Commencal Meta Power Signature 29 2021early thoughts (TLDR?)

[IainF]

Fortunate enough to receive my Meta before Christmas and have a bit over 200Km on it so far.

The experience has been mixed but Commencal themselves have been great, (I can explain if you want)

First off the bike arrived with Euro brake set-up. This was my fault as I didn’t think to specify otherwise as I’m so used to SRAM brakes where you can just unclip the levers and swap them not thinking that this might not be the case with Shimano brakes. In the end I just swapped the hoses as quickly as I could, positioning the bike to minimize the risk of air getting in and this seemed to work fine.

Second, I managed to ‘brick’ the bike when attempting to update the firmware using the Shimano E-Tube app (on a Galaxy Note 9). The app just couldn’t seem to maintain a connection to the bike no matter how close I held the phone. Unfortunately, if the firmware update fails, it doesn’t revert to the earlier version, it corrupts the firmware and then tries to restore the original and this failed as well, resulting in the bike being ‘bricked’. Interestingly, the error code it generated wasn’t recognised by the tech’s at the service centre (suggesting I’d transposed the digits until I sent them a photo).

Took the bike to the local Shimano service centre to find that Shimano have changed the connectors on the display unit so they couldn’t connect their PC to the bike via the Shimano ‘black box’ to try to restore the firmware. I left the bike with them and ordered the part myself (less than £20) and went back (the service centre’s part hadn’t arrived). They updated the firmware after a couple of false starts and the bike is now working OK.

The Fox Transfer seat post sticks if you put it part way down, so you have to release it, sit on it to get it all the way down and then get it to come all the way back up. This has improved slightly with use but hasn’t gone away completely. I’m waiting to hear from the Fox service centre about repair/replacement (though TBH I’d rather just put a BikeYoke dropper on).

Finally, the range on the bike is extremely disappointing. My riding has been a mixture of single track, muddy fields, and ungraded road with off-road riding in ‘trail’ and road riding in ‘eco’ and virtually no use of ‘boost’ at all. I’ve run the battery to zero from full charge twice and got 23-25 miles (around 40K) with 350 metres of climbing. The battery charge indicator drops slowly to 2 bars rapidly from 2 to 1 and then almost immediately goes to zero. Granted that the weather has been pretty cold, the bike is stored in a shed so the battery has been very cold and the rides have been in zero to maybe 4°C but given the predicted range from full charge on the display in ‘trail’ is 89K, this seems pretty poor. I’ve decreased the maximum assistance in ‘trail’ but feel I shouldn’t really have to do this. The EP8 motor is fine, (doesn’t feel that different from the previous model, though I have little experience) and yes, it does rattle a bit when descending but you either accept that or let it bug you…

MBR reviewed a version of the Meta 29 and didn’t really rate it but (though I’m obviously biased) I don’t think they really made much of an effort and the Signature has different suspension components. I agree that you feel high on the bike but as soon as you do anything vaguely technical you lower the seatpost and so it doesn’t matter to me. I feel that the bike definitely sizes small (I got the Large and I’m just short of 6ft tall and with the saddle right back it's just about OK) though the bike itself is pretty long (judging by positioning it in my car) and I misled myself by judging from a friends 2020 Meta Power 27.5 (Large), that felt significantly ‘larger’ to me and I definitely felt more ‘in’ the bike than ‘on’ it as compared to the 29.

I haven’t pushed the bike massively hard as yet but I think it rides well (better than I can ride it). It climbs well but it isn’t ideal for very tight single-track partly due to the weight and the length of the wheelbase but for anything else it seems great.

Overall, I think the bike is great but currently disappointed with the Shimano battery/motor and app support.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Iain

 

[R120]

I had the same issue with my Fox Factory dropper, it was warrantied by Silverfish (UK Fox) in late 2019 but recently it has started happening again - all the really did was pack more grease into it when they warrantied it from what I could tell! Might be worth checking if the post has any in it.

With regards to range, thats probably not far off realistic, in cold weather, muddy conditions, and with heavy tires. I dont think the EP8 with 625wh battery has that much more range than the e8000 with 504wh due to the more power it puts out.

