Bosch Domination?

[Mteam]

This is a Mercedes vs BMW discussion ‍
Choose your weapon and fight for your life

Which is merc and which is BMW?

 

[R120]

Well Mercedes is clearly whatever is best

 

[R120]

For me the only issue with Shimano is that the range you get from their in house batteries doesn't match up with what you get out of a Bosch equivalent - however, and somewhat anecdotally, it does seem that the range you get from brands who use third party batteries with a Shimano motor is better - e.g the YT decoy seems to get far more range out of its 540wh battery than the slight capacity increase would indicate over Shimano's 504wh, and the OG Focus Jam2's 370wh battery gives nearly as much range as the 504wh - thats just based on riding with mates.

 

[lightning]

Shimano have locked their motor down better now.
The latest Shimano software blocks tuning or de restriction of the motor, in order to change the wheel circumference or set it to USA (20mph) you have to re install the earlier software, which can be done but is a bit of a faff.

l wasn't interested in messing with the wheel circumference, except to set it to the correct value (it was set 12cm too large)
But as a regular MTB rider l found the 15.5mph cutoff too restrictive particularly on the road.
20mph is much better, it actually reigns in the assistance at around 19mph, but it means l can average 18mph on the road, which is great.

 

[thbo]

For me the only issue with Shimano is that the range you get from their in house batteries doesn't match up with what you get out of a Bosch equivalent - however, and somewhat anecdotally, it does seem that the range you get from brands who use third party batteries with a Shimano motor is better - e.g the YT decoy seems to get far more range out of its 540wh battery than the slight capacity increase would indicate over Shimano's 504wh, and the OG Focus Jam2's 370wh battery gives nearly as much range as the 504wh - thats just based on riding with mates.

In that case it wouldn’t only be due to motor inefficiency on Shimano’s side, which I honestly already thought was slightly worse than Bosch. I have nothing to back that up though, other than Bosch being German and having much more fanbois.

But in this case I assume it’s the Shimano battery itself. I presume they aren’t lying about the single capacity or number of their cells, or using cheapo unbranded backyard factory cells with fake values though. Though there are several levels of capacity and price the cells typically used are pretty standard these days and near the top of what is available for mass production.

What could be the problem is what you find out when shopping for EVs. Is the stated capacity the maximum “theoretical” or is it excluding necessary buffers at the top and bottom? How advanced and defensive is the BMS (battery management system)?

I haven’t seen one big brand emtb specifying this in more detail, and the aforementioned anecdote would suggest Shimano is stating a value closer to the maximum theoretical value than the practical.

The business question is: do you not oversell the battery (and price it accordingly) and hope for positive press on the whole battery+motor package (and range), or do you fall into the numbers race of Wh, peak W and Nm?

 

[Zed]

Right up until l overtake him at 17mph, Shimano de restricted to "USA mode" 20mph with a bit of software, Bosch totally locked down and next to impossible.

Certainly not impossible, the answer is to get a Volspeed. Not cheap, no, but so far has worked flawless for me. And I can change the limiter using the regular handlebar control on the fly.

It's a minus for the Bosch, that it can't be hacked with a phone, for sure. But does it balance less noise & more power? I'm not sure. Both those are big hitters for me. I think I'm happier with the Bosch, unless the volspeed stops working, then the tables will turn

 

[Zed]

Pedal inputs with your Shimano motor in both eco and trail result in a far more natural feeling ride than any of bosch' modes

I'd be really surprised if the Shimano feels noticeably more natural than the Gen 4's Tour+. Because Tour+ feels exceedingly natural, equivalent to Specialized which I've owned, and much more so than the e8000. The EP8 being a lot louder would detract from seeming "natural" I would have thought. On my e8000 it certainly did.

eMtb mode I think is excellent, though I could certainly see those who like to pedal harder finding it too easy to get max power, and the overrun not seeming natural (I find it very useful though). Personally, I love it, but I want an ebike to feel like an ebike... much faster than a non-E bike. For me, the only downside with eMtb is it burning through battery

It would be nice to configure eMtb a little milder to get more range, but the reality is that would become less fun and I'd end up feeling like I do with Tour+, like I'm giving up fun for range.

