Bosch Gen 5 efficiency?

[nickf]

I've a question for any Bosch gen 5 owners about their experience of its efficiency and battery consumption.

I just test rode a Santa Cruz Vala for the day with the Bosch gen 5 motor and 600Wh battery. I rode a collection of steep natural rocky trails and did a 30km and +700m circuit at which point I had to call it a day because the battery was showing only 1 red bar on the controller display (12% remaining on the app). I had fully charged it before setting out, but the display fairly quickly dropped to 4 bars + 1 white bar (i,e 90%) so I presume it was only around 95% charged at the start. That would mean I used 80% of the 600Wh capacity, which seemed a lot to me.

I compared my ride stats from a previous ride of more or less the same circuit on my 2022 Trek Rail. This has the pre-smart system gen 4 motor and a 625Wh battery. Although the off-road circuit was more or less the same, on this occasion I had ridden to and from the start point by road which added another 15km to the total, and my battery usage was also more or less 80%. So that means 45km on the Rail compared to 30km on the Vala for more or less the same battery consumption.

I can imagine some inaccuracy in my estimation of the Rail's consumption, especially since the original Purion display only shows battery state in 20% increments, and it may have been colder by a few degrees C on the the day I rode the Vala which could affect battery usage. (Also my Rail has 25Wh more than the Vala.) Nevertheless, even taking these factors into account it does seem to me as if the range was considerably poorer with the gen 5 Vala then my old gen 4 Rail.

Am I mistaken? What do other gen 5 owners say? Thanks.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I've a question for any Bosch gen 5 owners about their experience of its efficiency and battery consumption.

I just test rode a Santa Cruz Vala for the day with the Bosch gen 5 motor and 600Wh battery. I rode a collection of steep natural rocky trails and did a 30km and +700m circuit at which point I had to call it a day because the battery was showing only 1 red bar on the controller display (12% remaining on the app). I had fully charged it before setting out, but the display fairly quickly dropped to 4 bars + 1 white bar (i,e 90%) so I presume it was only around 95% charged at the start. That would mean I used 80% of the 600Wh capacity, which seemed a lot to me.

I compared my ride stats from a previous ride of more or less the same circuit on my 2022 Trek Rail. This has the pre-smart system gen 4 motor and a 625Wh battery. Although the off-road circuit was more or less the same, on this occasion I had ridden to and from the start point by road which added another 15km to the total, and my battery usage was also more or less 80%. So that means 45km on the Rail compared to 30km on the Vala for more or less the same battery consumption.

I can imagine some inaccuracy in my estimation of the Rail's consumption, especially since the original Purion display only shows battery state in 20% increments, and it may have been colder by a few degrees C on the the day I rode the Vala which could affect battery usage. (Also my Rail has 25Wh more than the Vala.) Nevertheless, even taking these factors into account it does seem to me as if the range was considerably poorer with the gen 5 Vala then my old gen 4 Rail.

Am I mistaken? What do other gen 5 owners say? Thanks.

What was the temperature outside on the Vala vs the Rail?

In my experience the range is very similar

 

[nickf]

It was around 10C with the Vala. I rode the Rail on that same circuit a week ago and can't honestly recall the temperature then, but it couldn't have been more than 14C at best. Could a 4-5C difference in ambient temperature make that much impact? I really feel the cold intensely, and never go out if it's less than 6 or 7C outside, so I have not noticed any temperature effects on my battery when riding the Rail.

FYI the Vala was wearing the magic Mary radials which I had set at 18 PSI, compared to an Assegai/DHR2 combo on my Rail which I run at 16 PSI front, 18 rear. Yes, pretty low I know, but comparable pressures for the radials.

I wouldn't normally have commented on the difference in battery usage except it was so dramatic in this case.

 

[Durrti]

What was the temperature outside on the Vala vs the Rail?