I found on my e8000 that range drops a fair bit in winter due to having to slog through mud and crap in the UK, which takes more assistance than in better conditions.

 

[IainF]

"With regards to range, thats probably not far off realistic, in cold weather, muddy conditions, and with heavy tires. I dont think the EP8 with 625wh battery has that much more range than the e8000 with 504wh due to the more power it puts out."
Sigh! I'm not surprised that you say that but it's still a disappointment...If I ride out from home (about 10 miles to the trails) I can't really do any riding other than come home again!

 

[R120]

The problem is range is impacted by so many factors, your weight, bikes weight, tree choice, tyre pressure etc etc.

I would suggest playing around with the modes and setting on the app to see if you can improve it.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I, like you, was surprised by the low range on the EP8. Best I got was 25 miles in September and it did the same near instant reduction from levels 2, to 1 then absolute dead.

At the point of testing I was on a version without E-Tube support (pre production) so put it down to being an early firmware. But I’ve heard a few similar reports of this now.

I highly suspect Shimano released a firmware too quick to get the motor out to market. It definitely shouldn’t dip from 2 bars to zero bars so quick. Basically, 1 bar and it’s game over in less than a mile.

 

[IainF]

Thanks both.
Rob, interesting to see your experience so closely matches mine
R120, I agree that there are lots of variables but 50% of range (as predicted by the bike computer) is a lot to put down to cold weather and heavy going (and there wasn't that much of that)

 

[rb.]

I’ve found that the range when in trail and boost modes sucks on EP8. It’s less than a similar rider on a 500wh Levo in my experience. But when going slowly it can be much better. I did this ride mostly in eco and finished with 2 bars left. That’s nearly 2000m of steep climbing. But to be fair, one of the most fun parts about an ebike is not going super slow up the climbs. So still not a great selling point.

 

[rb.]

For the fox transfer have you tried loosening the seat collar clamp a bit? I know sometimes they act like you are describing if the clamp is way too tight.

 

[IainF]

Hi Ryan,
Kudos for that ride! I tried a shortish steep off-road climb with the motor off and the bike is geared to make it doable it but it's sloooow. A Meta in Eco wouldn't be my first choice for 2000m climb in 23 miles!
In terms of the seatpost, I've tried it out of the frame and when on the bike it's torqued to 5.5Nm (which is less than recommended I think). In both those situations it's continued to stick.
BTW, where is the ridge if you don't mind me asking?
Cheers
Iain

 

[rb.]

Hi Ryan,
Kudos for that ride! I tried a shortish steep off-road climb with the motor off and the bike is geared to make it doable it but it's sloooow. A Meta in Eco wouldn't be my first choice for 2000m climb in 23 miles!
In terms of the seatpost, I've tried it out of the frame and when on the bike it's torqued to 5.5Nm (which is less than recommended I think). In both those situations it's continued to stick.
BTW, where is the ridge if you don't mind me asking?
Cheers
Iain

Northern Ca, USA. We don’t really have a winter here in the San Francisco Bay Area. Rains maybe once a week and is perfect for riding all other days.

 

[IainF]

Hah! You can go off people you know
I'm afraid it's lots of mud and slush in the UK at the moment with lots more rain in the next couple of days.
In all seriousness though I suspect that your battery will be working more efficiently at your temperatures than ours.
Enjoy the weather!
Cheers
Iain

 

[IainF]

Range anxiety update!
Thought I'd try riding exclusively in Eco to see what happened.
I seemed to be able to ride pretty much anything in terms of climbs (as long as there was grip) in Eco though I didn't have as much of a smile on my face.
Distance 28 miles, 525m (1700 ft) and a fair distance of slogging through fields of heavy mud. Still had two bars on the battery indicator when I got home, so not bad I guess (though rapid drop from 2 to 1 to 0 bars may not have been far off).
I'll try mostly Trail next time with max torque limited to 70 and see how that goes. My prior ride (25 miles full to zero charge) was mostly in Trail with max torque 85 and clearly this makes a massive difference from Eco (maybe not a surprise).
We'll see what happens.
Cheers
Iain

 

[Vas]

IainF, this is an off-topic!!
English, not being my mother tongue, I really appreciate and enjoy your writing competenec as means of improving my writting english skills!
Hats off to you mate!!