 

[Zed]

But as a regular MTB rider l found the 15.5mph cutoff too restrictive particularly on the road.
20mph is much better, it actually reigns in the assistance at around 19mph, but it means l can average 18mph on the road, which is great.

I can select my limiter using the controller since I have a volspeed, and I too run 32km/h. I think that's the sweet spot. More and you just burn battery vs wind resistance. If they just had that available globally I don't think many people would derestrict past it.

 

[Zed]

Shimano have locked their motor down better now.
The latest Shimano software blocks tuning or de restriction of the motor

I guess, devices like the volspeed are going to be the only way for any motor going forward, by the looks of things...

 

[jooles]

To me the STUnlocker was to the e8000 what the new Shimano app is to the EP8. It’s a brilliant piece of 3rd party software that helps you preset modes according to desired outcome. I’m sure Shimano saw it and took heed.

I’m off to BPW today so have designed my own eco mode I can upload in seconds that will extend the range in climbs of my 504 e8000 battery blending leg power and motor. I can change this as get more knackered.

the ability to set to 20 helps most on fast flowing more pedally DH stuff where the e8000 has a large amount of motor drag. The newer units not having this aren’t as affected.

tbh my e8000 in trail gets me up most of the stuff I want to. Using ST I can get more torque assist in trail too. I rarely use boost, that’s unnatural however I’m still liking my e8000, battery external. Bikes goes a treat.

 

[Gary]

How much do you still ride normal bikes @Zed ?

 

[Zed]

To me the STUnlocker was to the e8000 what the new Shimano app is to the EP8. It’s a brilliant piece of 3rd party software that helps you preset modes according to desired outcome. I’m sure Shimano saw it and took heed.

Stunlocker certainly was excellent, and the benchmark out of all the ebike apps I've used, proprietary or otherwise. And derestricting was perfect - just set it to US, get 32km/h limit, job done. I really didn't take issue with the e8000 to be honest, I got rid of that bike because I felt it was undergunned with 140mm, and I think I was right. Might have been worth trying a better shock but that's always a dice roll.

 

[Zed]

How much do you still ride normal bikes @Zed ?

I really don't Gary... I got my new ebike 3 months ago, I sold my Knolly Fugitive to help fund it and haven't ridden an analog bike since.

I've been back and forth from ebike to regular since late 2017.

1. Get sick of analog MTB, struggling up steep hills just to descend. I'm really not interested in other fitness work so I try to ride up steep shit that maxes my heart rate 3 times a week. Develop exertion headaches from sustained high heart rate - which affect me outside of riding and are sort of migraine like, though not as painful.
2. Give up, get ebike. Ride ebike so much that the local trails kind of become meh.
3. Decide "hey I'm young enough to seriously work on my fitness, harden up", sell ebike, build up fairly exotic non-e bike. Maybe even get a road bike and plan long rides to drop weight and build aerobic fitness
4. Get bored with road biking and other proper fitness work. Go back to step 1

I've done this for a couple of cycles. (2018 Levo, Giant Trance Adv Pro 29, Giant Reign, Commencal Metapower, Knolly Fugitive, Orbea Wild FS). This time, I'm not going back lol. I need to save up anyway I did get longer travel this time and this bike eats up the roughest gnarliest trails around here so it's opened up a new set of challenges - doing those quicker instead of just surviving them. Bought a full face helmet to suit. I really should have gone longer travel sooner, I was ready for that and didn't realise it.

I made a deal with myself, if I get under 80kg, I'll think about a nice analog bike. Until then, it's going to end the same way, so I won't even consider it. I'm 96kg currently; for various reasons I just haven't been able to keep motivation for long enough to lose it. That weight loss isn't at all about exercise, it's about diet. I haven't given up trying on that front, but I know it's about food and not about riding an analog bike (or exercise at all).

I have though come to terms with the fact that I like the SPEED of an ebike, I want the unnatural acceleration. Nino Schurters' legs type of acceleration. When you run a higher power level it's like it's a different activity to regular mountain biking. And that's OK. I don't need to make it simulate the struggle of a non-e bike. It's ok to not feel bad about it, it doesn't matter if people whine, pull faces or have their ego squished a little as I fly past them on the uphill for the second time while their still grinding up once. It's ok to just turn up the fun dial. There's plenty of effort in the descent.