In my experience the range is very similar

I have noticed that Auto on the Gen 5 seems a bit more powerful and uses a touch more battery than the Gen 4 in auto, but nothing like @nickf has seen. I think emtb is much more natural and efficient on the new motor.
(Comparing Wild to S180 same tire setup)
Cheers

 

[ficorama]

I have noticed that Auto on the Gen 5 seems a bit more powerful and uses a touch more battery than the Gen 4 in auto, but nothing like @nickf has seen. I think emtb is much more natural and efficient on the new motor.
(Comparing Wild to S180 same tire setup)
Cheers

I had a cx4 smart before. in my opinion, the engine power is reduced by modes, default factory settings. as far as I can see from my rides, I drive more in emtb, so it consumes the battery quickly. I rode the tour+ more on the smart because it felt like it had more power for pedaling uphill. I also noticed that it drains the battery faster than the smart, due to more driving in emtb.

 

[Mikerb]

It was around 10C with the Vala. I rode the Rail on that same circuit a week ago and can't honestly recall the temperature then, but it couldn't have been more than 14C at best. Could a 4-5C difference in ambient temperature make that much impact? I really feel the cold intensely, and never go out if it's less than 6 or 7C outside, so I have not noticed any temperature effects on my battery when riding the Rail.

FYI the Vala was wearing the magic Mary radials which I had set at 18 PSI, compared to an Assegai/DHR2 combo on my Rail which I run at 16 PSI front, 18 rear. Yes, pretty low I know, but comparable pressures for the radials.

I wouldn't normally have commented on the difference in battery usage except it was so dramatic in this case.

Magic mary has quite a bit of drag....and in radial form at the very low pressure you were running I would think that drag nearly doubles!! The whole point of the radial design is that it puts a wider footprint on the ground and at the low pressure you were running I would think it would be equivalent to running your Assegai flat!!

 

[Plummet]

Be warry of auto battery consumption if you are used to tour. Auto burns more.

 

[Rando_12345]

I did a huge ride the other day with my 600 and 800wh batteries. I'm 78kg, very out of shape, ~15degrees Celsius.

600Wh: got 1200m of climbing over 25 km with 5% left, 80%turbo with emtb to get back to the car at the end.

800Wh: got 1700m of climbing over 30km with around 15% left, all turbo.

So it seems to me that the 600Wh under delivers per WH with respect to the 800wh. As in compared to my previous system (Yamaha/giant) the 600Wh battery gives similar range as my previous bike with a 625, but the Bosch 800wh beats the giant 800wh by over 10%.

 

[nickf]

Be warry of auto battery consumption if you are used to tour. Auto burns more.

In my case i was riding on emtb mode on both the Vala and Rail, so the consumption should have been similar. I'm guessing that Mikerb may be right and that running the MMs at low pressures could have added significant drag.

 

[irie]

Made me think, dangerous I know

Always seem to get less battery range in winter and put this down to the cold. Perhaps it's also caused by running grippier tyres with more drag (and also lower pressures) in winter, and softer compounds?

We (wife and I) are running Maxxis High Roller 3's DD front DH rear for winter. Huge grip where it matters but on hard surfaces they're draggy and noisy as hell. Won't run these in summer.

 

[Plummet]

In my case i was riding on emtb mode on both the Vala and Rail, so the consumption should have been similar. I'm guessing that Mikerb may be right and that running the MMs at low pressures could have added significant drag.

Fair enough, sounds reasonable.

 

[Mikerb]

I think a variety of factors can lead to increased drag in winter. Air resistance is one ...if the air is denser/cold air carries more moisture.......extra rider clothing, progressively more weight in the form of mud added to tyres and frame...and probably rider!! Softer surfaces increasing rolling drag..........and that creates some conflicting best tyre combo scenarios.

So for example if a lot of the trail surface allows the tyre to penetrate 50mm, the wider the contact patch the greater the rolling resistance, so wider tyres and lower tyre pressures can actually create more drag. At the same time a tyre with open tread ( clears mud) and relatively tall knobs, AND has a fairly narrow contact patch, will penetrate the soft top trail surface better in terms of finding grip. For sticky muddy conditions in winter I run higher rear tyre pressures than in the summer when the trail top surface is mostly loose. All of which is well known in the rallying world. Personally I only run mud tyres on the rear ( spesh Hillbilly/ Maxxis Shortie), and any tyre that does not clog is fine for the front Magic Mary/DHF/ Michelin Wild Enduro, because the grip you ask for is largely for when the bike is leaned, so it is the knobs on the tyre edge that are important.

