for the frame which shows a 72.5 degree seat tube angle. The E22 frames listed on Alibaba also show a 72.5 degree seat tube angle.

I emailed Watts Wagon and they provided a geometry chart which shows a 74.5 degree seat tube angle for what appears to be an identical rebranded frame (hyrda).

You measured a 75.5 degree seat tube angle on your frame?

Can you provide any clarity or input? The seat tube angle seems to be all over the place.

I just ordered an E10 frame through Alibaba because the 72.5 degree seat tube angle on the E22 was a deal breaker. But If they actually have the same seat tube angle then I may have to change my order

I wont lie to you @Thediesel233, I have spotted discrepancies with the geometry given by Dengfu, Watt Wagon & Luna.
I'm not sure how they measure certain proportions of the bike. However, my app on my phone (which has proven to be accurate), has yielded a 75.5° seat tube angle when a 170mm travel fork is installed. This was then checked further by my local suspension expert. Naturally, a mullet setup would slacken the seat tube angle further.
In addition, reach (which bizarrely isn't outlined on some manufacturers geometry table) is also different. By measuring the vertical distance from the centre of the headtube to where the bottom bracket spindle of the motor, my tape measure reads 496mm (this was done before installing my Works Components headset). Sadly, I am unable to verify the geometry of a medium or small frame (for now). But I'll share my findings once I've built further frames.

 

[Thediesel233]

Thank you! Glad it worked out well for you geometry wise.

 

[Mabman]

Just received two 21700 cell batteries based on the stock case that fits the E22 frames, as well as the other E series DengFu frames I believe? One is a 15ah 48v 720wh and the other is a 52v 15ah 780wh both with 40A BMS. The stock 17.5ah 48v 840wh one that came with my Z1 is not the best performer IMNSHO and I have been using 21700 cell Hailong case batteries for the last 4 years and wanted to give them a go. If nothing else as a second battery for long days. One is for a friend btw as I don't expect that long of a day.....but if I do I'll just borrow his two and really get a sore bum.

Had to do some back and forth with their sales guy and deal with the language barrier as well as the CNY so it took two months from concept to delivery but a bit less than one month from payment. Haven't gotten to try them out yet but have the 52v on the charger for a trial tomo. Bonus of the M620 is that with a slight flick of the switch on the display you can toggle between 48v and 52v and the controller will handle either. I am primarily hoping for better power on the lower end of the voltage range. The stock battery quite frankly sucks at that. I lose useable power at like 45v, well above the LVC of 41v. So in fact my 840wh battery is more like a 700wh anyway. Also the stock battery has a 30A BMS which the manufacturer I used said was really no more than 26A.

BMS for the 48v. 5A cells.




Due to the size restriction of the stock integral case this is the most cells that one can fit in there. Testing starts today with the main goal being bettre low voltage performance.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

@Mabman, could you kindly weight each battery please?

I'm curious as to the difference between the 720wh (48v 15amp), 840wh (48v 17.5amp) & 780wh (52v 15amp)

In addition, when testing each battery, be sure to adjust the low voltage cutoff point for the 52v battery. The last thing you want is to harm the cell pack through ddischarging it lower than the controller is rated for

 

[Mabman]

@Mabman, could you kindly weight each battery please?

I'm curious as to the difference between the 720wh (48v 15amp), 840wh (48v 17.5amp) & 780wh (52v 15amp)

In addition, when testing each battery, be sure to adjust the low voltage cutoff point for the 52v battery. The last thing you want is to harm the cell pack through ddischarging it lower than the controller is rated for

Neeko, I don't have a very accurate way to measure the weight of the batteries but by feel they all weigh about the same or close to it. The only way to get a lighter battery would be with less Ah via less cells or a non cased battery altogether which I don't want. As it is in order to get as much of either cell type in there density wise it is pretty equal. If I get to a good scale I will take measurements however.

Quite frankly with the E22/M620 I have given up on saving weight over performance and component durability. It has plenty of power to overcome its heft and I don't do air time and am quite happy with how planted the bike is riding technical terrain and it handles plenty well enough for me overall as is.

I considered the LVC differential but rather than re-adjusting the LVC in the programming, which I already have done to 38v for the stock 48v in order to get it to provide some power below 46v where it was doing a hard cutoff on my stock battery, I will just keep an eye on the voltage on the display as I do now to not go below 41v. There will be a gradual loss of power as a warning first and I can key off of it as well.

My main interest is how the new batteries perform at lower voltages and I am going to start off testing with the 48v which is showing 47.1v as is proper for shipping. I will ride as is without charging close by and see how it does. I have the 52v one fully charged now to 58.8v and will test that one for any additional power/mileage gains from the higher voltage and expect that it will perform as well as the 48v does on the lower end of its voltage rating.

 

[Mabman]

Day turned out nice here so got to test both batteries. The, 48v which started at 48v, did great down to 43v then started to taper off until down to LVC @ 41v. Took 672wh's to charge back to 54.5v. Not too bad from a 720wh rated battery and frankly about all I was getting out of the stock 840wh. Full charge test tomo.

The fully charged 52v one as expected was peppy at full 58.8v heading out. There is a 1.5mile paved climb to the end of the road from my place and I hit it at mode 5 in high gear just cause on the Z1 and usually average 15 mph on it but today more like 20. On my previous TSDZ2 bike I was lucky to average 10....Good in the woods on 1/2 which follows that and then some beach/dune trail and gravel road back to sand back to gravel all fairly flatish but the sand riding was somewhat soft due to a highish tide. The 2 mile climb back towards home on a closed paved road I had all the power I wanted whereas the same ride with my stock 840wh battery I would not. I am going to say that seat of the pants the 52v battery is the overall winner and wish I had just got two of them.

One thing though is that the power change messed with my programming some making pedal feel a bit lighter if that makes sense? Current thinking is that I'll sell my stock battery and get another 52v one so then I can set up my programming for 52v via the computer not just via the display. But for now I can live with it.