EDIT: There is actually one way I'd have a non-E bike even if I don't lose that weight, and that's a park bike. I have a few large financial goals and when they're done I've got trips to NZ planned, Queenstown to start with. A park bike could end up being a thing, a long travel bike I don't have to worry about the battery with, for chairlifts. Hope that dream comes to fruition!

 

[DrStupid]

They need to take the crank arms off these things, add some foot pegs.... oh yeah, and a throttle. Then race em.

That would be a motor test.

 

[Gary]

I really don't Gary

End of discussion then really, eh?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Bosch just took all but one place in the Finale Ligure EWS-E. Nicole Goldi was on a Levo.

 

[Pivot]

That proves that currently, Bosch has the best logistical support, and the best riders gravitate to it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

That proves that currently, Bosch has the best logistical support, and the best riders gravitate to it.

Or are we overlooking the possibility that if you have the largest, ugliest display with the crappiest buttons this drives people to pedal faster and harder so no one can see it ?

I know that's what I do, as well as sliding a sock over the handlebars. There's nothing worse than really old people coming up to you and saying they had that exact same bike in 1980 and the controller was dated then.

 

[jooles]

Rode a Trek Rail with Gen 4 a bit today and tbh the biggest difference is the ability to decouple the gear above assist speed. That’s miles ahead of the gloop I have to ride with the e8000.

however in terms of how natural the feel is in Shimano eco/trail vs Bosch tour/eMtb there isn’t much in it although didn’t do any tech climbs.

At 6’2” the Rail Large felt like a child’s bike. Very short reach even vs. My Ranger L and against my Geometron tiny. Think I’m just used to more cockpit room. Perspective.

ran the Rail down some red at BPW and it’s plush but didn’t set me alight even compared to my old Ranger and not as stable at higher speeds through rough as the Geometron.

Really think bikes are what you get used to so very hard to objectively say this motor is better than that or those geometry and kinematic are better than these etc. It’s down to what suits your style of riding, your size, fitness and what has become the ‘norm’ for you.

Today showed me just that and how hard it must be for you reviewers to get to stay objective.

We all need to just ride safely, enjoy and understand differences of opinion and try, well give it a go, not to judge. One persons fav bike is another’s nightmare…

 

[R120]

I think its just that the best riders happen to be on brands sponsored by Bosch, plain and simple.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Rode a Trek Rail with Gen 4 a bit today and tbh the biggest difference is the ability to decouple the gear above assist speed. That’s miles ahead of the gloop I have to ride with the e8000.

Surprised at this. There’s a massive difference in feeling in power delivery and torque from the Bosch Gen 4 and E8000 in my experience. Was the Trek new and updated with the 85Nm mode / EMTB mode? I assume it was as it’s been around for a while.

The difference to me is night and day. Bosch punches it’s way up technical stuff, delivering the power in a predictable way with decent over run and kickdown grunt.

In back to back tests the Shimano is a fair bit slower and noticeable less powerful.

 

[R120]

I was on a rail last weekend and it made my E8000 look like a penny farthing next to a pinarello in terms of grunt.

 

[jooles]

Yep Gen 4 didn’t do a punchy tek climb but on fire road very similar. I have fettled with ST to deliver specific power/assist in each mode that makes it feel very different to the stock tune options though. Again customising makes its personal to the user.

Also the geometry of a bike matters in climb and DH as much as a motor.

downhill the Trek is plush and think I’d need one with a huge amount more reach than the L to feel comfortable. The feeling was that the CS were shorter for the FC weighting body forward so if you are used to riding off the back of a bike mat suit better. I tend to ride central with majority of weight through pedals unless real steep drops etc.

 

[thbo]

Bosch just took all but one place in the Finale Ligure EWS-E. Nicole Goldi was on a Levo.

View attachment 71632

I think this thread evolved into something else than you think

Anyway, not the “power stages” where motors make the most difference this time? All three power stages had one other motor on 2nd, 3rd or 4th. That would be two times a Brose S Mag and once a Bafang M500(!).

With the humongous amount of riders on bikes with deals with Bosch, it’s almost standard equipment and starting to get ridiculous singling it out as a winning element. So, as there’s Bosch all over the results incl the bottom (how’s that reverse “top list”?), the average list placement, or that top-5 achievement share for these stages, is won by “the outsiders”: brothers from another mother, Brose & Bafang.