 

[Bman]

I’ve been disappointed in the 600wh on my Crestline with Gen 5 motor vs the 750wh battery on my Pivot Shuttle AM with the Gen 4 Race motor. In e-mtb, the Gen 4 seems to use noticeably less battery, both have same assist profiles (+2). Bought an 800wh battery to see if I can get more than 33% more than the 600.

 

[Plummet]

I’ve been disappointed in the 600wh on my Crestline with Gen 5 motor vs the 750wh battery on my Pivot Shuttle AM with the Gen 4 Race motor. In e-mtb, the Gen 4 seems to use noticeably less battery, both have same assist profiles (+2). Bought an 800wh battery to see if I can get more than 33% more than the 600.

Is it possible that gen 5 is smoother and actually outputting more power? Do you need +2?

 

[Bman]

Is it possible that gen 5 is smoother and actually outputting more power? Do you need +2?

No, same power and no, I don’t NEED +2, just trying for apples to apples comparison. I don’t NEED ANY assistance, but if I paid for it, why not?

 

[Sverre Andre]

Hi guys! Luckily I found this post by google search.
I've been rocking the Bosch Gen4 (non smart system) from 2020-24. In December i bought a new bike with DU384Y (Gen5) system. The bike is a Mondraker Prime hardtail emtb. This is the EXCACT same bike as I had before with Gen4 system. Same battery size, 625wh. Spec is 99% indentical. I swapped the drivetrain, wheels and tires over to the new bike as these are premium components. So, basicly the only thing different/new is the Bosch system.
I commute with this bike every day, all year. 23km each way. Always ride in TURBO mode while commuting. (100% asphalt, 450m elevation total.) The old Gen4 bike has done over 20K km, and I've NEVER needed to charge it to do a round trip on my commute. Even in heavy storm, -20C , snow and everything in between. Average speed on my Garmin is between 24 and 25km/h.
With the new bike (also with 625 battery), with same wheels, same tires, same everything, I've needed to charge the bike at work to get home without stepping down on power on several occations. I must say this is dissapointing.
I still got the Gen4 bike and have done some back to back testing, and the new Gen5 system power feels the same. (TURBO sat to +5 , dynamic at zero.)
First month I uses AUTO mode +5 / +1. I loved it. Super smooth and powerful. Bosch estimates batteryconsumption on this mode to be in between TOUR+ and TURBO. In my experience it uses just as much juice as TURBO +5 / +1. I went back to using TURBO, and I can do the round trip on calm days. In strong wind, no.

Anyone talked to Bosch about this?
(One thing to note when comparing battery life on Gen4 to Gen5, is that the displayed available battery differs if you have lights attached. With lights attached, 8% of battery is locked for lights. This is included in displayed battery on Gen4 , on Gen5 it's excluded.)

 

[irie]

If you can you switch batteries between the two bikes that would identify if it's a battery issue, or a motor issue, or perhaps a bit of both.

 

[nickf]

If you can you switch batteries between the two bikes that would identify if it's a battery issue, or a motor issue, or perhaps a bit of both.

That's a good suggestion, but if his previous battery was a non-smart system type then it won't work in the new bike.

 

[irie]

That's a good suggestion, but if his previous battery was a non-smart system type then it won't work in the new bike.

But perhaps new bike battery in the old bike, but don't know if have the same connectors...

 

[Sverre Andre]

If you can you switch batteries between the two bikes that would identify if it's a battery issue, or a motor issue, or perhaps a bit of both.

Not possible as the Smart System uses a different charging plug.