Back to emtb topics now!

 

[IainF]

@Vas
Well OK!

 

[Darkyhs]

I wouldn't worry too much. This is from my ride from my house to the local hill, and back. All-day in Boost on the flat and Trail on the hills Had 1 bar left. It was around 12 degrees Celcius.

I am not the fittest and also quite heavy now with this COVID weight 90Kg's

 

[azzwethinkweiz]

I've found recently that if you can keep a good cadence going in eco mode on the flatter mild stuff and kick it into trail for the steep bits you can get some crazy good range out of the battery. With this ep8 motor in particular, it seems like proper cadence is 80% of the battle. In my experience around 75-85 cadence has worked really well for me.

 

[rb.]

I've found recently that if you can keep a good cadence going in eco mode on the flatter mild stuff and kick it into trail for the steep bits you can get some crazy good range out of the battery. With this ep8 motor in particular, it seems like proper cadence is 80% of the battle. In my experience around 75-85 cadence has worked really well for me.

I read that 90 is the most efficient. Though that’s too fast to be comfortable for me.

 

[IainF]

I'm happy to spin and on a road bike I tend to sit at a cadence of about 85-100.
Really impressed with Darkyhs range esp. being in Boost on the flat, but to be fair I can hit the 25kph in Eco on the road so I guess being in Boost on the flat may not use that much power anyway.
I'm still figuring it all out.
Will do a similar ride to my previous one tomorrow I think, with limited torque in Trail and see how it goes. Will try Eco on road, smooth single-track and Trail on rougher stuff.
Cheers
Iain

 

[Darkyhs]

To be honest, I can't be bothered to ride in eco 30 ish kilometers back and forth from my house to the local hill in ECO(yes I am also quite lazy since the lockdown started last year in March ). I have the second profile for real low power consumption. But for the moment(regular Shimano settings), 48KM is good. Not too much to climb(400mt elevation). But I am sure that if needed, I can squeeze enough power and distance if I plan on a long day in the saddle.
The power profile I used that day, was the "standard" one from Shimano. For long days I have put the following:

ECO - Lvl 1 - 27Nm - Lvl 2
Trail - Lvl 4 - 56Nm - Lvl 3
Boost - Lvl 6 - 70Nm - Lvl 4

Haven't tested it though, as in Portugal we have these restrictions and haven't gotten to a place with longer trails, higher hills. Once we will be back on track or vaccinated, let's see what this beast can do

 

[IainF]

Thanks for that Darkyhs, interesting.
If I get time tomorrow before I go out I might copy those settings and see how it goes.
It is a bit colder with us around 2°C today, so that will have an effect.
I think there's a fair amount of nuance to the settings options to maximise the range whilst preserving as much of the 'smile factor' that the motor adds to the ride.
Cheers
Iain

To be honest, I can't be bothered to ride in eco 30 ish kilometers back and forth from my house to the local hill in ECO(yes I am also quite lazy since the lockdown started last year in March ). I have the second profile for real low power consumption. But for the moment(regular Shimano settings), 48KM is good. Not too much to climb(400mt elevation). But I am sure that if needed, I can squeeze enough power and distance if I plan on a long day in the saddle.
The power profile I used that day, was the "standard" one from Shimano. For long days I have put the following:

ECO - Lvl 1 - 27Nm - Lvl 2
Trail - Lvl 4 - 56Nm - Lvl 3
Boost - Lvl 6 - 70Nm - Lvl 4

Haven't tested it though, as in Portugal we have these restrictions and haven't gotten to a place with longer trails, higher hills. Once we will be back on track or vaccinated, let's see what this beast can do

 

[head]

Thanks for this topic @IainF!

I was thinking about switching from Specialized Levo to SC Bullit, but I was afraid that range on Bullit with EP8 would be too small for me. 95% of my rides, I ride solely in Turbo mode and I'm all about downhill and making as many downhill laps as quicky as possible. The Bullit looks like a lovely bike, but I don't want less powerful motor and less range. I'll probably just do a bunch of upgrades on my Levo instead.