That’s for Men. The Women only had those 4 entrants listed, and Bosch both “won” and was last (after a Brose again)

Yes, statistics manipulation is fun. But I’m getting pretty tired of looking up enduro results, photos of riders and ebike manufacturer websites just to get a subtle point across that there’s too much emphasis placed on the “EU box rule” 250W motor component in enduro-e bike racing. I just wish the top riders’s physique and technique, and all the work put into bike geometry, material tech, weight distribution, and suspension linkage etc would get relatively the same appreciation as in analog bike racing.

That’s not the same as saying I can’t personally prefer one motor over another for my very unprofessional untimed mountain trail trips though. And, like [mention]Rob Rides EMTB [/mention], I do actually like to follow the news from the EWS-E too.

Btw, most €10k+ top enduro world series specced emtbs are probably bought by chubby guys pushing 50+ like me, and oddly the EWS results by motor (or bike or any component class metric!) doesn’t translate to trail dominance after all

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I think this thread evolved into something else than you think

Anyway, not the “power stages” where motors make the most difference this time? All three power stages had one other motor on 2nd, 3rd or 4th. That would be two times a Brose S Mag and once a Bafang M500(!).

With the humongous amount of riders on bikes with deals with Bosch, it’s almost standard equipment and starting to get ridiculous singling it out as a winning element. So, as there’s Bosch all over the results incl the bottom (how’s that reverse “top list”?), the average list placement, or that top-5 achievement share for these stages, is won by Bafang ahead of Brose.

That’s for Men. The Women only had those 4 entrants listed, and Bosch both “won” and was last (after a Brose again)

Yes, statistics is fun. But I’m getting pretty tired of looking up enduro results, photos of riders and ebike manufacturer websites just to get a subtle point that there’s too much emphasis placed on the “EU box rule” 250W motor component in enduro-e bike racing across I just wish the top riders’s physique and technique, and all the work put into bike geometry, material tech, weight distribution, and suspension linkage etc would get relatively the same appreciation as in analog bike racing.

That’s not the same as saying I can’t personally prefer one motor over another for my very unprofessional untimed mountain trail trips though.

Btw, most €10k+ top enduro world series specced emtbs are probably bought by chubby guys pushing 50+ like me, and oddly the EWS results by motor doesn’t transfer to trail dominance after all

Excellent points ??

And the mighty Bafang had a motor in there too! Amazing.

 

[Gary]

I tend to ride central with majority of weight through pedals unless real steep drops etc.

Ah... A graduate of the Chris Porter skool of no manuals and plow everything.
Please tell me you intentionally failed his saddle angle exam

 

[jooles]

Ah... A graduate of the Chris Porter skool of no manuals and plow everything.
Please tell me you intentionally failed his saddle angle exam

I tend to ride sitting on the bars facing backwards ;-)

 

[Pivot]

I think this thread evolved into something else than you think
…
Btw, most €10k+ top enduro world series specced emtbs are probably bought by chubby guys pushing 50+ like me, and oddly the EWS results by motor (or bike or any component class metric!) doesn’t transfer to trail dominance after all

I agree completely and I fit described profile. I have higher-end eMTB with SP8 motor and I ride it on low-power setting to get a better workout.
Couldn’t care less about trail dominance, I like the fonts & colours on the frame, I am getting fitter and I lost 10kg in the process. What’s not to like.

 

[Zed]

End of discussion then really, eh?

Not sure why, if the discussion in question is whether Bosch can feel natural like EP8. Do I not qualify because I don't ride a non-e bike? Weird. But if you say so, sure.

 

[Zed]

I think this thread evolved into something else than you think

Anyway, not the “power stages” where motors make the most difference this time? All three power stages had one other motor on 2nd, 3rd or 4th. That would be two times a Brose S Mag and once a Bafang M500(!).

I know from e-bike riding with a friend who is a serious road cyclist, the humans' power output and of course weight still matter a LOT! He still left me for dead on uphill stuff. When you take a human whose legs are pumping out an extra 150-200w continually, that just adds to the bikes power, and that's much more than the difference from one motor to another. Same with being 10kg lighter, still a huge difference. All that stuff still matters. We're talking about pros so they should all be highly trained but then, this EWS-E not EWS and I'd wager they're not all so close to each other like in the big league.