 

[nickf]

Hi guys! Luckily I found this post by google search.
I've been rocking the Bosch Gen4 (non smart system) from 2020-24. In December i bought a new bike with DU384Y (Gen5) system. The bike is a Mondraker Prime hardtail emtb. This is the EXCACT same bike as I had before with Gen4 system. Same battery size, 625wh. Spec is 99% indentical. I swapped the drivetrain, wheels and tires over to the new bike as these are premium components. So, basicly the only thing different/new is the Bosch system.
I commute with this bike every day, all year. 23km each way. Always ride in TURBO mode while commuting. (100% asphalt, 450m elevation total.) The old Gen4 bike has done over 20K km, and I've NEVER needed to charge it to do a round trip on my commute. Even in heavy storm, -20C , snow and everything in between. Average speed on my Garmin is between 24 and 25km/h.
With the new bike (also with 625 battery), with same wheels, same tires, same everything, I've needed to charge the bike at work to get home without stepping down on power on several occations. I must say this is dissapointing.
I still got the Gen4 bike and have done some back to back testing, and the new Gen5 system power feels the same. (TURBO sat to +5 , dynamic at zero.)
First month I uses AUTO mode +5 / +1. I loved it. Super smooth and powerful. Bosch estimates batteryconsumption on this mode to be in between TOUR+ and TURBO. In my experience it uses just as much juice as TURBO +5 / +1. I went back to using TURBO, and I can do the round trip on calm days. In strong wind, no.

Anyone talked to Bosch about this?
(One thing to note when comparing battery life on Gen4 to Gen5, is that the displayed available battery differs if you have lights attached. With lights attached, 8% of battery is locked for lights. This is included in displayed battery on Gen4 , on Gen5 it's excluded.)

You've clearly managed to eliminate all possible confounding factors so your comparable experience is much more reliable than mine single ride with the Gen 5 motor. Although I can't repeat the ride with the Vala/Gen 5 (because it was only hired out for the day) I have repeated the same ride (+ the out and back on tarmac) another few times on my Trek Rail/Gen 4 and on every occasion I consistently get 43km for around 90% with the Rail/Gen 4 compared to the 29km ridden on the Vala/Gen 5 for the same consumption.

Obviously different tyres and tyre pressures, the 625 vs 600Wh batteries, or maybe slightly colder temperatures might partially explain my comparable data, and the Vala ride is only a sample size of one. Nevertheless, given the huge discrepancy between the distances travelled I still think there's something odd here. Unless more people report similar experiences it might just be an outlier issue with your battery/motor? I told the bike shop where I hired the Vala about my experience and they are going to monitor it to see if other riders notice the same disappointing autonomy.

 

[ficorama]

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hi everyone. please give your opinion. it seems to me that the engine is a little loud? gen5 with 200km.

In yesterday's drive I noticed a loss of power, when I switch from tour+ to emtb I don't feel the increase in engine assistance.
is the same happening to anyone?

 

[nickf]

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hi everyone. please give your opinion. it seems to me that the engine is a little loud? gen5 with 200km.

In yesterday's drive I noticed a loss of power, when I switch from tour+ to emtb I don't feel the increase in engine assistance.
is the same happening to anyone?

Have you checked your motor mode support settings on the app?

 

[ficorama]

Have you checked your motor mode support settings on the app?

all settings as on the first day, at zero.

 

[nativeracer]

For me personally, the range has been really good. But I've also turned down the power in all modes to 60nm. I weigh 90kg and was able to climb 1565m of elevation and 17.5 miles with 9% battery still left. The majority of the ride was in EMTB mode with my last lap on full turbo. This particular ride averages 12.5% grade for 2.5 miles. Another ride was 21.5m and 1500m with 30% battery left. Three laps in eco and six laps in EMTB mode and turbo for the really short steep climb of 500ft@ 13%.
I don't see why I couldn't get 2000m conserving the battery and riding in eco.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

Is this with 600 or 800wh?