 

[IainF]

Thanks @head.
I wouldn't want you to think that my experience is necessarily true for everyone with an EP8 motor but it is my experience in the climate and terrain that I've been riding in.
I have to say that I don't think you would need to be in turbo all the time to take pretty much all the effort out of your shuttle runs but to be happy, the bike has to do what you expect it to do and that's why I'm a bit disappointed so far but still learning the best settings for my use case.
I guess your Levo will have a 700Wh battery anyway, won't it?
I'm not sure what range in a mix of Eco and Trail on an EP8 I would consider OK (interesting to think about) but so far it's less than I'd like!
Cheers
Iain

 

[head]

I have a 500Wh battery but I plan to buy a 700wh one. 500Wh is enough for me for 70-80% of my rides, but sometimes I want to ride longer.

 

[IainF]

If it has the same form factor you should be golden!

 

[melmark]

Range anxiety update!
Thought I'd try riding exclusively in Eco to see what happened.
I seemed to be able to ride pretty much anything in terms of climbs (as long as there was grip) in Eco though I didn't have as much of a smile on my face.
Distance 28 miles, 525m (1700 ft) and a fair distance of slogging through fields of heavy mud. Still had two bars on the battery indicator when I got home, so not bad I guess (though rapid drop from 2 to 1 to 0 bars may not have been far off).
I'll try mostly Trail next time with max torque limited to 70 and see how that goes. My prior ride (25 miles full to zero charge) was mostly in Trail with max torque 85 and clearly this makes a massive difference from Eco (maybe not a surprise).
We'll see what happens.
Cheers
Iain

Riding Eco in my area is not an option. Why use a 55 lb ebike in Eco to crawl up steep slopes when I can use a 30 lb carbon Santa Cruz analog? I am always in Trail, and lately Boost mode. For my relatively short high intensity local rides I have had no issues with battery life. But I agree with dropper issues and for some reason speed is limited to 18.5mph for my flat road home trip.

 

[melmark]

I, like you, was surprised by the low range on the EP8. Best I got was 25 miles in September and it did the same near instant reduction from levels 2, to 1 then absolute dead.

At the point of testing I was on a version without E-Tube support (pre production) so put it down to being an early firmware. But I’ve heard a few similar reports of this now.

I highly suspect Shimano released a firmware too quick to get the motor out to market. It definitely shouldn’t dip from 2 bars to zero bars so quick. Basically, 1 bar and it’s game over in less than a mile.

Hopefully this won't happen! Riding a 55 lb bike up a hill to home aint no fun. From 1 bar to dead in <1 mile is not good...

 

[melmark]

Are many of you using the app to modify settings? I have yet to do so.

 

[IainF]

Yes, knocked back the max assist in Trail, (85Nm doesn't seem to be necessary so far) and have slightly decreased the 'onset speed' of assistance in Boost which I think will make it a bit more controllable.

@melmark, If it's all about the downhill they I absolutely understand that you wouldn't want to have to work up hill. For me, I just want not to be completely knackered on the climb (don't mind a bit of work) so I've got a chance of being in reasonable shape for the downs.
In the end, as I say, the bike has got to do what you want for you and what I want for me!

Finally managed to get a charging adaptor to charge the battery off the bike, so will see if I get a bit more charge/mileage from a battery stored and charged at room temperature rather than 0°C!

 

[azzwethinkweiz]

Are many of you using the app to modify settings? I have yet to do so.

I am scared to connect to it after reading so many people causing errors with their bikes when connecting bluetooth. Although I think some of this stems from firmware updates... and having to send them in or take to a bike shop to get reset. The default settings seem well enough unless I am missing out on something.

 

[IainF]

I bricked my bike trying to do a firmware update so agree that the experience with the eTube app for that purpose may not be ideal! The problem is that the app corrupts the original firmware in trying to write the new version, so if the update fails you can't access the bike wirelessly. I had to visit a Shimano service centre to get the bike un-bricked and the firmware updated. I certainly wouldn't trust the app for firmware updates in the future. Unfortunately the alternative requires buying a 'black box' from Shimano (and an adaptor to allow the provided cable to attach to the display if you have a bike with an EP8 motor) at a total cost of nearly £200.

Using the app to change settings on the bike has not caused any problems for me so far so I'm happy to continue to use it for this.

HTH
Cheers
Iain