 

[Sverre Andre]

For me personally, the range has been really good. But I've also turned down the power in all modes to 60nm. I weigh 90kg and was able to climb 1565m of elevation and 17.5 miles with 9% battery still left. The majority of the ride was in EMTB mode with my last lap on full turbo. This particular ride averages 12.5% grade for 2.5 miles. Another ride was 21.5m and 1500m with 30% battery left. Three laps in eco and six laps in EMTB mode and turbo for the really short steep climb of 500ft@ 13%.
I don't see why I couldn't get 2000m conserving the battery and riding in eco.

Can't compare range with different settings. I can get fantastic range if I ride in ECO mode
For me, the point of choosing a full power ebike, is to get full power. I don't understand why not to choose a much lighter bike with SX motor if TOUR+ or reduced torque is once preferred setting. I've tried to talked to my riding buddies about this, as they always rides in TOUR+ mode with their 26kg bikes. A 20kg bike with a SX motor is super awesome on tech trails.

 

[nickf]

Can't compare range with different settings. I can get fantastic range if I ride in ECO mode
For me, the point of choosing a full power ebike, is to get full power. I don't understand why not to choose a much lighter bike with SX motor if TOUR+ or reduced torque is once preferred setting. I've tried to talked to my riding buddies about this, as they always rides in TOUR+ mode with their 26kg bikes. A 20kg bike with a SX motor is super awesome on tech trails.

Absolutely! For the purposes of this discussion we need to be comparing autonomy with like for like usage. If you turn the motor mode support settings down to -5 you are obviously going to get more range than if they were at +5. But the rider will be doing more of the work. The same is true for riding in Tour rather than Turbo.

 

[Sverre Andre]

I tried setting the Turbo mode to zero / zero to get more range. Compared to +5 / +1 it felt so boring and weak. But, yes it gave me a tad more range.

 

[emtbeast]

I've a question for any Bosch gen 5 owners about their experience of its efficiency and battery consumption.

I just test rode a Santa Cruz Vala for the day with the Bosch gen 5 motor and 600Wh battery. I rode a collection of steep natural rocky trails and did a 30km and +700m circuit at which point I had to call it a day because the battery was showing only 1 red bar on the controller display (12% remaining on the app). I had fully charged it before setting out, but the display fairly quickly dropped to 4 bars + 1 white bar (i,e 90%) so I presume it was only around 95% charged at the start. That would mean I used 80% of the 600Wh capacity, which seemed a lot to me.

I compared my ride stats from a previous ride of more or less the same circuit on my 2022 Trek Rail. This has the pre-smart system gen 4 motor and a 625Wh battery. Although the off-road circuit was more or less the same, on this occasion I had ridden to and from the start point by road which added another 15km to the total, and my battery usage was also more or less 80%. So that means 45km on the Rail compared to 30km on the Vala for more or less the same battery consumption.

I can imagine some inaccuracy in my estimation of the Rail's consumption, especially since the original Purion display only shows battery state in 20% increments, and it may have been colder by a few degrees C on the the day I rode the Vala which could affect battery usage. (Also my Rail has 25Wh more than the Vala.) Nevertheless, even taking these factors into account it does seem to me as if the range was considerably poorer with the gen 5 Vala then my old gen 4 Rail.

Am I mistaken? What do other gen 5 owners say? Thanks

Like already said, I would also point my finger to the Schwalbe radials. U already ride the Maxxis non-radials at extremely low pressures.

The Schwalbe radials are by some tests supposed to have cca 20% higer drag, have seen reports by other users on other online forums of extremely increased consuption on the radials.
In your case combine this, your extra low pressures, bit lower temperatures and a bit smaller battery, let's say all ads to cca 25% higher battery consumption overall

45km - 25% = 33,75km which is very near your number.

Also you can't realy equate access road km to uphill km, a better base value for emtb is altitude gain, distance should be second.

This guy on yt did quite some tests in Turbo mode on all the new batterys on the new Bosch Gen5 all on the same trail.

I asked about his trail, the area he does the tests has an average incline of cca 9 to 10%.

Altitude test in Turbo on the 600Wh



Distance test in Turbo on the 600Wh